BREAKING NEWS: C-League news and what cities will be involved

[Jason]

]This is another reason why I'm skeptical of Duane's reporting on this. Building an entire league is not an overnight proposition and given how many people you really need, I'm skeptical that no one would have leaked anything on this subject to any other media source.

 

This is really the best point.  Nobody else has leaked anything anywhere?  I want the story to be true but in this day and age very little is a secret anymore, and for nobody else in the press to be aware of this makes it look suspect.

 

Jason

[Blackdude]

This is really the best point.  Nobody else has leaked anything anywhere?  I want the story to be true but in this day and age very little is a secret anymore, and for nobody else in the press to be aware of this makes it look suspect.

 

Jason

Marc Tougas has had one article where he asked former FSQ president Dino Madonis about a Canadian pro league and he said it could start in 2017. That's the only thing that I've read about it.

[tmcmurph]

I'm just going to ignore this whole story until someone (literally anyone) other than Duane Rollins reports on it. Until then, I'm just going to assume this is Duane's Fantasy League.

DFL ... I love it. Maybe we can merge all threads on this into one DFL thread?

PS. I'm waiting for someone with money to make an announcement.

[fil]

I'm just going to ignore this whole story until someone (literally anyone) other than Duane Rollins reports on it. Until then, I'm just going to assume this is Duane's Fantasy League.

Here is an old link from "Red card with Anthony Tortera" at the 36 minute

http://www.nextsportstar.com/index.php/show/red-card-august-19-2014/

[Jason]

Next week, Rollins will be interviewing John Pugh of the Ottawa Fury on Two Solitudes.  I don't expect that Pugh will say much as they are still in NASL, but it will be telling what Rollins does or does not ask.  If he completely avoids the C-League, I will get very suspicious.  If this happens, he'll say something like "the process needs to be respected" or "it's a sensitive time for the Fury and C-League and I didn't want to put him on the spot" which will concern me.  A good reporter would ask some questions at least on a story they are breaking.  He may not aggressively go after him for answers, but something has to be asked.  If he doesn't, that calls it all into question (moreso).

 

Jason

[Jason]

I wish i could "like" this post.

Dino, I suspect you know much more about this than you could ever tell us on here   Can you at least tell us a bit about what you know and can talk about re: pro soccer in Hamilton?  You pretty much took up residence at the Hamilton stadium during Pan Ams so you must have heard something that you can tell us.

 

Jason 

[jonovision]

This is really the best point.  Nobody else has leaked anything anywhere?  I want the story to be true but in this day and age very little is a secret anymore, and for nobody else in the press to be aware of this makes it look suspect.

 

Jason

It's not like there's a dogged soccer press that is chasing stories below the MLS level.

[Soccerpro]

Dino, I suspect you know much more about this than you could ever tell us on here   Can you at least tell us a bit about what you know and can talk about re: pro soccer in Hamilton?  You pretty much took up residence at the Hamilton stadium during Pan Ams so you must have heard something that you can tell us.

 

Jason

Dino is not this user. He has a different name on here. "Vpr" or something to that effect

[ted]

Are you daft  or.... ? 

 

LOL, possibly. More likely is that you have not thought through the implications.

 

They would be league games. They would just be in one location - 4 games, 2 days, all for league points. National team playing the feature match after the 4th game. People who bought tix for the C-League game would have entry to the national game, and can still have a V section.

 

I understand these would be league games and that is part of the problem. If this was some sort of pre-season tournament I would say, "well done, good idea." As regular league games this brings up several problems:

1. No home team: this would mean that games would be played without a home team. It is hard enough building up supporters numbers and filling stadiums without taking a home game away from teams. We need to make a longer season for both players and spectators to build up media and supporter interest.
2. Devaluing the product: by making these games two-for-the-price-of-one you declare they are not worth seeing as individual games. Even wourse would be to add a National Team game so that these would be seen as "warm-up" acts for the main event. People would show up late or just as the league games were ending.
3. Supporters section destruction: We don't want a V Section for league games. We need to be supporting our local club in appropriate club colours. MIxing things up is a sure way to devalue or even destroy supporters culture.
4. Media suicide: do you really think ANY media is going to treat this seriously? At best they do they would end up covering the whole event at worst they would ignore the league matches with nothing more than a X defeated Y single sentence at the bottom of the story.
5. Impossible for TV: OK, any TV deal is going to be second-rate but this would destroy any chance of any coverage of the games. No way a TV partner shows a continuous 7-8 hours of soccer even assuming they have the rights to both the C-League AND the national team games.

 

 

Other leagues that play games in a "gimmick" fashion - NFL, NHL, MLB......EPL.

 

Sure, well established leagues with a long history and stable business looking to "extend their brand" are doing gimmick games. Please however note that you will never see a game that devalues the product as you are suggesting. You will never see an EPL league game played in the United States as the opening act for a National Team game. You will never see an NBA double-header where four teams play regular league games in a single arena for one price back-to-back.

 

If you want to do what these leagues are doing you would take a game and play it in a city without a league team to try and test the waters not create a fun fair featuring some soccer.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

As much as I'd love to see this C-league thing happen, I think the NASL route is the safest, and smartest route at the moment.  It's already a relatively stable league - much more stable than the C-league would be at its inception anyways.  It has clubs, as opposed to franchises, which would mean that teams could leave and join the C-league, if and when that seems appropriate - just like some markets have with MLS(Minnesota, I believe).  You could develop and stoke the fires of city rivalries, starting with Edmonton and Ottawa in the league, and hopefully Van, Tor and Mtl in the Voyageurs Cup.  

Correct me if I'm wrong here, I've only been on here a little while, but yeah, being an Fc Edmonton fan, I feel like people underrate the appeal of the NASL.  The structure is already there, and you can test the market slowly, with relatively low risk to owners, which seems pretty key.  

It just seems super risky(from a business POV) to launch 6 or 7 seperate franchises in cities that have never really had pro teams yet, as opposed to grandfathering it in once you know the support is there.  

Anyways, glad I found this forum

Cheers.

[ThiKu]

LOL, possibly. More likely is that you have not thought through the implications.

 

 

I understand these would be league games and that is part of the problem. If this was some sort of pre-season tournament I would say, "well done, good idea." As regular league games this brings up several problems:

1. No home team: this would mean that games would be played without a home team. It is hard enough building up supporters numbers and filling stadiums without taking a home game away from teams. We need to make a longer season for both players and spectators to build up media and supporter interest.
2. Devaluing the product: by making these games two-for-the-price-of-one you declare they are not worth seeing as individual games. Even wourse would be to add a National Team game so that these would be seen as "warm-up" acts for the main event. People would show up late or just as the league games were ending.
3. Supporters section destruction: We don't want a V Section for league games. We need to be supporting our local club in appropriate club colours. MIxing things up is a sure way to devalue or even destroy supporters culture.
4. Media suicide: do you really think ANY media is going to treat this seriously? At best they do they would end up covering the whole event at worst they would ignore the league matches with nothing more than a X defeated Y single sentence at the bottom of the story.
5. Impossible for TV: OK, any TV deal is going to be second-rate but this would destroy any chance of any coverage of the games. No way a TV partner shows a continuous 7-8 hours of soccer even assuming they have the rights to both the C-League AND the national team games.

 

 

 

Sure, well established leagues with a long history and stable business looking to "extend their brand" are doing gimmick games. Please however note that you will never see a game that devalues the product as you are suggesting. You will never see an EPL league game played in the United States as the opening act for a National Team game. You will never see an NBA double-header where four teams play regular league games in a single arena for one price back-to-back.

 

If you want to do what these leagues are doing you would take a game and play it in a city without a league team to try and test the waters not create a fun fair featuring some soccer.

 

Ya pre-season friendly tournament, I'd get on board with that. But as for your other comments

 

*sigh*....

 

"fun fair"....I don't think you quote grasp PR.

 

1. True, there'd only be 1 "home team" for one of the 4 games. There may be less spectators at the 2nd day of games when the host city isn't playing. But, since part of your ticket price is getting you into the CMNT game you would have national team fans coming out to watch. 

2. The "V" section I was referring to was for the CMNT game only. Set that aside for sure, but on top of that the folks who bought tix for the C-League game(s) would also be able to attend the CMNT game as the feature match of the weekend. 

*people show up late for Whitecaps/TFC games, so how would that be any different for these games?

3. I already remarked on - CMNT only

4. The media would take it just as seriously as any other C-League event. And probably feature it more since it will also keep the TV companies cost down to report on it. The broadcast company would love it as they would only need 1-2 crews instead of 4 plus less hotel cost etc for them for their employees...

5. Actually they would. Especially if it was part of the league deal. Either that or have 4 games in 4 days with the national team as the 2nd game on the 4th day.

 

Anyway, you think it's a bad idea, I think it's a good idea. I believe I've countered your points, and you believe you've countered mine. 

 

Can we get back to just supporting the league?

[-Hammer-]

As much as I'd love to see this C-league thing happen, I think the NASL route is the safest, and smartest route at the moment.  It's already a relatively stable league - much more stable than the C-league would be at its inception anyways.  It has clubs, as opposed to franchises, which would mean that teams could leave and join the C-league, if and when that seems appropriate - just like some markets have with MLS(Minnesota, I believe).  You could develop and stoke the fires of city rivalries, starting with Edmonton and Ottawa in the league, and hopefully Van, Tor and Mtl in the Voyageurs Cup.  

Correct me if I'm wrong here, I've only been on here a little while, but yeah, being an Fc Edmonton fan, I feel like people underrate the appeal of the NASL.  The structure is already there, and you can test the market slowly, with relatively low risk to owners, which seems pretty key.  

It just seems super risky(from a business POV) to launch 6 or 7 seperate franchises in cities that have never really had pro teams yet, as opposed to grandfathering it in once you know the support is there.  

Anyways, glad I found this forum

Cheers.

 

I have to agree. I think the best route is to stick with it and add more and more NASL franchises and when we reach 4 or so and the NASL itself wants to expand into more US, markets and free itself of the Canadian markets, that's the time to launch a new league. Any Canadian league needs to be perceived as a professional organization that plays at a level at least as high as NASL. If you don't put that idea forward and the league, for any reason seems like a bush, startup, CSL version 2 league, it will go nowhere.

[ray]

So what about working with NASL to create a Canadian division instead of this C-League?  Wasn't this the previous rumour prior to the talk of an all-Canadian circuit?  It would be the best of both worlds in that the 2 Canadian NASL franchises would likely be on board, Canadian teams would meet regularly and battle for a division title, the NASL would be stabilized and provide a strong level of competition.

 

It might well mean the NASL would have to eat humble pie and go down to D3 in the USSF.  This is a small price to pay.  The NASL can create its own internal franchise requirements that meet the D2 standard.

 

As for the CFL/CSA, they should be happy to have some involvement with the NASL to reassure against a collapse should a Canadian franchise or two go under.  In fact, should a C-League falter, the remaining teams would be scrambling for a home in the NASL or USL Pro.  Better to take the safer option and get most of what you want (negotiate a Canadian division), IMHO.

 

Edit: The point mentioned above about not having to launch a bunch of new Canadian teams all at once is also a huge consideration.

[Ivan]

How about an independent "C-League" including Edmonton & Ottawa that plays an interlocking schedule with the NASL?  We get our own distinct Div 2 league, it doesn't circumvent USSF rules and the interlocking schedule with the NASL gives the correct optics to the Canadian fans.  

[lazlo_80]

I have to agree. I think the best route is to stick with it and add more and more NASL franchises and when we reach 4 or so and the NASL itself wants to expand into more US, markets and free itself of the Canadian markets, that's the time to launch a new league. Any Canadian league needs to be perceived as a professional organization that plays at a level at least as high as NASL. If you don't put that idea forward and the league, for any reason seems like a bush, startup, CSL version 2 league, it will go nowhere.

 

 

Guys, I'm not trying to crap on people who are fans of the NASL as a league but the implication here that the NASL is some shining beacon of professional league management is ridiculous.

 

The league literally has zero brand recognition in Canada outside of diehards in Edmenton and Ottawa, as well us on this message board.

 

There was a great article a while back about how the league did at one point try to take a crack at competing with the MLS by grabbing the cosmos and such 4-5 years ago but since then the league has fallen back into being a D2 level league, and one that is seen more and more as a rogue league to MLS and USL fans—two leagues that seem to have a very specific strategy on how they will one day run all the US professional levels of soccer. It's basically an open secret at this point that USL and MLS are one and the same, and the USL brand will likely break off into D2 and D3 divisions, trying to force NASL out of the situation. Regardless of your opinion of the way MLS and USL operate, it's getting tougher and tougher to see this ending well for the NASL

 

The NASL growth strategy lately has been basically reactionary to what MLS and USL does. Going into Miami, while may be a nice story in the short term, will make this league look even more small time if they play in a football stadium beside a newly built Miami MLS stadium. Then they put a team in the all important puerto rico market, ensuring 50% of the league basically plays in the south east.

 

With all of that facing the NASL, why would any investor at the level of say a Bob Young, look at that as a more "stable" option than building a league from scratch in your own mold? 

 

Infrastructure? most of the proposed markets in Canada will have facilities on par if not better than what you see in NASL.

 

Marketing? Again, NASL has zero brand recognition in Canada so there would be no point in fighting to keep that league title. No one outside a few diehards cares about playing the San Antonio scorpions.

 

Sponsorship? Being able to go to Canadian companies to become "the official sponsor of the canadian league" is alot more powerful than going to them to try and get them to sponsor the NASL. This is another place they would lose money by trying to be a part of the NASL. 

 

Media? Why would the Canadian investors want to deal with a corrupt company like Traffic to negotiate and profit from their television/radio deals, when they already have a better relationship with the big Canadian media players given their CFL ties? I'd argue this is one of the juiciest reasons for starting a new league, you can create a SUM/Traffic like company on your own and start profiting from C-league and Canadian team TV contracts. NASL's national coverage is joke, if you even get these games on TSN 5 you're in better shape than anything NASL is providing you.

 

League Management? These guys already have experience with a stable league in the CFL, they can hire their own soccer guys and use their own expertise.

 

It would be different if the NASL had some big TV contract that payed all their teams cash, or they shared big franchise fees with all their teams, but what is in it for a Canadian team right now? I see zero reason why NASL is a better option for starting a league then just doing it from scratch. 

[TFC07]

Guys, I'm not trying to crap on people who are fans of the NASL as a league but the implication here that the NASL is some shining beacon of professional league management is ridiculous.

 

The league literally has zero brand recognition in Canada outside of diehards in Edmenton and Ottawa, as well us on this message board.

 

There was a great article a while back about how the league did at one point try to take a crack at competing with the MLS by grabbing the cosmos and such 4-5 years ago but since then the league has fallen back into being a D2 level league, and one that is seen more and more as a rogue league to MLS and USL fans—two leagues that seem to have a very specific strategy on how they will one day run all the US professional levels of soccer. It's basically an open secret at this point that USL and MLS are one and the same, and the USL brand will likely break off into D2 and D3 divisions, trying to force NASL out of the situation. Regardless of your opinion of the way MLS and USL operate, it's getting tougher and tougher to see this ending well for the NASL

 

The NASL growth strategy lately has been basically reactionary to what MLS and USL does. Going into Miami, while may be a nice story in the short term, will make this league look even more small time if they play in a football stadium beside a newly built Miami MLS stadium. Then they put a team in the all important puerto rico market, ensuring 50% of the league basically plays in the south east.

 

With all of that facing the NASL, why would any investor at the level of say a Bob Young, look at that as a more "stable" option than building a league from scratch in your own mold? 

 

Infrastructure? most of the proposed markets in Canada will have facilities on par if not better than what you see in NASL.

 

Marketing? Again, NASL has zero brand recognition in Canada so there would be no point in fighting to keep that league title. No one outside a few diehards cares about playing the San Antonio scorpions.

 

Sponsorship? Being able to go to Canadian companies to become "the official sponsor of the canadian league" is alot more powerful than going to them to try and get them to sponsor the NASL. This is another place they would lose money by trying to be a part of the NASL. 

 

Media? Why would the Canadian investors want to deal with a corrupt company like Traffic to negotiate and profit from their television/radio deals, when they already have a better relationship with the big Canadian media players given their CFL ties? I'd argue this is one of the juiciest reasons for starting a new league, you can create a SUM/Traffic like company on your own and start profiting from C-league and Canadian team TV contracts. NASL's national coverage is joke, if you even get these games on TSN 5 you're in better shape than anything NASL is providing you.

 

League Management? These guys already have experience with a stable league in the CFL, they can hire their own soccer guys and use their own expertise.

 

It would be different if the NASL had some big TV contract that payed all their teams cash, or they shared big franchise fees with all their teams, but what is in it for a Canadian team right now? I see zero reason why NASL is a better option for starting a league then just doing it from scratch. 

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

 

Well said.   

[ted]

Anyway, you think it's a bad idea, I think it's a good idea. I believe I've countered your points, and you believe you've countered mine. 

 

Can we get back to just supporting the league?

 

LOL, well actually you pretty much simply ignored my points but whatever.

 

I cannot support this phantom league yet as there is nothing to support. I am not even sure I can commit to supporting the idea for this league as there has been no confirmation that the NASL partnership is totally dead (only mostly dead?).

 

 

So what about working with NASL to create a Canadian division instead of this C-League? 

 

It is either still on the table or it is not. Nothing we can say or do to change that at this point.

 

 

It would be different if the NASL had some big TV contract that payed all their teams cash, or they shared big franchise fees with all their teams, but what is in it for a Canadian team right now? I see zero reason why NASL is a better option for starting a league then just doing it from scratch. 

 

You make some good points. For me the only real advantage is that the league exists already and has teams that can play our new teams.

The existing teams in Ottawa and Edmonton bring fans and some recognition in the media and are crucial markets for any C-League. Bringing them onboard is much smarter than trying to compete with them.

 

To have a real comptetitive league you need at least 16 teams. We cannot start a C-League with more than six new teams (or eight if we tried to create teams to compete with Edm and Ott). The American teams provide appropriate opposition without having to expand too quickly.

[lazlo_80]

You make some good points. For me the only real advantage is that the league exists already and has teams that can play our new teams.

The existing teams in Ottawa and Edmonton bring fans and some recognition in the media and are crucial markets for any C-League. Bringing them onboard is much smarter than trying to compete with them.

 

To have a real comptetitive league you need at least 16 teams. We cannot start a C-League with more than six new teams (or eight if we tried to create teams to compete with Edm and Ott). The American teams provide appropriate opposition without having to expand too quickly.

 

That all makes sense. To me a league already existing isn't enough reason to buy into it ESPECIALLY considering the dismal outlook this league has for the future, the TRAFFIC tie, the fact it's run by a different federation and most importantly the fact the league itself provides no value to the Canadian market.

 

If ottawa fury don't move to the C-League I'll eat my hat. They're owned by red blacks ownership, and if the leaked reports are true and there's a team in Ottawa it just makes too much sense for it to be them. Wouldn't freak out about CEOs comments, he literally has more to lose than to gain by announcing his team is moving to a league that hasn't officially been announced yet.

 

Edmonton is the question mark, I really hope FC Edmonton do buy in, otherwise I imagine they go head to head with them, but that's just my prediction. 8 teams is enough to start a league with and the singular focus a Canadian league provides outweighs any advantage playing a few teams south of the border provides simply because they exist.

[ted]

I think if Ottawa makes the move Edmonton will have little choice but to make the move as well.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Do we know for sure there is any substance to this "C-League" stuff? The Bill Peterson quote from June that I posted in the other thread, suggests that the CSA has discussed the Canadian division concept with the NASL, but that doesn't appear to have got anywhere and there's currently only two markets that are seen as being strong expansion candidates in the short term at the NASL end of things. 

 

http://insoccer.ca/2015/06/17/bill-peterson-comments-on-nasl-expansion-plans-for-canada/  

 

John Pugh's more recent comments about there being no concrete plans for teams in other cities, suggests to me that what interest there was may have cooled off over the last year or so, which seems consistent with Peterson's comment about not doing a good job to execute the plan they had. 

[lazlo_80]

Do we know for sure there is any substance to this "C-League" stuff? 

 

No more substance then what has been said previously. There's no new news with respect to it. My point was simply that starting a C-League makes more sense then some sort of partnership/co-league/expansion with the NASL.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

A year ago the rumour was that the CSA wanted to start a Canadian division using CFL stadia that would be linked closely to the NASL, so the powers that be in Canadian socceer appear to have disagreed with your assessment. The standalone "C-League" concept is relatively new and appears to be coming from only one blogger with no sources ever named, as far as I am aware. My guess would be that nothing much is happening on this stuff, but some people want to keep the dream alive.

[lazlo_80]

A year ago the rumour was that the CSA wanted to start a Canadian division using CFL stadia that would be linked closely to the NASL, so the powers that be in Canadian socceer appear to have disagreed with your assessment. The standalone "C-League" concept is relatively new and appears to be coming from only one blogger with no sources ever named, as far as I am aware. My guess would be that nothing much is happening on this stuff, but some people want to keep the dream alive.

 

A lot has changed in a year. By the sounds of the latest rumors—as you alluded to—it appears the NASL is no longer involved.

 

Regardless of whether this is happening or not, my original point was simply that I think people were overvaluing the NASL and what they could bring to Canadian soccer as opposed to what a Canadian standalone league could provide. 

[Raven]

and just to add to some confusion whether We are going to see Canadian teams first in the proposed league or NASL.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/usa/11791370/NASL-commissioner-Bill-Peterson-vows-to-take-action-to-introduce-promotion-and-relegation-in-North-America.html

""We expect to make some announcements this year regarding new teams in the league based on the West Coast," Peterson added. "So we start to get to a number of 15, 16 or 17 and from there we have to be careful what we do with the last three, which is a great place to be for us.

"We don't have a hard deadline but within around 18 to 24 months we will be at our 20 teams and have a nice footprint on the East Coast and West Coast and we're going to fill it in the centre of the country and in Canada as well.

"The territory is so big, it's hard to figure out what the right footprint is and we'd love a mix of major cities and smaller cities that are hotbeds for soccer and that's ultimately what we're trying to accomplish. The good news is the marketplace is so big... the challenge is the marketplace is so big.""

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Reading between the lines, the big stumbling block at the moment is probably the west coast expansion of the NASL, because that would put to rest any fears in the short to medium term over the league's post-2017 future in USSF sanctioning terms. They need to add a pacific or mountain timezone team in the US soon to be able to meet the D2 sanctioning standards. The rate of USL expansion there has probably narrowed their options considerably.