BREAKING NEWS: C-League news and what cities will be involved

[TRM]

Those examples are all in soccer crazed nations. This is Canada. Until Montreal signed Drogba they were starting to struggle at the gate. Dividing the market? I doubt that would work and the only city derby would be IF they met in the V's Cup. There would be nothing else. I have serious doubts about any soccer league competing against or ignoring our 3 largest markets.

[Macksam]

^^^^^^^Again, as I have stated before, I am adamant that Toronto could support another team.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Those examples are all in soccer crazed nations. This is Canada. Until Montreal signed Drogba they were starting to struggle at the gate. Dividing the market? I doubt that would work and the only city derby would be IF they met in the V's Cup. There would be nothing else. I have serious doubts about any soccer league competing against or ignoring our 3 largest markets.

Yeah, I wasn't directly comparing the two, I was just saying that's the allure of soccer, the intra city rivalries.  Whether it is financially feasible right away, I can't say for certain, but conceptually, I think even non-soccer fans might pay attention when its a city derby game.  But maybe I am being overly optimistic.  

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If the answer were that straightford, the Hamilton Steelers would still be playing the North York Rockets and Toronto Blizzard regularly in the original CSL. I think the main problem is this whole idea that MLS is deliberately excluding Canadian players and that the CSA needs to find an alternative. The unpalatable truth is that MLS rosters are light on Canadian content, primarily because Canada's youth player development now lags well behind what happens in the United States in contrast with what was the case back in the original NASL era when Canadians tended to dominate the North American roster content due to the strength of leagues like the NSL. The Academy programs and USL reserve teams should help to rectify that problem over time and we need to be patient for results on that given the investment required is being made by the three MLS franchises. If the CSA worked more constructively with MLS, an obvious approach to explore would be to have the three MLS reserve teams playing against teams from other large Canadian cities in a a Canadian branded division of USL Pro.

[-Hammer-]

If the CSA worked more constructively with MLS, an obvious approach to explore would be to have the three MLS reserve teams playing against teams from other large Canadian cities in a a Canadian branded division of USL Pro.

It's well and good to want a Canadian league to develop Canadian content, but the problem is you won't get owners unless you can make such a team financially viable. You aren't going to galvanize much fan support for a league where the teams are playing MLS reserve squads, because it becomes perceived as a farm league, and rightly fully so.

All of the other MLS reserve teams draw attendance in the hundreds, and even much higher quality NASL soccer in Edmonton is struggling to be viable (less so in Ottawa, which is why NASL level is what we should be shooting for). Heck, I'm pretty sure if you even mention TFC 2 to a typical TFC fan, they don't even know where they play.

You're simply not going to see a farm league drawing the attendance you need, nor are you going to see it pay players a wage that makes them consider soccer as a career choice out of highschool.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There is a USL team that gets over 10,000 spectators per game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_USL_season#Average_home_attendances

Fan support clearly can still be galvanized for non-reserve USL teams. Why could that not also happen in Canada? I am not sure why you think the NASL is of much higher quality than the USL. In head-to-head games in the US Open cup this year it was the USL teams that consistently won the games:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Lamar_Hunt_U.S._Open_Cup#Third_Round

[-Hammer-]

There is a USL team that gets over 10,000 spectators per game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_USL_season#Average_home_attendances

Fan support clearly can still be galvanized for non-reserve USL teams. Why could that not also happen in Canada? I am not sure why you think the NASL is of much higher quality than the USL. In head-to-head games in the US Open cup this year it was the USL teams that consistently won the games:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Lamar_Hunt_U.S._Open_Cup#Third_Round

Couple things

First, Sacramento has a Metro of 2 Million with a large hispanic population, and are around the size of Vancouver with no MLS team. Second they existed before the MLS reserve teams came into the league. In fact, it appears nearly all the teams playing with decent attendance existed before the MLS teams came on board. Third, look at the Canadian teams in your league, they are drawing in the hundreds with Vancouver a mere 1,600.

As far as NASL superiority, Giant killing happens with any open league. In the end only one USL team and one NASL team made it to the next round. A mere year ago the USL got a drumming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Lamar_Hunt_U.S._Open_Cup#Third_Round

Also, here in Canada, we don't have an open tournament to compare to...so Canadian branded USL and it's effect on the much smaller Voyaguers Cup, or the implications of allowing or disallowing these teams access to it aren't likely to be easily resolved.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I think the only new point made is that you are arguing that only USL clubs formed prior to the emergence of the MLS reserve teams are capable of drawing a large crowd. Loiusville City and St Louis FC were 2015 start-ups that averaged 6,765 and 4,885, respectively, so I am not sure that argument holds any water. If the CSA had a more constructive attitude towards MLS, it's quite possible that Canadian cities like Quebec City, Calgary and Winnipeg would currently be hosting MLS affiliated USL teams and would be succeeding at the box office in a similar sort of way.

[-Hammer-]

I think the only new point made is that you are arguing that only USL clubs formed prior to the emergence of the MLS reserve teams are capable of drawing a large crowd. Loiusville City and St Louis FC were 2015 start-ups that averaged 6,765 and 4,885, respectively, so I am not sure that argument holds any water. If the CSA had a more constructive attitude towards MLS, it's quite possible that Canadian cities like Quebec City, Calgary and Winnipeg would currently be hosting MLS affiliated USL teams and would be succeeding at the box office in a similar sort of way.

The point is your US markets have benefits that make a USL franchise more feasible then up here. Specifically a population base as larger then any potential Canadian USL expansion location and a population whose ethnicity that has historically favored soccer far more the other sports options. Also having a team in your league, literally draw 50 in attendance for a game is a massive embarrassment.

In my opinion, it's hard to have a positive attitude towards MLS as the CSA as it's effectively pigeon holed Canadian development in this country. I also do not feel that a farm league is going to draw, as historically with the exception of St.John's (who is the only game in town on the whole island and region) and Winnipeg (who had a strong fanbase already present due to the Jets departure) AHL Hockey has drawn average attendances at best in Canada, and that's Canada's game.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Louisville is comparable in size to Calgary and is only 2.9% Hispanic in population terms:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisville,_Kentucky#Demographics

so again I am not sure that argument holds any water. I am also not sure what you mean by "effectively pigeon holed" in terms of player development. Having three fully professional operations running professionally coached Academy programs and fully pro D2 level (if CSA sanctioning standards were to be applied properly) reserve teams is a massive advance on where things stood a decade ago. The key to further progress is for the CSA to work cooperatively with MLS rather than at cross-purposes with it, because the MLS pathway is clearly going to be the dominant one in the years ahead for the players with genuine CMNT aspirations that do not move overseas in their late teens. If players are not good enough to crack an MLS roster, we are really not going to want them anywhere near a CMNT roster a decade or so down the road, if World Cup qualification is going to become a regular occurrence once the MLS development pathway is fully up to speed.

 

 

[-Hammer-]

Louisville is comparable in size to Calgary and is only 2.9% Hispanic in population terms:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisville,_Kentucky#Demographics

so again I am not sure that argument holds any water. I am also not sure what you mean by "effectively pigeon holed" in terms of player development. Having three fully professional operations running professionally coached Academy programs and fully pro D2 level (if CSA sanctioning standards were to be applied properly) reserve teams is a massive advance on where things stood a decade ago. The key to further progress is for the CSA to work cooperatively with MLS rather than at cross-purposes with it, because the MLS pathway is clearly going to be the dominant one in the years ahead for the players with genuine CMNT aspirations that do not move overseas in their late teens. If players are not good enough to crack an MLS roster, we are really not going to want them anywhere near a CMNT roster a decade or so down the road, if World Cup qualification is going to become a regular occurrence once the MLS development pathway is fully up to speed.

 

 

As I stated earlier, in the US farm leagues are more commonly successful (probably because the beer is so cheap down there but I digress) in Canada, even the highest level of hockey farm teams struggle. It doesn't address the point that TFC 2, a USL team in what is supposedly our hottest market has drawn 50 people to a game and all the Canadian franchises, well bellow the USL average. It's not the framework I can see many independent owners wanting to get on board with.

Anyways, there are a total of 22 Canadian players playing in MLS, many of which aren't getting good minutes. If you remove the 9 players that the Canadian MLS teams are required to have on their roster, the number is 13. Neither of those numbers are anywhere near sufficient enough to benefit our national team, and no matter how much low grade USL development you throw at it, that's not going to meaningfully change so long as the rest of the world is still producing better talent, and MLS is USSF sanctioned. In fact, it's likely to falter far more as MLS draws in more money, increases it's cap and is able to buy better foreign talent from around the world, and compete with other domestic leagues for foreign players.

In MLS, 54 other players come from other CONCAAF nations (nevermind the overwhelming US majority who are also developing to our detriment), who are getting meaningful minutes which they can use for the benefit of their national teams to our detriment. This is in addition to their own various respective national leagues development, which have been far more successful at producing players for their national teams then MLS has for them. In fact pretty much every CONCAAF nation ahead of us in the rankings (which isn't an island that doesn't have the population to make a good domestic league) is mainly composed of players playing for their local domestic league. Probably because they have close to hundreds playing in their domestic leagues getting meaningful minutes. MLS is not benefiting their development in a meaningful fashion, why should we think it will somehow benefit ours? What because they let 3 Canadian 3rd division farm teams have Canadian player minimums? Because the local MLS teams decided to play nice with the CSA and let 3 token Canadians on the squad? Many of whom regrettably do nothing but warm the bench.

Also, do you honestly think that if the USL does get 2nd division sanctioning, that the USSF isn't going to slap on a US player requirement, just like they have on both NASL and MLS? Why would we want to tie ourselves to a league where in the blink of an eye, our local teams lose our ability to develop for our national team? Lets assume we get a Canadian version on the MLS farm system that is the USL (by the way 7 out of 28 are unaffiliated teams). So basically what's the end game here? We play against the MLS farms, expect it to make money and have legitimacy, and expect that MLS doesn't keep a cap on the league in the hopes it will develop enough players for us to take over the MLS foreign roster spots over the rest of the world?

What purpose is there to expanding local soccer to benefit MLS teams and through them, the US team more then our own national team? Is there some idea that somehow because we have joined a farm league that we might some say in, but not so much say that we aren't tied on a leash to US soccer above us and the financial interests of the MLS franchises, that magically every foreign roster spot in MLS is going to go to Canadian players who have vastly improved? I see expecting meaningful Canadian development from MLS and it's farm leagues as a far greater pipe dream then the C-League. At least one we could call our own and give our players guaranteed minutes at a level our association can dictate as opposed to hoping we are done right by MLS owners and the US association.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

[SuperCanuck]

Thanks for the update Jahinho.

To me it makes no sense to compete with the 3 MLS teams in our 3 largest markets or not play in our 3 largest markets. More NASL teams would be a good thing. It will be interesting to see if they do anything with USL.

I still think a national futsal league is the best way to go. It could play over the winter months when MLS & NASL are not playing, it would have much lower costs due to rosters of 11 players, could use existing university infrastructures for 1k-2k indoor attendance, it would be in our 3 largest markets (in fact the D1/2 teams would probably put a team in to provide more playing dev time for their younger players).

Where would the teams play?  Are there indoor facilities that are available in Canada in the winter for anything other than hockey?

Which cities/universities do you think would work best?

[TRM]

It would be small scale to start so most cities have at least one university with 2000+ seating capacity. The UofC has 3454 seats in their Jack Simpson gym for example. I wouldn't want to play in a hockey arena unless they take the boards down. Playing surface for the players and sight lines for the fans would be better in a gym.

The cities could include the 8-10 largest. Working with, not competing against, the MLS & NASL teams would help.

[ted]

...TFC 2, a USL team in what is supposedly our hottest market has drawn 50 people to a game and all the Canadian franchises, well bellow the USL average. It's not the framework I can see many independent owners wanting to get on board with.

I guess it depends on how you sell the team in your local market. I think attendances vary widely in the lower division and the low attendances in TO or Vancouver have no relation to the attendances in Charleston or Louisville.

The experience here in Victoria with the PCSL last summer (and for many years with Victoria United) to me sums up why it is not crippling to have some teams with pathetic numbers:  As a somewhat isolated and pro-sports-starved community, we got PAID attendances at Highlanders games in the PCSL last summer in the hundreds. When a couple of us went to attend the League's cup final in Vancouver we discovered that not only was there no paid admission, there was not even stands for spectators. It seems that off the Island the PCSL is a "mum, dad & girlfriend" league. That did not deter the spectators at Royal Athletic Park who enjoyed the games.

The reserve teams, located in the same cities as their parent will never have huge attendances but I see no reason why the independents and even the affiliates cannot do much better.

Oh, and for the record, no one in 2015 would describe Toronto as, "our hottest market".

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

 

Oh, and for the record, no one in 2015 would describe Toronto as, "our hottest market".

Assuming your implying it's Vancouver?  I'd have a tough time arguing with that if so.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Also, do you honestly think that if the USL does get 2nd division sanctioning, that the USSF isn't going to slap on a US player requirement, just like they have on both NASL and MLS? Why would we want to tie ourselves to a league where in the blink of an eye, our local teams lose our ability to develop for our national team?...

I think you fundamentally misunderstand why there are so few Canadian players on MLS rosters. There are not enough Canadian players with sufficiently high playing standards and an interest in playing in North America rather than Europe for there to be any chance of filling the standard domestic roster content requirement on three Canadian MLS teams. If there were the CSA could insist upon much more guaranteed Canadian roster content, just as they have insisted on stringent Canadian content requirements at the USL level. As things stand at the moment the MLS rosters need to be filled mainly with American players for the three Canadian franchises to be able to field competitive sides that will have some hope of attracting 20,000+ paid attendances.

[-Hammer-]

I think you fundamentally misunderstand why there are so few Canadian players on MLS rosters. There are not enough Canadian players with sufficiently high playing standards and an interest in playing in North America rather than Europe for there to be any chance of filling the standard domestic roster content requirement on three Canadian MLS teams. If there were the CSA could insist upon much more guaranteed Canadian roster content, just as they have insisted on stringent Canadian content requirements at the USL level. As things stand at the moment the MLS rosters need to be filled mainly with American players for the three Canadian franchises to be able to field competitive sides that will have some hope of attracting 20,000+ paid attendances.

The current domestic roster allotment for MLS is 9 spots guaranteed for Canadians and those spots are filled as stated earlier, and as stated earlier, there are enough good Canadians around to fill those spots playing in MLS (as evidenced by the handful of Canadian players playing as internationals). That fact alone however pretty much proves that the Canadian MLS teams don't want to pay to have local talent take up those spots, there is little incentive to hire a pricey Canadian (or more then one) to fill them vs buying some cheap Canadian subs (who don't count nearly as much towards the cap) and freeing up the cap to buy more cost effective foreign talent.

If your argument that the CSA could insist on more guaranteed Canadian roster requirements for the three MLS team because if we had more available talent I think you are dreaming. The reason is we have talent that could fill those spots with high end players, the problem is MLS doesn't want to pay for them to play here. Far easier to grab cheap benchwarmers to keep the CSA happy so we can get a few extra V.Cup games, something they clearly don't want to expanded and interfering with the MLS season. The three player minimum the CSA requested the teams to abide by only exists because the MLS teams don't want to wholly burn down that bridge. 

If your argument is that USL will lead to more Canadians being claimed by the three MLS teams over US domestic spots, I will agree there is a chance for that to happen. However, even if somehow you had all the talent in the world and you filled every MLS domestic spot on an MLS roster with a Canadian (and didn't have a better American to fill the spot) that amounts to 24 spots. Once again, not nearly enough to develop a strong national team.

Of course this all assumes the USSF doesn't rain down on the parade and eventual says "Too many Canadians coming in, not enough US development. We are not allowing the Canadians to be treated as domestics at all" which they could and have every right to do and any time. We need a league that the CSA sanctions that  has room to grow to one day challenge MLS, not a league designed to develop for MLS.

[mtlsab]

On 2/12/2015 at 7:30 PM, -Hammer- said:

As I stated earlier, in the US farm leagues are more commonly successful (probably because the beer is so cheap down there but I digress) in Canada, even the highest level of hockey farm teams struggle. It doesn't address the point that TFC 2, a USL team in what is supposedly our hottest market has drawn 50 people to a game and all the Canadian franchises, well bellow the USL average. It's not the framework I can see many independent owners wanting to get on board with.

Anyways, there are a total of 22 Canadian players playing in MLS, many of which aren't getting good minutes. If you remove the 9 players that the Canadian MLS teams are required to have on their roster, the number is 13. Neither of those numbers are anywhere near sufficient enough to benefit our national team, and no matter how much low grade USL development you throw at it, that's not going to meaningfully change so long as the rest of the world is still producing better talent, and MLS is USSF sanctioned. In fact, it's likely to falter far more as MLS draws in more money, increases it's cap and is able to buy better foreign talent from around the world, and compete with other domestic leagues for foreign players.

In MLS, 54 other players come from other CONCAAF nations (nevermind the overwhelming US majority who are also developing to our detriment), who are getting meaningful minutes which they can use for the benefit of their national teams to our detriment. This is in addition to their own various respective national leagues development, which have been far more successful at producing players for their national teams then MLS has for them. In fact pretty much every CONCAAF nation ahead of us in the rankings (which isn't an island that doesn't have the population to make a good domestic league) is mainly composed of players playing for their local domestic league. Probably because they have close to hundreds playing in their domestic leagues getting meaningful minutes. MLS is not benefiting their development in a meaningful fashion, why should we think it will somehow benefit ours? What because they let 3 Canadian 3rd division farm teams have Canadian player minimums? Because the local MLS teams decided to play nice with the CSA and let 3 token Canadians on the squad? Many of whom regrettably do nothing but warm the bench.

Also, do you honestly think that if the USL does get 2nd division sanctioning, that the USSF isn't going to slap on a US player requirement, just like they have on both NASL and MLS? Why would we want to tie ourselves to a league where in the blink of an eye, our local teams lose our ability to develop for our national team? Lets assume we get a Canadian version on the MLS farm system that is the USL (by the way 7 out of 28 are unaffiliated teams). So basically what's the end game here? We play against the MLS farms, expect it to make money and have legitimacy, and expect that MLS doesn't keep a cap on the league in the hopes it will develop enough players for us to take over the MLS foreign roster spots over the rest of the world?

What purpose is there to expanding local soccer to benefit MLS teams and through them, the US team more then our own national team? Is there some idea that somehow because we have joined a farm league that we might some say in, but not so much say that we aren't tied on a leash to US soccer above us and the financial interests of the MLS franchises, that magically every foreign roster spot in MLS is going to go to Canadian players who have vastly improved? I see expecting meaningful Canadian development from MLS and it's farm leagues as a far greater pipe dream then the C-League. At least one we could call our own and give our players guaranteed minutes at a level our association can dictate as opposed to hoping we are done right by MLS owners and the US association.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

So true! Nothing to add! Well said!

[shamrock]

On 3 december 2015 at 9:48 PM, -Hammer- said:

If your argument that the CSA could insist on more guaranteed Canadian roster requirements for the three MLS team because if we had more available talent I think you are dreaming. The reason is we have talent that could fill those spots with high end players, the problem is MLS doesn't want to pay for them to play here. Far easier to grab cheap benchwarmers to keep the CSA happy so we can get a few extra V.Cup games, something they clearly don't want to expanded and interfering with the MLS season.

High end players? Wow. And you'd have it that the 3 Canadian MLS teams should go out of their way to pay for these few players, who'd then know they were in high demand and could ask ridiculous salaries. In effect, this would put he Canadian teams back compared to the US teams. 

Also I read that they keep giving chances to cheap Americans, while in reality most of the clubs are looking south of the border for high quality players who are relatively cheap. 

[-Hammer-]

8 hours ago, shamrock said:

High end players? Wow. And you'd have it that the 3 Canadian MLS teams should go out of their way to pay for these few players, who'd then know they were in high demand and could ask ridiculous salaries. In effect, this would put he Canadian teams back compared to the US teams. 

Also I read that they keep giving chances to cheap Americans, while in reality most of the clubs are looking south of the border for high quality players who are relatively cheap. 

The fact we have players beyond those nine spots playing in non-domestic spots in MLS is proof they exist. No, what I would do (if I was going to actually develop Canadian players in MLS) would be to force the domestic player requirement for Canadian MLS teams to be composed mainly of Canadians and have mandatory Canadian starters. That would force these MLS teams to engage in meaningful Canadian development to stay competitive. However, that's not going to happen, MLS and the USSF isn't looking to develop Canadians, it's looking to make money and develop US players.

As far as chances to cheap Americans, they have no choice but to. MLS has a US domestic player requirement. They can't field an entire non-domestic roster.

[marauder01]

For those interested Hamilton have created a supporters group in preparation for the future CPL team. Social media can be followed on the links below for those interested.

 

https://www.facebook.com/BartonStBattalion/

https://twitter.com/BartonBattalion

[shamrock]

On 27 januari 2016 at 5:11 PM, -Hammer- said:

The fact we have players beyond those nine spots playing in non-domestic spots in MLS is proof they exist. 

Yes, there are some. But not a lot and certainly not all of them high-end players.

On 27 januari 2016 at 5:11 PM, -Hammer- said:

 No, what I would do (if I was going to actually develop Canadian players in MLS) would be to force the domestic player requirement for Canadian MLS teams to be composed mainly of Canadians and have mandatory Canadian starters. That would force these MLS teams to engage in meaningful Canadian development to stay competitive. 

And it would give the US-teams a huge advantage in the short term. Maybe the interest of the Canadian public in MLS or soccer in general would hurt if the Canadian clubs would consistently be bottom-table clubs (insert TFC jokes here). Of course you are right, but it would require league-wide implementation, which of course is impossible in a foreign league.

On 27 januari 2016 at 5:11 PM, -Hammer- said:

However, that's not going to happen, MLS and the USSF isn't looking to develop Canadians, it's looking to make money and develop US players.

True.

On 27 januari 2016 at 5:11 PM, -Hammer- said:

As far as chances to cheap Americans, they have no choice but to. MLS has a US domestic player requirement. They can't field an entire non-domestic roster.

Canadian teams aren't allowed to field en entire Canadian team? Surely they could (in theory of course). 

[-Hammer-]

7 hours ago, shamrock said:

Canadian teams aren't allowed to field en entire Canadian team? Surely they could (in theory of course). 

I think I might have misinterpreted this one. You are correct, the Canadian teams could field an all Canadian roster. They won't due to the 3rd point and franlly I don't expect them to. No matter what the league, and this includes the new CPL, you need a foreign player component, not only so you can put bodies in seats with typically better bang for your buck talent, but also so that your existing players can benefit from playing with them and people trained in different ways by different people as well. Iron sharpens iron.

My impression however was that when you were talking about teams fielding cheap Americans, you were referring to the league as a whole, and looking south, you were referring to South America and the other CONCAAF nations. Not sure how my line of though.

7 hours ago, shamrock said:

And it would give the US-teams a huge advantage in the short term. Maybe the interest of the Canadian public in MLS or soccer in general would hurt if the Canadian clubs would consistently be bottom-table clubs (insert TFC jokes here). Of course you are right, but it would require league-wide implementation, which of course is impossible in a foreign league.

True, but but the CSA/This theoretical MLS/USSF combo that cares about developing players from the Canadian National team; shouldn't be overly concerned with short term on field performance unless it massive jeopardizes the team's existence, which I don't think it would. I suppose you could offset it somewhat by having a temporary extra non-domestic spot allocation that expires when you feel that short term has expired, but I'm sure the rest of the league would scream bloody murder. However, as you said fundamentally, an impossibility in a foreign league anyway.

[jedinathan]

This is the giant catch 22 about this potential league. The quality just isn't there to have a high level of play with a majority of players being Canadian right now. However, the only way to get a high level of play is to have a domestic league.

Because of this, I'm cautious about assuming that Edmonton and Ottawa (yes, I'm not sure about Ottawa) will jump to the Canadian league when it launches. There's a lot to lose going over for both of them ($1 Mil USD for one, forfeiting all shares and investments in the NASL for another), and while the recent Ottawa dumping of player salaries MIGHT be seen as a way for them to make back this loss, I don't know that they'll do it. I imagine that there will be quite a few fans who will be VERY disappointed this year in Ottawa (I have them at the bottom of the table as it stands), and that's a lot of momentum to lose going into a very unproven league.