BREAKING NEWS: C-League news and what cities will be involved

[ThiKu]

LOL, well actually you pretty much simply ignored my points but whatever.

 

 

 

It's funny cuz I think you ignored my points. But....OK.

[CDNFootballer]

Guys, I'm not trying to crap on people who are fans of the NASL as a league but the implication here that the NASL is some shining beacon of professional league management is ridiculous.

 

The league literally has zero brand recognition in Canada outside of diehards in Edmenton and Ottawa, as well us on this message board

 

You seem to be understating the NASL, maybe you don't follow the league much or am a MLS or USL diehard. And who's this "us" your referring to? The NASL does have brand recognition outside of its markets in Canada in a certain segment thats why international coverage of the league is seen on The Telegraph for instance. Thats why the league chose to use the name NASL when they started it up again in 2011.

 

There was a great article a while back about how the league did at one point try to take a crack at competing with the MLS by grabbing the cosmos and such 4-5 years ago but since then the league has fallen back into being a D2 level league, and one that is seen more and more as a rogue league to MLS and USL fans—two leagues that seem to have a very specific strategy on how they will one day run all the US professional levels of soccer. It's basically an open secret at this point that USL and MLS are one and the same, and the USL brand will likely break off into D2 and D3 divisions, trying to force NASL out of the situation. Regardless of your opinion of the way MLS and USL operate, it's getting tougher and tougher to see this ending well for the NASL

 

The NASL growth strategy lately has been basically reactionary to what MLS and USL does. Going into Miami, while may be a nice story in the short term, will make this league look even more small time if they play in a football stadium beside a newly built Miami MLS stadium. Then they put a team in the all important puerto rico market, ensuring 50% of the league basically plays in the south east.

 

Rogue league? Why, because they don't follow what MLS wants and didn't want to become their farm team/minor league? Of course the MLS and USL fanboys may see the NASL in that light but its not a relevant point in discussing the NASL as a option for a Canadian Division/league. They're by no means a rogue league in reality, just have a view that they would rather follow the international league model instead of MLS's single entity or being a farm team/minor league.

 

One expansion team, Miami, doesnt make them reactionary. Is Puerto Rico reactionary? Was Jacksonville reactionary? Ottawa and Indy?

 

As for media, they wouldn't be dealing with Traffic as business operations are suspended with them, so just like ESPN who broadcast NASL matches in the US or OneWorldSports who a few weeks back made a deal to telecast Nationally in the US a Wednesday NASL game each week on TV they would deal with the NASL league brass. No deal exists for Canada nationally however so you have a point there.

 

Both options, partnering with an NASL league that is the most stable D2 there's ever been and is growing at a strong rate each year attendance wise, profile wise, with increasingly better ownership of its clubs, or going the startup route with a new league - they both have they're pro's and cons, either one would be fine with me.

[lazlo_80]

You seem to be understating the NASL, maybe you don't follow the league much or am a MLS or USL diehard. And who's this "us" your referring to? The NASL does have brand recognition outside of its markets in Canada in a certain segment thats why international coverage of the league is seen on The Telegraph for instance. Thats why the league chose to use the name NASL when they started it up again in 2011.

 

 

Rogue league? Why, because they don't follow what MLS wants and didn't want to become their farm team/minor league? Of course the MLS and USL fanboys may see the NASL in that light but its not a relevant point in discussing the NASL as a option for a Canadian Division/league. They're by no means a rogue league in reality, just have a view that they would rather follow the international league model instead of MLS's single entity or being a farm team/minor league.

 

One expansion team, Miami, doesnt make them reactionary. Is Puerto Rico reactionary? Was Jacksonville reactionary? Ottawa and Indy?

 

As for media, they wouldn't be dealing with Traffic as business operations are suspended with them, so just like ESPN who broadcast NASL matches in the US or OneWorldSports who a few weeks back made a deal to telecast Nationally in the US a Wednesday NASL game each week on TV they would deal with the NASL league brass. No deal exists for Canada nationally however so you have a point there.

 

Both options, partnering with an NASL league that is the most stable D2 there's ever been and is growing at a strong rate each year attendance wise, profile wise, with increasingly better ownership of its clubs, or going the startup route with a new league - they both have they're pro's and cons, either one would be fine with me.

 

To your first point, is the "certain segment" you're referring to die-hard north american soccer fans? because outside of that group, and especially in Canada the league itself doesn't hold any water with the average fan. I would argue starting a new league from scratch you could brand as "the Canadian league" would instantly resonate with more Canadian fans than "hey we're joining the NASL". The press release for the former writes itself, the latter you have to reach at straws about why people should care about the new york cosmos.

 

And yes, the "us" I was referring to was us folks on the message board who know about the NASL. Also, does the Telegraph actually cover the league? Do they report on games or even feature the league table in their paper? If they do, I apologize and take back what I said, but it was my understanding they only mention the league when the head of it comes out and says he's in favor of promotion and relegation—that's not league coverage, that's barely exposure, and that sort of coverage doesn't help the league become more exposed to fans in Canada. To me it just seems like a PR stunt. 

 

The Rogue League comment was exactly as I stated, it is becoming more and more seen as a rogue league to USL and MLS markets. When the USL teams almost swept the NASL teams in the US open cup MLS couldn't hide their glee in their coverage of that. As the number of USL and MLS markets grow, this narrative will continue to gain more leverage...it will grow especially once USL applies for D2 status. Right now with respect to domestic soccer MLS is gaining more and more of the coverage and relevance, if they suddenly have a USL D2 league underneath them the NASL is very much out in the dark with respect to how they are seen by mainstream soccer fans. Please don't think I'm gleefully basking in the destruction of the NASL, this is just the way it has gone in basically every other North American league. There was the NBA and ABA, there was the NFL and the USFL, and consistently the more dominant league has found a way to gain more power and push the other one out.

 

To your point about this not being relevant to discussing a Canadian league, I 100% disagree. Why would you tie yourself to a league who's prospects grow dimmer and dimmer by the year? A league who is losing in their own country? A league who doesn't have any marquee teams or players that will actually help a Canadian owner get bums in seats ESPECIALLY when you have to give up the ability to control and define the league itself to people who aren't even in the same country as you? I'm personally of the mind that the money and brain power behind the CFL could build a better league from scratch than what the NASL provides.

 

Was Miami reactionary? I think so.

 

Was puerto rico reactionary? Putting another team in the southeast, only this time outdoing yourself by putting it in a country that is literally having a greece-like financial crisis? Yeah, I think so. Leagues with lots of options and who aren't worried about keeping up with the joneses generally don't make moves like that.

 

 

To your second last paragraph, Jonathan Tannewald recently did an article about Traffic and the NASL. Traffic is still very much involved in the league. Why Canadian CFL owners who already have a working relationship with TSN would hand over even 1% of the decision making and media management to the people at the NASL knowing their very direct ties to Traffic seems absurd to me.

 

Also, I could be wrong but does ESPN actually broadcast the games? I currently live in the US and only ever see them on ESPN3. For people who might not know, ESPN 3 is their catch-all website for programming they don't actually show on television. They have everything from Cheerleading competitions to video gaming contests to ultimate frisbee tournaments on it....it's a far, far cry from actually broadcasting the games. With the relationships the CFL owners already have with TSN I believe they could get way better TV coverage on their own than anything the NASL provides.

[CDNFootballer]

To your first point, is the "certain segment" you're referring to die-hard north american soccer fans? because outside of that group, and especially in Canada the league itself doesn't hold any water with the average fan. I would argue starting a new league from scratch you could brand as "the Canadian league" would instantly resonate with more Canadian fans than "hey we're joining the NASL". The press release for the former writes itself, the latter you have to reach at straws about why people should care about the new york cosmos.

 

And yes, the "us" I was referring to was us folks on the message board who know about the NASL. Also, does the Telegraph actually cover the league? Do they report on games or even feature the league table in their paper? If they do, I apologize and take back what I said, but it was my understanding they only mention the league when the head of it comes out and says he's in favor of promotion and relegation—that's not league coverage, that's barely exposure, and that sort of coverage doesn't help the league become more exposed to fans in Canada. To me it just seems like a PR stunt. 

 

The Rogue League comment was exactly as I stated, it is becoming more and more seen as a rogue league to USL and MLS markets. When the USL teams almost swept the NASL teams in the US open cup MLS couldn't hide their glee in their coverage of that. As the number of USL and MLS markets grow, this narrative will continue to gain more leverage...it will grow especially once USL applies for D2 status. Right now with respect to domestic soccer MLS is gaining more and more of the coverage and relevance, if they suddenly have a USL D2 league underneath them the NASL is very much out in the dark with respect to how they are seen by mainstream soccer fans. Please don't think I'm gleefully basking in the destruction of the NASL, this is just the way it has gone in basically every other North American league. There was the NBA and ABA, there was the NFL and the USFL, and consistently the more dominant league has found a way to gain more power and push the other one out.

 

To your point about this not being relevant to discussing a Canadian league, I 100% disagree. Why would you tie yourself to a league who's prospects grow dimmer and dimmer by the year? A league who is losing in their own country? A league who doesn't have any marquee teams or players that will actually help a Canadian owner get bums in seats ESPECIALLY when you have to give up the ability to control and define the league itself to people who aren't even in the same country as you? I'm personally of the mind that the money and brain power behind the CFL could build a better league from scratch than what the NASL provides.

 

Was Miami reactionary? I think so.

 

Was puerto rico reactionary? Putting another team in the southeast, only this time outdoing yourself by putting it in a country that is literally having a greece-like financial crisis? Yeah, I think so. Leagues with lots of options and who aren't worried about keeping up with the joneses generally don't make moves like that.

 

 

To your second last paragraph, Jonathan Tannewald recently did an article about Traffic and the NASL. Traffic is still very much involved in the league. Why Canadian CFL owners who already have a working relationship with TSN would hand over even 1% of the decision making and media management to the people at the NASL knowing their very direct ties to Traffic seems absurd to me.

 

Also, I could be wrong but does ESPN actually broadcast the games? I currently live in the US and only ever see them on ESPN3. For people who might not know, ESPN 3 is their catch-all website for programming they don't actually show on television. They have everything from Cheerleading competitions to video gaming contests to ultimate frisbee tournaments on it....it's a far, far cry from actually broadcasting the games. With the relationships the CFL owners already have with TSN I believe they could get way better TV coverage on their own than anything the NASL provides.

Ahh, so the "us" you were refering to was not all on the message board who know of the NASL but just those that share your particular opinion on it.

 

There are other international articles on the NASL, not only when they mention pro/rel, thats because there's brand recognition with the NASL. Again, NASL suspended all business dealings with Traffic and that continues. The ESPN deal is a positive for the league as is the Oneworldsports national US TV deal and the local TV deals all but one NASL club have.

 

Your entitled to your opinion but your viewpoint on the NASL shows you don't have much knowledge of the league or follow it and is basically in line with the MLS and USL fanboys who rehash the same biased incorrect info and spin about the league to suit their own narrative.

[mianjo]

NPSL wants to be part of NASL promotion and relegation  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/11796875/NPSL-chairman-Joe-Barone-wants-NASL-merger-to-bring-about-promotion-and-relegation-in-North-America.html

[lazlo_80]

Ahh, so the "us" you were refering to was not all on the message board who know of the NASL but just those that share your particular opinion on it.

 

There are other international articles on the NASL, not only when they mention pro/rel, thats because there's brand recognition with the NASL. Again, NASL suspended all business dealings with Traffic and that continues. The ESPN deal is a positive for the league as is the Oneworldsports national US TV deal and the local TV deals all but one NASL club have.

 

Your entitled to your opinion but your viewpoint on the NASL shows you don't have much knowledge of the league or follow it and is basically in line with the MLS and USL fanboys who rehash the same biased incorrect info and spin about the league to suit their own narrative.

 

Not to belabor the point, but I really think you misinterpreted the sentence where I used "us", it wasn't meant to be charged, in fact if anything I think I was saying the opposite of what you think I was saying. I was saying it does have brand recognition with people on this message board, as well as diehards in ottawa and edmonton...but outside of that noone knows about it:

 

 The league literally has zero brand recognition in Canada outside of diehards in Edmenton and Ottawa, as well us on this message board

 

So even though you and I share a difference of opinion on the prospects of this league, we both still know about it.

 

I don't want to start an argument about Traffic's involvement with the NASL, however if you really want to read more about it, take a look at this interview with Bill Peterson as well as the footnotes, highlighting some of the ways the NASL and Traffic are still deeply intertwined...

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/thegoalkeeper/NASL-commissioner-Bill-Peterson-sets-out-leagues-present-future-goals.html

 

Being a fan boy of any one particular league is silly to me, especially when both of them are American entities. Everything I said wasn't meant as an MLS versus NASL argument but instead in the context of "What would be best for Canada and a possible Canadian league?" 

 

I am of the mind that starting a league from scratch would be a better way to go than partnering with the NASL.

[Levi Oakey]

NASL is required to be 75% American.

 

Expansion slots for Canadian teams are very limited.

 

FC London averages over 800 a game, more than Ottawa did in the PDL. Hamilton wants to move to NASL. Apparently there was a potential NASL Toronto bid. The NASL can not contain all of this expansion, so why should Canadian cities have to wait for the NASL's USSF standard.

 

I think fundamentally (and I have gone back and forth on this) but really, this is the key. If 10 cities are ready to form a Canadian League, that would require NASL to have 40 teams. I don't think they can find 30 viable cities in the US, especially with their battle with MLS and USL.

[-Hammer-]

With all of that facing the NASL, why would any investor at the level of say a Bob Young, look at that as a more "stable" option than building a league from scratch in your own mold? 

 

Infrastructure? most of the proposed markets in Canada will have facilities on par if not better than what you see in NASL.

 

Marketing? Again, NASL has zero brand recognition in Canada so there would be no point in fighting to keep that league title. No one outside a few diehards cares about playing the San Antonio scorpions.

 

Sponsorship? Being able to go to Canadian companies to become "the official sponsor of the canadian league" is alot more powerful than going to them to try and get them to sponsor the NASL. This is another place they would lose money by trying to be a part of the NASL. 

 

Media? Why would the Canadian investors want to deal with a corrupt company like Traffic to negotiate and profit from their television/radio deals, when they already have a better relationship with the big Canadian media players given their CFL ties? I'd argue this is one of the juiciest reasons for starting a new league, you can create a SUM/Traffic like company on your own and start profiting from C-league and Canadian team TV contracts. NASL's national coverage is joke, if you even get these games on TSN 5 you're in better shape than anything NASL is providing you.

 

League Management? These guys already have experience with a stable league in the CFL, they can hire their own soccer guys and use their own expertise.

 

It would be different if the NASL had some big TV contract that payed all their teams cash, or they shared big franchise fees with all their teams, but what is in it for a Canadian team right now? I see zero reason why NASL is a better option for starting a league then just doing it from scratch. 

 

To the first point, before this quote, I think CDNFootballer did a good rebut, so I didn't include it.

 

However, as far as why Bob Young, several reasons. First, I don't believe Duane, I think discussions of this new league are still in their infancy, I don't think this Canadian league ready, and I fully believe will take years to get off of the ground. However if Bob wants to capitalize on the Pan-Am games and exclusive lease agreement with the city, he needs a team sooner rather then later. So what are his options?

 

MLS isn't going to let him in, MLS/USL will intentionally limit Hamilton getting a franchise, as MLSE has done it before with Hamilton and the NHL. Assuming they didn't, I think investing in an MLS franchise is probably more then Mr. Young wants to spend, and even if he didn't want to pay the ridiculous sum for an MLS team. He wants to actually start making more players for our national team, but in MLS there is no way to do that with how many US player requirements and still managing to field a competitive team with all of your import slots being allocated to Canadians.

 

USL maybe has a better chance, but playing against TFC's reserve team is going to make such a team an incredibly tough sell to the Hamilton fanbase and won't likely be allowed to participate in the Voyaguer's Cup.

 

However, with both Jeff Hunt and Bob Young with contacts with TSN due to their CFL ownership, and NASL not having any real Canadian broadcast presence, it's an easy leap to make, even moreso when they can say "Hey, we have stuff that helps your league out, but you are limiting Traffic's involvement, which the NASL has been trying to do anyways.

 

The biggest problem with this C-League is in the name itself. It comes across as 3rd tier, and sure you can change that name but it's hard to claim you are playing a high level of soccer when MLS is there, NASL teams are there not participating in your league and 8 franchises suddenly appeared overnight and we're to believe that the players are all of the same quality, with so many of them already on established teams? It's a tough sell.

 

I'm not saying tie us to NASL forever, I'm saying get a several teams that have played there for a while with the understanding that the Canadian teams will jump ship in the future away from the USSF, of which there are legit reasons for NASL to let said teams go, such as easier sanctioning, money, having a new CSA branch or as you stated, the ever present league collapse.

 

As far as brand recognition, NASL still has more then the C-Leauge does, or another other non-MLS league in this country. It's teams are still part of the Canadian championship, and the very fact that they have already established teams is a major item. So just going through the list.

 

Infrastructure - Physical infrastructure is already there, but infrastructure is the sense of league officials, marketing reps, vendors, etc NASL already has. That said, CFL owners sort of have their own as well, so we'll call this neutral.

 

Marketing - You have a point there, except for the Cosmos and Railhawks who are a bit more well known. However as stated, a C-League you are starting from scratch with a huge obstacle in terms of marketting, because you have to convince the public that your new startup isn't bush, vs an existing league that has been around a while.

 

Sponsorship - A valid point, but one big disadvantage is you can't go to US companies as the Canadian league. As the NASL you can gun for both sides of the border, until you reach a point where you are big enough to attract exclusive Canadian dollars.

 

Media - Well, biggest benefit is you have a US TV deal bringing in more money they any potential TSN2 TV deal can and you have the option of setting up TV deals on both sides of the boarder with smaller networks/channels where a non-MLS league needs to start.

 

Like I said, I think Canadian teams playing in NASL for now and jumping ship to a Canadian league after making some noise (much like Vancouver and Montreal did in the NASL before the MLS jump) or going with a NASL "Canadian Division" is the way to go.

[ted]

Both options, partnering with an NASL league that is the most stable D2 there's ever been and is growing at a strong rate each year attendance wise, profile wise, with increasingly better ownership of its clubs, or going the startup route with a new league - they both have they're pro's and cons, either one would be fine with me.

 

Yep.

 

What is more important is to pick one option and get going.

[lazlo_80]

To the first point, before this quote, I think CDNFootballer did a good rebut, so I didn't include it.

 

However, as far as why Bob Young, several reasons. First, I don't believe Duane, I think discussions of this new league are still in their infancy, I don't think this Canadian league ready, and I fully believe will take years to get off of the ground. However if Bob wants to capitalize on the Pan-Am games and exclusive lease agreement with the city, he needs a team sooner rather then later. So what are his options?

 

MLS isn't going to let him in, MLS/USL will intentionally limit Hamilton getting a franchise, as MLSE has done it before with Hamilton and the NHL. Assuming they didn't, I think investing in an MLS franchise is probably more then Mr. Young wants to spend, and even if he didn't want to pay the ridiculous sum for an MLS team. He wants to actually start making more players for our national team, but in MLS there is no way to do that with how many US player requirements and still managing to field a competitive team with all of your import slots being allocated to Canadians.

 

USL maybe has a better chance, but playing against TFC's reserve team is going to make such a team an incredibly tough sell to the Hamilton fanbase and won't likely be allowed to participate in the Voyaguer's Cup.

 

 

I agree, Hamilton as a market is never going to get an MLS team and a USL team would be very underwhelming. If you believe the rumored league is still a ways away and what you're implying is that Bob Young wants to get something off the ground quickly than the NASL certainly provides him that option. How far away do you see it? How far away would it have to be to make it worth it to Bob Young to pull the franchise and eat the exit clause penalty?

 

 

I'm not saying tie us to NASL forever, I'm saying get a several teams that have played there for a while with the understanding that the Canadian teams will jump ship in the future away from the USSF, of which there are legit reasons for NASL to let said teams go, such as easier sanctioning, money, having a new CSA branch or as you stated, the ever present league collapse.

 

I just don't see the NASL ever agreeing to this. Why would a league thats losing teams to the MLS (minnesota) or having trouble getting them off the ground (Virginia) be okay with being a holding league for a group of Canadian teams until they find a more suitable league? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this statement.

 

 

However, with both Jeff Hunt and Bob Young with contacts with TSN due to their CFL ownership, and NASL not having any real Canadian broadcast presence, it's an easy leap to make, even moreso when they can say "Hey, we have stuff that helps your league out, but you are limiting Traffic's involvement, which the NASL has been trying to do anyways.

 

 

As far as brand recognition, NASL still has more then the C-Leauge does, or another other non-MLS league in this country. It's teams are still part of the Canadian championship, and the very fact that they have already established teams is a major item. So just going through the list.

 

To the first paragraph, in my opinion I think the Canadian investors hold all the chips here. Why would you want to get involved with a league that can't provide any of these things for you on your own and give up control of the league itself? Wouldn't they be better served building the league from scratch and using their own contacts to ensure the newly created league works in a way that serves Canadian interests best rather than let the NASL have a say in any of that?

 

To your second point, I agree, the NASL does have more brand recognition that the C-league. So does USL-PDL, so does League 1 Ontario. In my opinion using the angle of a national Canadian league and leveraging the media and communication channels these CFL investors already have, you could have more people familiar with the C-League very quickly than anything NASL does for itself in Canada.

 

 

Infrastructure - Physical infrastructure is already there, but infrastructure is the sense of league officials, marketing reps, vendors, etc NASL already has. That said, CFL owners sort of have their own as well, so we'll call this neutral.

 

Marketing - You have a point there, except for the Cosmos and Railhawks who are a bit more well known. However as stated, a C-League you are starting from scratch with a huge obstacle in terms of marketting, because you have to convince the public that your new startup isn't bush, vs an existing league that has been around a while.

 

Sponsorship - A valid point, but one big disadvantage is you can't go to US companies as the Canadian league. As the NASL you can gun for both sides of the border, until you reach a point where you are big enough to attract exclusive Canadian dollars.

 

Media - Well, biggest benefit is you have a US TV deal bringing in more money they any potential TSN2 TV deal can and you have the option of setting up TV deals on both sides of the boarder with smaller networks/channels where a non-MLS league needs to start.

 

Like I said, I think Canadian teams playing in NASL for now and jumping ship to a Canadian league after making some noise (much like Vancouver and Montreal did in the NASL before the MLS jump) or going with a NASL "Canadian Division" is the way to go.

 

Just as a counterpoint to some of these:

 

Marketing - In both instances you have to convince people the league isn't bush. Again, I don't think the average sports fan in Winnipeg sees the NASL as a "thing" right now. We may have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

Sponsorship - Unless Wikipedia is wrong, right now the NASL has zero national sponsors with the exception of Voit who makes a custom ball for them. This is another instance where the Canadian investors hold all the chips. Why would they want to start out of the gate sharing their national sponsorships with a league that has a track record of not being able to find their own. The Canadian teams shouldn't prop up a league, they should be thankful to benefit from it.

 

Media - again, this league doesn't have TV deals that they are currently benefiting from, and adding Canadian teams won't improve their prospects for better TV contracts in the US. Again, why would the Canadian teams want to share the benefits of their contracts with a league that isn't providing any of their own.

 

Hammer, I think you brought up a lot of good points, I think the place we disagree is what we think a partnership with the NASL would mean. If the NASL was okay with Hamilton joining for a year or two while the C-League got built in the background with the understanding Hamilton jumped ship when it was formed I don't see a ton of harm in that, I just don't think the NASL would be okay with that.

[jedinathan]

But that's half the point, no one knows about NASL in Winnipeg because there's no point. You mention that a group in Winnipeg is looking to join the NASL, and there's bound to be a bunch of people looking into and becoming familiar with the league because there is potential. AND because the NASL has been around, you don't have to spend the time convincing those people that the league isn't going to fold in year 2 (BTW: the league is more stable than some have insinuated on here).

 

In terms of sponsorship, yes there are some league wide sponsors (Saiko comes to mind, as well as Voit). But sponsorship is much more in the NASL than just a few league sponsors. Ideally it would be nice to see a sponsor for the Cup, but sponsorship in the NASL model is more on the individual clubs rather than the league as a whole.

 

Long story short, there is the POTENTIAL for clubs to do better in a Canadian league. But to suggest that they would do better right out of the gate is rather short sighted. Time and energy needs to be invested in this. If the proper plan was there, it would make sense for clubs to join a Canadian League. If its just a disorganized mess, then its smarter to join something established

[lazlo_80]

Long story short, there is the POTENTIAL for clubs to do better in a Canadian league. But to suggest that they would do better right out of the gate is rather short sighted. Time and energy needs to be invested in this. If the proper plan was there, it would make sense for clubs to join a Canadian League. If its just a disorganized mess, then its smarter to join something established

 

I agree.

[-Hammer-]

I agree, Hamilton as a market is never going to get an MLS team and a USL team would be very underwhelming. If you believe the rumored league is still a ways away and what you're implying is that Bob Young wants to get something off the ground quickly than the NASL certainly provides him that option. How far away do you see it? How far away would it have to be to make it worth it to Bob Young to pull the franchise and eat the exit clause penalty?

 

 

 

I just don't see the NASL ever agreeing to this. Why would a league thats losing teams to the MLS (minnesota) or having trouble getting them off the ground (Virginia) be okay with being a holding league for a group of Canadian teams until they find a more suitable league? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this statement.

 

 

 

To the first paragraph, in my opinion I think the Canadian investors hold all the chips here. Why would you want to get involved with a league that can't provide any of these things for you on your own and give up control of the league itself? Wouldn't they be better served building the league from scratch and using their own contacts to ensure the newly created league works in a way that serves Canadian interests best rather than let the NASL have a say in any of that?

 

To your second point, I agree, the NASL does have more brand recognition that the C-league. So does USL-PDL, so does League 1 Ontario. In my opinion using the angle of a national Canadian league and leveraging the media and communication channels these CFL investors already have, you could have more people familiar with the C-League very quickly than anything NASL does for itself in Canada.

 

 

 

Just as a counterpoint to some of these:

 

Marketing - In both instances you have to convince people the league isn't bush. Again, I don't think the average sports fan in Winnipeg sees the NASL as a "thing" right now. We may have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

Sponsorship - Unless Wikipedia is wrong, right now the NASL has zero national sponsors with the exception of Voit who makes a custom ball for them. This is another instance where the Canadian investors hold all the chips. Why would they want to start out of the gate sharing their national sponsorships with a league that has a track record of not being able to find their own. The Canadian teams shouldn't prop up a league, they should be thankful to benefit from it.

 

Media - again, this league doesn't have TV deals that they are currently benefiting from, and adding Canadian teams won't improve their prospects for better TV contracts in the US. Again, why would the Canadian teams want to share the benefits of their contracts with a league that isn't providing any of their own.

 

Hammer, I think you brought up a lot of good points, I think the place we disagree is what we think a partnership with the NASL would mean. If the NASL was okay with Hamilton joining for a year or two while the C-League got built in the background with the understanding Hamilton jumped ship when it was formed I don't see a ton of harm in that, I just don't think the NASL would be okay with that.

 

Excellent discussion.

 

As far as how far away. I think we are at least a 5 years away, mainly because any CFL owners are occupied right now. Saskatchewan is building a new stadium, Winnipeg is hosting a Grey Cup, Calgary is trying to get a new stadium, Edmonton is an odd situation with FC Edmonton and the Esks being separate organizations and other MLS markets are a bit of a non-starter, nevermind only a few months ago did Hamilton actually publicly announce they hired full time soccer guys to make this work.

 

As far as NASL, expansion fees are still lucrative, as could potential disassociation fees. The NASL is starved for cash, and if "renting" a spot for a team to play in for a while makes decent cash and doesn't harm the brand as a whole (and in someways temporarily improves the brand with more teams) why not? Both sides just need to be clear, what relationship they are going to have. In addition, NASL has always had to walk a thin line with Canada due to USSF regulations. Right now NASL is in expansion mode, but if and when they hit 20 teams, suddenly Hamilton, Edmonton and other Canadian franchises may appear less lucrative then other US Markets, like say any number of California based teams in Sacramento, the Bay Area, LA, San Diego etc, Michigan, Southern States beyond Florida, Pennsylvania, Upstate New York and the list goes on. There are tons of untapped US markets, but no matter what they will always have to be bound by the USSF in someway (that is, unless the can get a separate CSA sanctioned division floated past the USSF which might also be a possibility, at which point a C-League is mute as NASL Canada would basically be that C-Leauge)

 

As far as starting from scratch being the better option. The crux of it is, is starting from scratch is a lot harder to market and to convince fans that you aren't a bush league. Especially when MLS and NASL has presence in markets you are looking to expand into. If there is a perception it's subpar (and easy perception to have by simply weaving teams out of nothing) then it won't sell and won't get off the ground.

 

To the other stuff, I'd still say they have a better odds of attracting sponsorship with more teams (Canadian or otherwise) then with fewer teams then the C-League would.

 

I think the route to take here is see where the NASL Canada league goes, if it's even still a thing. If it's not in NASL for a little while, then when this C-League is ready and you have a bit of a name for yourself, then jump ship. If NASL is that uncool with that prospect, then yeah I suppose a new, direct the C-Leauge route is the way to go. I just fear it won't go anywhere with the other two leagues having a vested interest in it not taking off, and those other leagues having already secured most of the high end Canadian talent (especially with USL pretty much gobbling domestic players up for them to rot on the farm). Then again, marketing can do wonders. I just strikes me as a tough sell.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

NASL is required to be 75% American.

 

The USSF can and does issue waivers to leagues over issues like that. They are not carved rigidly in stone. From what I remember, Edmonton needed a waiver initially, because its stadium did not meet the USSF's D2 sanctioning standards. London may get bigger crowds than Ottawa did in PDL, but a lot of that has to do with PDL being a much easier sell and a significantly bigger media story in a city with no major league teams. I think PDL is the realistic ceiling for cities like London and Victoria in the short to medium term. The realistic possibilities for a fully pro team that don't have one right now are Hamilton, Calgary, Winnipeg and possibly at a push Quebec City. Personally think it's unfortunate that the USL rather than the NASL wasn't the D2 (in CSA terms rather than USSF) league that was selected in a Canadian context, because if you factor in the three MLS reserve teams, it would be far from mission impossible to get a Canadian branded division off the ground. With no MLS franchise involvement, it's a lot more difficult to do. 

[Levi Oakey]

I'd love to see USSF just issue a waiver for a completely Canadian division in an American league.

 

I think that's wildly speculative to think USSF will just waive having an entire Canadian division. USSF issued waivers for NASL's lack of west coast team, or not having big enough stadiums. I highly doubt they are just going to let a whole Canadian Division exist inside of their D2 system, especially when you look at the way they treat Canadian players on US teams.

Again, if Duane is correct, we have, basically 10 teams ready to have operating budgets of 3 million a year and stadiums ready to play in. Right now, we have 2 teams playing NASL. Do you think, by 2017, that NASL will be ready to take on 8 new Canadian teams?

[Jason]

Good discussion here.  I suspect the CSA wants their own league that they would have great influence over, similar to the influence the USSF has over MLS (sometimes even to the detriment of MLS).  An NASL Canadian division would limit the CSA's ability to influence, so I suspect that is a less desirable option from their point of view at least.

 

Jason

[-Hammer-]

I'd love to see USSF just issue a waiver for a completely Canadian division in an American league.

 

I think that's wildly speculative to think USSF will just waive having an entire Canadian division. USSF issued waivers for NASL's lack of west coast team, or not having big enough stadiums. I highly doubt they are just going to let a whole Canadian Division exist inside of their D2 system, especially when you look at the way they treat Canadian players on US teams.

Again, if Duane is correct, we have, basically 10 teams ready to have operating budgets of 3 million a year and stadiums ready to play in. Right now, we have 2 teams playing NASL. Do you think, by 2017, that NASL will be ready to take on 8 new Canadian teams?

 

I don't think the NASL will ever be able to take on 8 Canadian teams, barring a massive expansion (we're talking in excess of 40 teams) with a full system of promotion/relegation, which is frankly, unrealistic, and even then I would expect the USSF to cap Canadian spots allowed per level of said league,

 

I do think the USSF would allow a degree of inter-divisional play between a Canadian division and a US Division? Yes, I do. Enough to really treat the operation as one league? That I doubt, beyond a maximum of a playoff derby and maybe at most a single home/athome series per team per year. However, that maximum I think I would be fine with. Seeing Ottawa vs Hamilton is a much better draw then Hamilton vs Tampa anyways.

 

The main issue is that the USSF want's their leagues to develop their players, not Canadian players who might one day rival the US team. They only tolerate Canada because of the financial gain their leagues get out of Canadian teams, and the contract obligations said leagues have cemented with the Canadian franchises. I think the complete best case/ideal situation is the Canadian franchises continue to play and get dropped into the NASL, continue to prepare for a Canadian league and then for NASL to lose their sanctioning/disband/release the Canadian teams allowing their teams to leave gracefully into a new Canadian league.

 

In a perfect world...heh.

[ted]

I do think the USSF would allow a degree of inter-divisional play between a Canadian division and a US Division? Yes, I do. Enough to really treat the operation as one league? That I doubt...

 

Doesn't really matter does it. If they "allow" inter-divsional play then it is de facto "one league" as there will be some sort of championship. Since the US teams will play in the USOC and Canadian teams will play in the V-Cup there is no conflict for CCL spots.

 

As for developing American players, I fail to see why agreeing to this would negatively impact the Americans. They really don't give a shit about what we do as even if we had more teams and more players playing at that level it would not be seen as any kind of threat. Let's be realistic, they are not out to actively hold back Canadian development because they have something like ten times our population. They do not even remotely consider us a threat.

[Macksam]

With all this talk of promotion/relegation for the NASL happening, I was wondering what people's thoughts are on having that system eventually implemented for a proposed Canadian league?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Rogue league? Why, because they don't follow what MLS wants and didn't want to become their farm team/minor league? Of course the MLS and USL fanboys may see the NASL in that light but its not a relevant point in discussing the NASL as a option for a Canadian Division/league. They're by no means a rogue league in reality, just have a view that they would rather follow the international league model instead of MLS's single entity or being a farm team/minor league.

 

Do you seriously believe that the NASL are being genuine on the pro/rel thing? Rightly or wrongly, the franchise model is now firmly entrenched and it would probably cost into the billions to undo it at this point, because all the franchise holders in the various leagues (and this includes those in the NASL) would have a very strong legal case for compensation if the value of the franchise they hold were suddenly to become worthless, because the USSF decided to change league structure models. Pro/rel isn't happening in other words, but the thinking clearly is that claiming to be in favour helps to make them look more authentic in some people's eyes.

 

As for the MLS/USL vs NASL fan boy thing, the only important thing from a Canadian soccer standpoint is to be on the winning side in a manner that best facilitates the future of the sport in Canada. The more I look at this stuff, the more I think that the hold up on expansion in cities like Hamilton and Calgary is related to the CSA having aligned itself with what now looks like the probable loser on that when a cold emotionally detached business approach is taken to that particular question. Once that analysis is made, the "C-League" scenario emerges as the only sensible plan B to a close NASL alignment, if the CSA remain opposed to USL entry, but putting the pieces together on something like that to run in parallel with MLS and possibly even the NASL in a manner that doesn't wind up crashing and burning like the original early 1980s CPSL or the original late 1980s to early 1990s CSL is a long shot at best.

[lazlo_80]

On the latest episode of the two solitudes podcast Duane had a few other pieces of news related to this league:

 

- FC Edmonton will definitely not be a part of the new league. Apparently they are two invested in NASL at this point. Though reading between the lines it sounds like Ottawa Fury will be a part of it.

 

- One reason FC Edmonton would not be joining is because the proposed salary budget is actually higher than what FC Edmonton currently has or wants to pay. Apparently salary would be similar to MLS when TFC joined the league in 2008 (1.5 Million or so)

 

- Expectation is league will be announced this fall, likely either around Belize match in September or the semi final round in November

 

- League would not follow a Single entity model like MLS.

 

I know there's different opinions about the source of this news, but interesting none the less.

[Soccerpro]

I don't understand where the deep pockets are going to come from for this proposed league.

I like Duane and respect his work, but I'll hold my breath until an actual official announcement is made for this league.

[tmcmurph]

On the latest episode of the two solitudes podcast Duane had a few other pieces of news related to this league:

 

- Expectation is league will be announced this fall, likely either around Belize match in September or the semi final round in November

 

I know there's different opinions about the source of this news, but interesting none the less.

Any bets that there will be no announcement by December first? I'll put a beer on it not happening. By that I mean no announcement by the people putting up money.

[lazlo_80]

I don't understand where the deep pockets are going to come from for this proposed league.

I like Duane and respect his work, but I'll hold my breath until an actual official announcement is made for this league.

 

Sounds like there's money from CFL owners and people involved in some NHL teams in certain markets from what he said.

[baulderdash77]

Interesting podcast.  It seems a bit less nebulous than before.

 

To answer Soccerpro's question about where the money is coming from- The CFL really knows how to leverage corporate support in Canada.  The big money for the league comes from Bob Young, some NHL owners, other CFL owners and Bell.

 

Besides Bell, the CFL has national advertising deals with some big companies:  Tim Hortons, GM, Nissan, Purolator, Safeway, Wendy's, Lowe's, Mark's Work Wearhouse and Shaw plus each team has local sponsors. 

 

Extending these deals to a new league and it's not unreasonable to think each team could get $1 million of national and local sponsorships.  Throw in a broadcast deal ($5 million per year or $0.5 million per team)  plus tickets, concessions in an 32 game season. 

 

5,000 fans x 16 games x $25 per ticket is about $2 million in gate receipts.

 

It's not that hard to come up with team budgets of $4 million and player budgets of $1.5 million if the league is well marketed with good sponsorships.  Certainly that level of corporate support doesn't exist in the NASL and that's really the big difference between the CFL operating a league in Canada with each game broadcasted and actual sponsors.

 

Also that $1.5 million player budget is going to be enough to field fully professional teams.  On a 24 player roster with a minimum salary of $40k each team is going to break out to probably 10 guys making the league min, 7 guys making $60k, 5 guys making $90k and maybe 2 guys making $110k.  If you think about that for a minute you'll realize it's going to be competitive with the mid to lower end of MLS and that's enough money to repatriate a bunch of guys from Europe and gut our overseas player pool. 

 

Also the fringe or younger MLS players would come to a C-League team making the same money and become starters every single week.  That would make a massive difference to Canadian soccer.