Canadian Premier League

[1996]

Do I really want to go back to going to games in Toronto with 1000 people in the stands like the days of playing in the old CSL or the old A League days sorry no. I'm enjoying going to games with 30 000 people in the stands in Toronto or seeing games on TV from a sold out Saputo stadium or seeing over 20 000 at BC  when watching Vancouver play on TV. I don't think it will ever happen where the 3 MLS Canadian teams pull out of MLS, but if by some crazy way it ever happened that's the kind of crowds you would see back to your 1000 to 2000 a game in these 3 cities. I can feel for the soccer fans who live in non MLS cities in Canada wanting a Canadian league so that these cities have a pro soccer  team to follow and call their own, however, don't go trying to break up something that is working attendance wise in these three MLS cities, have a Canadian league by all means but keep the 3 Canadian MLS  teams where they are they are doing just fine thank you and all 3 are pretty popular within their own cities,

[Ansem]

26 minutes ago, 1996 said:

Do I really want to go back to going to games in Toronto with 1000 people in the stands like the days of playing in the old CSL or the old A League days sorry no. I'm enjoying going to games with 30 000 people in the stands in Toronto or seeing games on TV from a sold out Saputo stadium or seeing over 20 000 at BC  when watching Vancouver play on TV. I don't think it will ever happen where the 3 MLS Canadian teams pull out of MLS, but if by some crazy way it ever happened that's the kind of crowds you would see back to your 1000 to 2000 a game in these 3 cities. I can feel for the soccer fans who live in non MLS cities in Canada wanting a Canadian league so that these cities have a pro soccer  team to follow and call their own, however, don't go trying to break up something that is working attendance wise in these three MLS cities, have a Canadian league by all means but keep the 3 Canadian MLS  teams where they are they are doing just fine thank you and all 3 are pretty popular within their own cities,

Very touching... Gerber and the USSF would agree with me on this.

Let me put things in perspective.

A-CSA mandate is to grow the game in Canada and produce Canadian talent capable of getting us to the world Cup and perform and produce results. Not to please 30k fans going to BMO field like you. It's a bigger picture thing...you see?

B-Less than 5% of MLS players are Canadians. Lesso than half of those play for our national team or good enough to do so because they aren't getting enough minutes. In a nutshell, MLS contribution to the Canadian program has been almost none existant. We haven't gotten better and haven't got the result we wanted. So the status quo you love and you think is satisfying for the big 3 markets isn't one bit. The end game is to cheer for Canadians at the world Cup, not Americans in the big 3 markets that haven't won anything.

C-Everyone always knew about the best solution to fix this. A domestic league AND a change in the domestic rule in MLS. We need both to improve our national program. So if MLS still refuse to make the change, why on earth should the CSA continue to grant them the right to operate within Canada? All they are doing is making money on our back and growing their league thanks to us. Change the rules in MLS or get out of Canada. That's more than fair.

D-Although I came to realize that CSA threat isn't imminent, it's more than legitimate and very real. A successful CPL growing to match or surpass CFL business model and TV contract would provide the right environment to execute that threat. 

MLS cannot afford to lose our 3 markets which would be a HUGE blow to their league, TV contract, revenue and credibility. So I firmly believe that the threat will force MLS hand to come up with something to temporarily satisfy us, but if CPL ever become a big hit, I could definitely see that happen if MLS stubbornly stays on the status quo

In the end my friend. Blame MLS. The ball is in their court now.

[AnOutsider]

1 hour ago, matty said:

They did edit de Guzman's comments last week

MLSsoccer.com: “I still want to be a part of this. I still bleed red,” said de Guzman. “This is my degree right here, Canadian football. I still believe we’re going to major places.”

SportsNet.ca: “I still want to be a part of this,” he said. “I still bleed red. This is my degree right here, Canadian football. And I still believe we’re going to go to major places. We’re going to eventually have our league. That’s going to be something that could definitely help us make a World Cup at some point, and I want to be a part of that.”

10 days ago

Daniel Squizzato

MLS didn't cut short the quote. I just didn't include the full quote in my article.

[AnOutsider]

Good God, CPL fanboyism has gone crazy.

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Premier_League

" In a March 2016 interview, Major League Soccer commissioner Don Garber indicated that, from his understanding, the league would be a "lower division" of the Canadian soccer league system but he had not had discussions with organizers of the new league.^[1]"

Anyone else finds it weird that Garber comments on CPL being a lower league within the Canadian structure made it on Wikipedia page and still being there?

Perhaps MLS being challenged in Canada bothers them more than we think.

With all the negative things said about MLS in Europe and all the quotes out there, it's unlikely those quotes would make it to MLS Wikipedia page...

Just saying

You go from

"Garber comments on CPL being a lower league within the Canadian structure made it on Wikipedia page and still being there?"

to

"Perhaps MLS being challenged in Canada bothers them more than we think."

Talk about overstretching...

You know literally everyone can edit Wikipedia pages?

Your assertion is utterly ridiculous unless you can prove the person put that part on the page was on MLS duty.

[matty]

50 minutes ago, AnOutsider said:

10 days ago

Daniel Squizzato

MLS didn't cut short the quote. I just didn't include the full quote in my article.

I figured it just wasn't included and was making a joke related to the tinfoil hatness of the comment 

[lazlo_80]

Ansem I think you overestimate the cards Canada holds with the MLS to some degree. Would the MLS losing the three Canadian markets be a HUGE blow to the league? I'm not so sure. I think Toronto would make a dent, but would the league be too upset with losing a market like Montreal? I'm not so sure. Especially if it gave them an open slot to put a team in a bigger American market. And please don't interpret this as a knock on fans in Montreal or me thinking they don't deserve a team, this is all hypothetical. With the exception of Toronto most of the other big US leagues don't have any presence in Canada and rarely show much interest in making that move. TV contracts in Canada are peanuts compared to American ones.

I also don't think your point A is as black and white as you make it. If the CSA's mandate is to grow the game in Canada how could alienating a fan base in the biggest market as well as destroy a business model that was funding one of the best academies in the country be a good thing for growing the game? It's fair to be frustrated with the MLS and their treatment of Canadians, and Toronto FC's position in that but what you're suggesting would be akin to the CSA cutting off it's nose to spite its face.

The good news is it sounds like a new rule change will be announced to help with Canadians in MLS.

[reme90]

First time promoted club CD Leganes played Barca today, in a 10K stadium. Stupid huh? In North America, this kind of shenanigans would never be allowed in our big time First Division League with a minor league stadium like that. And serious franchises like the Chicago Fire, which is a PROPER successful big city First Division franchise with big time stars, can not be asked to play in such conditions. 

What a bush league this La Liga thing is. Probably won't last long, or even if it does, they will never attract big stars to that league, who wants to play in 10K shed? 

OR

Maybe the myth that each club has to have a Billionaire to finance $200 million stadiums is not really true. 
Maybe the myth that a smaller club will never attract fans when in close proximity to an established major club is not true. 

Do you know Leganes' brand? Cucumbers. Yeah, they are the Cucumbers.

Sounds stupid to me, but you know what, I'm not from there and apparently Cucumbers means something special for the community that club represents. Can you imagine any corporation or franchise using cucumbers as it's brand???

That's because Leganes is a club not a franchise. 

After 80 minutes of domination by Barca, after being down 5 goals, giving up a penalty, missing at least 3 good chances to score, the stadium was still full. A minute later they scored a cracker on a free kick and the whole 10 thousand sold out stadium stood up and cheered like they won the Champions League. Nobody had left and walked out in disgust, nobody was stuffing their faces with nachos and hot dogs, nobody was on their phone taking selfies. In fact, they singing Cucumber songs and how their children would have cucumber babies or something like that haha. I probably imagined that. 

My point is, a club represents a community, the community in turn supports the club. A franchise represents a Billionaires idea of what the community wants to buy. In turn consumers in that community buy, but like all consumers they only support you until they want to buy something else. Which is why territory rights and monopoly exists in Franchises. Consumers abandon you when you don't meet their expectations. Consumers want to be entertained, Supporters want to belong. 

Wouldn't it be great if a 10K stadium in KW, Regina, or Moncton had a club and wouldn't it be great if an investor didn't need to risk everything to try and make that happen. Wouldn't we have more investment if they could start small and build a club, an identity and compete in a smaller regional division and build excitement as they inch closer to promotion into Division 1?

Isn't that worth fighting for? Shouldn't we demand that? Think of all the Canadian kids who would have a chance to develop and prove their worth in clubs all over the country?

Maybe, 6 franchises is all we want, 6 of them that struggle and always carry the minor league tag to MLS (kill me now). Maybe 8 Franchises if the economy is good and some rich guy wants to bleed money for a vanity project. SIGH, 

We deserve more, the sport deserves more. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

13 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

Are you aware that there's only 1 Canadian MLS player  in the US who isn't a permanent resident?

Yes, and where are you even going with that? It's not directly related to what I posted which was clearing up the possible misconception that Canada is restricted to 9 roster spots in MLS. There's a reason why I posted that if we produced more players like Cyle Larin, Anthony Totera might still be working at selling season tickets for the North York Rockets. I don't think the youth development system in Canada has done a good enough job (there may be huge registration numbers, but most of it is a glorified babysitting service) and see that as being the main reason for failure to get anywhere in World Cups and the main reason why the entertainment product has not been high enough over the last 30 years to attract and sustain pro level crowds for teams with predominantly Canadian rosters.

I hope the rule change goes through, but I seriously doubt that there are more than a handful of players that are truly being affected negatively by its absence, as things stand at the moment. If there really were a large number of MLS level Canadian players being restricted from playing in MLS by the roster rules, why did FC Edmonton field a team without a single Canadian in it for the first time ever recently in an NASL game? Also, if US based MLS teams are actively excluding Canadians, because the roster rules are an insurmountable impediment, why would they even bother to have 15 Canadians on their USL rosters? Once that's factored in along with the players playing USL in Canada there were 93 players on MLS and MLS affiliated USL rosters this summer. The key is that we need more of them to be as good as Cyle Larin.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

16 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

Getting 5,000 fans for a league playing at an NASL level is not infeasible...

It would need to be higher than that and it's not enough to just "get" them, they also need to pay, which is something a lot of the announced attendance in Ottawa is not doing at the moment. Break even in Ottawa is 7500 and it's 9000 in Edmonton and that's with budgets that are probably significantly lower than you envisage for CPL. Neither of the NASL teams is even close to balancing their budget at the moment in what should be the best available Canadian markets not in MLS. The bottom line is that everybody understands why having more Canadian pro teams with lots of Canadian on their rosters would be a good thing and I don't think anyone is opposed to that in principle. The problem is that somebody has to be willing to do a Lamar Hunt or a Phil Anschutz and burn through $100 million dollars waiting a decade or so for the business model to stabilize. Good luck with that!

[Viruk42]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It would need to be higher than that and it's not enough to just "get" them, they also need to pay, which is something a lot of the announced attendance in Ottawa is not doing at the moment. Break even in Ottawa is 7500 and it's 9000 in Edmonton and that's with budgets that are probably significantly lower than you envisage for CPL. Neither of the NASL teams is even close to balancing their budget at the moment in what should be the best available Canadian markets not in MLS. The bottom line is that everybody understands why having more Canadian pro teams with lots of Canadian on their rosters would be a good thing and I don't think anyone is opposed to that in principle. The problem is that somebody has to be willing to do a Lamar Hunt or a Phil Anschutz and burn through $100 million dollars waiting a decade or so for the business model to stabilize. Good luck with that!

To be fair, as someone who lives in Ottawa I look at the schedule and say "huh?" pretty much every game. Why should I care about Fort Lauderdale or "Rayo OKC"? But I'd love for us to beat a team from the GTA, or Kingston (Queen's just spent 20mil to upgrade their football stadium, which can now seat 8,500, so there could be a decent venue already built). Hell, even Edmonton doesn't matter that much to me (ah yes, that famous Ottawa-Edmonton rivalry......). And as a poor grad student, I can't afford to go to many games, so I only go to ones that excite me - like when we beat the Whitecaps. 

 

4 hours ago, reme90 said:

First time promoted club CD Leganes played Barca today, in a 10K stadium. Stupid huh? In North America, this kind of shenanigans would never be allowed in our big time First Division League with a minor league stadium like that. And serious franchises like the Chicago Fire, which is a PROPER successful big city First Division franchise with big time stars, can not be asked to play in such conditions. 

What a bush league this La Liga thing is. Probably won't last long, or even if it does, they will never attract big stars to that league, who wants to play in 10K shed? 

OR

Maybe the myth that each club has to have a Billionaire to finance $200 million stadiums is not really true. 
Maybe the myth that a smaller club will never attract fans when in close proximity to an established major club is not true. 

Or maybe people from the town of Leganés, Spain, which was founded almost 600 years before Canada was, simply happen to be more into soccer than we are here? Comparing Spain and Canada in soccer is about as dumb as, well, comparing them in ice hockey. Man, the Spanish national team sucks, did you know Ottawa has more rinks than Spain? Can you imagine, the Montreal Canadiens playing in a shitty barn like the Spanish do? and they have no outdoor rinks! etc etc

If you're going to compare Canadian soccer to another country, you have to choose one that is similar. So if you're looking at Europe, the closest ones would be the nordic countries, so look at how Norway, Sweden, and Finland set up their leagues. However, it still doesn't quite match us for population distribution - like us, most of their population is in the south, but unlike us, they're a lot smaller longitudinally. Other countries where soccer is not #1 that you could look at include places like India, where cricket rules, except they also don't have the population distribution issue. The US of course is an option, but while they both don't rate soccer that highly and have quite a wide population distribution, they also just have so many people and so much money that it's hard to compare (the New York metropolitan area has 2/3rds of Canada's entire population).

No, the best example is Australia. Soccer is not #1 there either, their populace is spread out over a large area just like ours without the massive numbers that the US has. They also struggled without a league for a while, before founding the A-League in 2004 with just 8 teams. That has since expanded to 10, and though they have had some issues, they average about 12k fans per game. 

And, oh look, they use the "franchise model", with no promotion or relegation. And it's working you say? Wow, fancy that!

[1996]

I will totally be into the Canadian MLS teams pulling out of the MLS when the Canadian NHL teams, when Canada's favourite team the Blue Jays or the Raptors all pull out of their leagues to go play in Canadian leagues. Moreover, Canadian players in these other sports are playing in these leagues on merit because they are good and the same should apply for Canadian soccer players in the MLS if you are good enough you will make it even on American MLS teams if not then you don't simple as that just like the other sports leagues . The MLS in the three Canadian cities has proved to all the soccer haters in the mainstream media and the general  public that  soccer is pretty popular as a spectator sports in Canada if you put a team in the top North American  soccer League in some of the biggest Canadian cities , and , Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal are proving this with their attendances so far.

[Macksam]

9 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Yes, and where are you even going with that? It's not directly related to what I posted which was clearing up the possible misconception that Canada is restricted to 9 roster spots in MLS. There's a reason why I posted that if we produced more players like Cyle Larin, Anthony Totera might still be working at selling season tickets for the North York Rockets. I don't think the youth development system in Canada has done a good enough job (there may be huge registration numbers, but most of it is a glorified babysitting service) and see that as being the main reason for failure to get anywhere in World Cups and the main reason why the entertainment product has not been high enough over the last 30 years to attract and sustain pro level crowds for teams with predominantly Canadian rosters.

I call bull shit. The first 5 years of Toronto FC's existence, the team had roster compositions that were extremely bad to the point it would have been no better than having it predominantly Canadian, which sometimes it was actually. That didn't deter crowds. Like I stated before, it's all about having a professional product in place. If BMO field was built this year and the CPL was launching in conjunction with a Toronto club playing out of BMO, the hype for the team that was seen in 2007 would be the same. It's all about presenting a professional product.

We all know Canadians aren't "restricted" to just 9 spots. However, the main argument people are making is that Canadians are at a severe disadvantage at succeeding in MLS. If guys like Jacob Peterson, Dan Gargan and Chad Barret were Canadian, their careers would have ended the moment TFC gave them the boot. We have a lot of guys in that mold who can't make it due to the rules at hand.

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, Viruk42 said:

To be fair, as someone who lives in Ottawa I look at the schedule and say "huh?" pretty much every game. Why should I care about Fort Lauderdale or "Rayo OKC"? But I'd love for us to beat a team from the GTA, or Kingston (Queen's just spent 20mil to upgrade their football stadium, which can now seat 8,500, so there could be a decent venue already built). Hell, even Edmonton doesn't matter that much to me (ah yes, that famous Ottawa-Edmonton rivalry......). And as a poor grad student, I can't afford to go to many games, so I only go to ones that excite me - like when we beat the Whitecaps. 

I was there yesterday for the opening and was actually thinking the same thing - nice looking stadium especially from the TV shots I saw on the scoreboard.

Too bad that Kingston's only got 120,000 people and wouldn't draw anywhere near high enough to support a team.

[Complete Homer]

4 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

I was there yesterday for the opening and was actually thinking the same thing - nice looking stadium especially from the TV shots I saw on the scoreboard.

Too bad that Kingston's only got 120,000 people and wouldn't draw anywhere near high enough to support a team.

And before someone points out students - attendance to varsity football games outside of the opener, homecoming, and playoffs are pretty poor. Most students don't have time, and the ones who do usually don't have sports at the top of their list. That is with free tickets and being walking distance to the stadium

It's a nice idea, and if a philanthropic type comes along who doesn't care about losing money shows up it could work, but I wouldn't bet on Kingston seeing anything above L1O

[Gopherbashi]

Just for fun (re my post above), I decided to check out what OHL attendances were like (since they're the only notable sports league to have teams in the smaller Ontario cities that some of us have stretch goals for in terms of teams).

I was actually pleasantly surprised.  I'm not saying that these numbers would be the same for a CPL team, but they're certainly higher than I thought they'd be.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=OHL1989&sid=2016

[Gopherbashi]

1 minute ago, Complete Homer said:

And before someone points out students - attendance to varsity football games outside of the opener, homecoming, and playoffs are pretty poor. Most students don't have time, and the ones who do usually don't have sports at the top of their list. That is with free tickets and being walking distance to the stadium

Yeah, not to mention that most of the season would take place during the student desert of May - August.

[canucklefan]

1 hour ago, 1996 said:

I will totally be into the Canadian MLS teams pulling out of the MLS when the Canadian NHL teams, when Canada's favourite team the Blue Jays or the Raptors all pull out of their leagues to go play in Canadian leagues. Moreover, Canadian players in these other sports are playing in these leagues on merit because they are good and the same should apply for Canadian soccer players in the MLS if you are good enough you will make it even on American MLS teams if not then you don't simple as that just like the other sports leagues . 

The MLS have 20-30 Canadians, and 500 Americans... Is anyone going to try convince the competition is fair in MLS, that there can't be actually more Canadians because 500 Americans have more merit than others Canadians trying to make it to the MLS? I agree there's definitely various issues in Canada with player development but  to find 1 Canadian for every 25 Americans in the league, it's not about merit alone.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You do realize that they have about ten times our population? Given the advantages of being able to play outdoors year round across the southern states and the heavy emphasis placed on high school sports and the NCAA full ride scholarship combined with PDL pathway (less than perfect compared to Europe but still a lot better than anything we had in place pre-MLS academy programs) that really doesn't look in any way outrageous to me. A rule change would help a bit and definitely should be made, but it is not going to suddenly transform the situation and it has been disingenuous of Victor Montagliani to suggest otherwise, in my opinion, but politicians usually tell people what they want to hear rather than getting people to face unpalatable truths.

[Complete Homer]

^Montagliani is about to take up a way higher position than CSA President. His career trajectory is set, he's not campaigning or spinning lies, he's trying to get the best deal for Canada as possible. If anything, he is taking a personal risk by pissing off the USSF, which he will need to work with as CONCACAF'S president. 

A rule change today wouldn't accomplish much, but the eventual academy spillover has to be solved ahead of time - either by CPL or by a rule change. Guys like Callum Irving, signed by MLS and expected to be drafted first round, shouldn't go undrafted because of their passports. 

The couple of North American based stars we manage to produce (Larin, Dero, etc) will never have an issue with getting playing time, as they are worth the international spot. But what about a guy like Osorio? He is a solid starter, but if he doesn't fit TFC's formation well one year, you better hope VWC/IMFC wants him, otherwise he is a useless trade asset that will be out of contract or buried on the bench. 

Even if the rule changed pushed the dial a measly bit and we had a one or two extra guys getting 2000 minutes in MLS by next cycle, it could be the difference between playing a real RB or putting a midfielder there. That adds up. Long term, if we get 8 more academies with CPL, there is a supply of players that may be worth poaching as cheap domestic prospects. 

Vic is trying to position Canada well before leaving for bigger and better things. That much is pretty clear. However, this is the CPL thread, there's no need to derail this conversation further with the MLS rule change debate

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

2 hours ago, 1996 said:

when the Canadian NHL teams pull out of their leagues 

That would actually get me interested in hockey again. 

[ThiKu]

The best post in this entire discussion was the one earlier on this place re: rivalries. Indeed, why would I go out of my way to watch WFC2 play Rio Grande? Why do I care? But, if Surrey United SC had a CanPL team and they were playing Calgary, or the Okanagan or Victoria.....I'd care about that.

[canucklefan]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You do realize that they have about ten times our population? Given the advantages of being able to play outdoors year round across the southern states and the heavy emphasis placed on high school sports and the NCAA full ride scholarship combined with PDL pathway (less than perfect compared to Europe but still a lot better than anything we had in place pre-MLS academy programs) that really doesn't look in any way outrageous to me. A rule change would help a bit and definitely should be made, but it is not going to suddenly transform the situation and it has been disingenuous of Victor Montagliani to suggest otherwise, in my opinion, but politicians usually tell people what they want to hear rather than getting people to face unpalatable truths.

I can't believe that we are in 2016 and some are still using this argument. That's world of football works and that's not a valid argument IMO.

[Ansem]

12 hours ago, AnOutsider said:

Good God, CPL fanboyism has gone crazy.

You go from

"Garber comments on CPL being a lower league within the Canadian structure made it on Wikipedia page and still being there?"

to

"Perhaps MLS being challenged in Canada bothers them more than we think."

Talk about overstretching...

You know literally everyone can edit Wikipedia pages?

Your assertion is utterly ridiculous unless you can prove the person put that part on the page was on MLS duty.

Wow...a fan boy really? 

I was just raising the fact that it was weird that a league who doesn't even exist already have negative quotes from the MLS commissionaire on its page. Just reporting and commenting on it.

Also, if you think MLS are thrilled about the prospect of a CPL league, you are mistaken. Heavily mistaken.

MLS had hope to replicate what the other leagues had done.Locking down the biggest markets in North America which includes the big 3 and hoping the WHOLE COUNTRY would just love MLS and rally behind one of the big 3. 

That's why they don't care about expending further. They want to do what NBA, MLB and to some extend NHL did. Big markets only, have the rest of the country buy in those markets and just keep expending in the US.

So HELL YEAH, MLS is annoyed that we're doing something we aren't doing with other sports, challenging them here at home. For sure they aren't please because instead of mid size and smaller markets supporting MLS overtime, CPL will get them instead as MLS will never expend into Canadian mid size markets.

So yeah, this wasn't a fan boy comment, it was a educated comment from a business point of view.

Thank you very much 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

54 minutes ago, canucklefan said:

I can't believe that we are in 2016 and some are still using this argument. That's world of football works and that's not a valid argument IMO.

Care to expand? I think it is reasonable, all other considerations being equal, that ten times the population would normally mean ten times the pro level players produced. But setting that aside for now, I am not sure that your assertion that there are 500 American players in MLS was even valid. There are 20 teams in MLS and the roster size is 28, so that means 560 in total with 160 foreign roster spots availble, only 1 of which is currently being used by a Canadian. The problem with using foreign roster spots as a yardstick, however, is that it's actually relatively easy for foreign players (including Canadians like Nana Attakora) to get green cards in the United States and once they do they count as domestic. According to wikipedia, 232 non-Canadian and non-American players in national team affiliation terms have played at least one game in MLS this season:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_MLS_players

Factor in 27 Canadians as well and that brings things a lot closer to parity in per capita population terms where CMNT-eligible and USMNT-eligible players are concerned.

[Viruk42]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Care to expand? I think it is reasonable, all other considerations being equal, that ten times the population would normally mean ten times the pro level players produced.

Honduras' population is ~8.5mil, Costa Rica's is ~4.5mil. So clearly we should have about 4.5x as many pros as Honduras and ~9x as many as Costa Rica, yes? Meanwhile, China produces the most by far, about 5x as many pros as Brazil!

Of course not, because population is not especially relevant. How many people play that sport, the resources they have, the system they play within (both in terms of on field systems and organizational systems), etc. Those are what matter for how many pros are produced.

I suspect this is what canucklefan was pointing out.