BREAKING NEWS: C-League news and what cities will be involved

[An Observer]

I would suspect that the issue with a Canadian division is around control, future growth and share of revenues for the CSA and the teams.  I would suspect the USSF would still exert significant control even if there is a Canadian division of the NASL and they haven't shown themselves to be very willing to be flexible when it comes to Canada (eg. Canadians as domestics in MLS and NASL).  I also don't see how a Canadian division solves the 25% requirement the USSF has stipulated. Is the CSA really going to put your effort into growing such a division if the USSF can screw you at any time going forward (especially considering their track record).  I suspect not as it doesn't make a lot of business sense for the CSA to invest its time and energy in something it cant control with a partner like that.

 

On the NASL, will they let a bunch of Canadian teams into the league without charging them an entry fee (which is in the $3m range now)? And if they do charge one, where will that entry fee go?  Probably not wholly to the building of the Canadian division.  What about revenue share of any Canadian national TV deal? And can you find a corporate sponsor (at least at the same level) for only a division rather than a league?

 

If the C-league really has a TSN multi-year TV deal and league corporate sponsor(s) with 6 to 8 teams agreed to signing up, much better to invest the $3m NASL fee each would have to pay in your own league where you can exercise full control and have 100% of the revenue.  I don't think the NASL brand has that big a cache in Canada to result in giving up any control or revenue.  As for Edmonton and Ottawa, the C-league may need to agree some sort of a deal with them to waive any or part of the entry fee and/or help pay the exit fee.  I do wonder whether a team could simply fold and restart in the new league without paying the exit fee but that may actually require a complete rebranding and some new investors (eg. Eskimos or Oilers) which to be honest might not be a bad thing for a new league anyway as it could be spun as something bigger and better than the NASL.  It would be interesting to see the legals on that exit requirement.  Also, I wonder what would happen if the CSA simply refused them sanctioning going forward.  That could be an out without having to pay an exit fee as I would suspect no team would have signed up to an agreement that they would have to pay an exit fee if it was beyond their control (ie. sanctioning by the national body).

[Vic]

Unfortunately for your (BBTB) constant maligning of a Canadian league and promotion of American interests, I think FIFA mandated it.

[CDNFootballer]

^^^That line of argument was valid up to the point that the three Canadian MLS teams actually started to get serious about the development of Canadian players by launching the three D2 level (by the CSA's definitions of what constitutes D2 rather than the USSF's) USL teams with predominantly Canadian rosters. 

 

 

CSA recognizes NASL as D2 - they do not recognize D3 Usl's 3 Cnd MLS farm teams as D2 or D2 "level" because they aren't.

 

Whitecaps farm team are so serious about Cnd development that they apparently haven't met the quota of Canadian players on the field in multiple games even though they could if they wished.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Well aware of that, but USL does actually fit the CSA's D2 sanctioning standard for something that is pro level and coast-to-coast in scope rather than regional or provincial. The CSA's sanctioning standards are different from the USSF's and don't have all the recently added requirements for D2 such as $20 million net worth for the principal investor, most franchises in metropolitan areas of greater than $750,000 etc. The CSA choose to regard USL as D3 and have blocked its entry into Canada for reasons you are well aware of, and hence choose to pretend that fully pro level operations that can draw crowds of 5000+ like the Rochester Rhinos are directly comparable to L1O and PLSQ teams when clearly they are not.

 

Beyond that it isn't so important what is happening right now only a few months after the start up of these D2 level (in reality if not in official sanctioning) USL teams because D1 level Canadian prospects can not suddenly be wished into existence given how far the Canadian youth development system fell behind that of the US from the mid-90s onwards. What matters more is their intent on where things will be in five years time when the Academy systems have fully bedded in as Bobby Lenarduzzi pointed out recently. That intent is what makes it far from clear that there is still a niche available for a "C-League" as a 1A operation and seriously undermines a lot of the original rationale for the formation of such a league.

[Blackdude]

CSA has never  sanctioned USL teams as  D2 or D3. Please tell me where it is said that the CSA has said that it's D2 or D3. They are a reserve league, that's what it is. Is the Premier League reserve league D2? No, it's not. Why do we need to say that USL is D3 or Dwhatever? Since MLS said that USL became their reserve league next year and all clubs needed a reserve team, that's why the USL teams exist, CSA sanctioned them as reserve league teams with strong quota, but nobody has said it was D2 or D3.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I am aware of that. My argument was only that if the CSA were to sanction USL, so that Canadian non-reserve teams could enter as at least three wanted to at one point (London, Victoria PDL plus a group in Oakville that ultimately became the PDL team in Hamilton that subsequently moved to Kitchener), it would fit their D2 sanctioning standards, because it is fully pro and coast-to-coast in scale rather than regional and semi-pro like L1O and PLSQ.

[ThiKu]

Why should we do that? It would alienate V's who travel a lot and who have chosen to support some other team.  Not everybody can make it and I don't know how it would be a good idea because we would have even weaker home support. Sure give them first crack, but not only to them.

 

Um, I don't think you understand at all what I was saying....let me break it down for you.

 

C-League has a twice yearly jamboree where over 2 days each team plays 1 game (4 games total in the league - 2 per day). Have the jamboree count as league games. Have it played in one city that rotates amongst the 8 league teams. Have the national team play thus have it on an international calendar. Exposes the national team to the rest of the country. How exactly does it "punish" V's who travel!? LOL it encourages V's to travel as well.

 

Why would we get "weaker" how support when the stands would be filled with C-League fans!? Can still arrange a V's section for the national team game....

[dmont]

.

 

Sorry, I now firmly believe that Duane Rollins is full of crap. I don't believe a word he has to say on this topic. If it turns out he was right, feel free to tell me "I told you so", but don't hold your breath.

 

P.S. This C-League thing is a terrible idea, and anyone interested in a franchise should launch in NASL. It's hard enough to build a franchise without having to build a whole league at the same time.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Why would USSF approve something that will benefit CONCACAF rival?   How would Canadian soccer benefit more in NASL than C-league?  

 

A year ago the rumour that was being peddled by CSN was that the NASL and CFL were going to cooperate on a Canadian league:

 

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/csa-cfl-and-nasl-to-launch-canadian-league-r4701

 

...There could be as many as seven teams involved, all affiliated with local CFL teams and playing in CFL stadiums....The league would be affiliated with the American NASL. The format would likely resemble Major League Baseball with two distinct leagues operating in close cooperation. There would be some inter-league play and the Soccer Bowl would likely be played between the two champions....

 

That suggests strongly that the "C-League" as currently rumoured was not what was originally envisaged by the people involved and that the NASL was a big part of the original plan. Let's be charitable to Duane Rollins and assume the people who want to launch this league do actually exist, just as Gerry Gentile did genuinely exist and there were lots of pizza lunches for those who know their Canadian soccer history. On that basis it appears that the CFL and NASL (and by extension FC Edmonton and the Ottawa Fury) did not buy into the concept that was supposed according to the blog to be launching as early as 2016 with Hamilton and Calgary potentially being in the NASL by this summer in preparation. What is unfolding looks like a case of Yogi Berra's deja vu all over again for anyone that remembers the trajectory followed by CUSL. The people with the money invested in the A-League franchises steered well clear, while the people with the vision kept tilting at windmills. 

[-Hammer-]

Multiple sources, none of them public.

 

Even odder, he references an interview on July 31st where Pugh says it's not in the works as far as he knows

 

 

Our national team coach is promoting that idea as something that is necessary. There are a lot of Canadian players playing around the world and not in Canada. Canada has three MLS teams and two NASL teams. That’s not a lot for a country the size of Canada. So yeah, it would be better if we had that, but we also have to have the strong ownership groups that have the ability to operate them at a high level. Our country is at a disadvantage being so stretched from east to west. Yes, does Canada need it’s own league? I think we’d all like to see that. But we need to make sure it’s something that is going to be viable and sustainable for a long period of time. Are there other cities that could sustain an NASL team besides Ottawa and Edmonton? Yeah, I think there are a couple. But has anyone come out concrete and said ‘yes we’re going to do this’? No, I don’t believe so.

 

I'm skeptical. I'm skeptical that no other media outlet has made these leaks (especially TSN who would be a possible television partner who may have a vested interest in making such a leak), I'm skeptical that such a league would try to take the MLS bull by the horns and try to squeeze into those markets. I feel that this post changes nothing in regards to what we know.

[dmont]

One thing that nags at me is Bob Young's posts about the future of soccer in Hamilton. To my knowledge, he hasn't referenced NASL in any of his recent posts about his soccer plans. It's all very vague stuff about "big things coming", "lots going on behind the scenes", and bringing "top-flight pro soccer" to Hamilton. Plus, if he really thinks that NASL is the ways to go, what's the friggin' hold-up? In the cutthroat world of Div 2 and 3 soccer in the US, NASL would drool over the chance to secure a franchise with 1) economies of scale with a second pro sports franchise, 2) management rights secured to an awesome stadium, and 3) absolutely zero chance of ever bolting to MLS.

 

That's the one thing that makes me think people might really be trying to start up this C-league thing. If true, I think Bob and the other organizers are seriously mistaken and misguided. Luckily, in this matter, I think time is our friend. The longer it takes any supposed C-league to get off the ground, the shorter the duration in which Bob has exclusive soccer rights to the stadium. That prospect should push Bob to choose a franchise in NASL, giving him a chance to build a franchise in a (relatively) more stable league, and an option to move that franchise to a new league in the future if one arises. 

[lazlo_80]

I just don't understand how any Canadian soccer supporters could be against this. 

[Dub Narcotic]

It is noteworthy that Rollins cites 'multiple sources' in this report, confirming that there was just one source before. Most journalists would not publish that first story.

[-Hammer-]

I just don't understand how any Canadian soccer supporters could be against this. 

 

Well, I'm probably going to get some flack for this response, but there are some who feel that the MLS can do no wrong, that the fact we have big league soccer is enough, that it's in the three largest markets (and thus clearly the only markets that matter) and that they are doing enough for our national teams and that it's solely the CSA who is at fault as far as our national team is concerned, because clearly MLS teams who are composed mainly of foreign players and only have to have three Canadians on the roster and occasional develop players that aren't good enough to play on the MLS team, that somehow that's enough.

 

Although to be fair, IMO most people of this ilk think of the National team as an afterthought, merely that "We are part of a big (US) league, and we play major league teams. That's enough for us"

 

One thing that nags at me is Bob Young's posts about the future of soccer in Hamilton. To my knowledge, he hasn't referenced NASL in any of his recent posts about his soccer plans. It's all very vague stuff about "big things coming", "lots going on behind the scenes", and bringing "top-flight pro soccer" to Hamilton. Plus, if he really thinks that NASL is the ways to go, what's the friggin' hold-up? In the cutthroat world of Div 2 and 3 soccer in the US, NASL would drool over the chance to secure a franchise with 1) economies of scale with a second pro sports franchise, 2) management rights secured to an awesome stadium, and 3) absolutely zero chance of ever bolting to MLS.

 

That's the one thing that makes me think people might really be trying to start up this C-league thing. If true, I think Bob and the other organizers are seriously mistaken and misguided. Luckily, in this matter, I think time is our friend. The longer it takes any supposed C-league to get off the ground, the shorter the duration in which Bob has exclusive soccer rights to the stadium. That prospect should push Bob to choose a franchise in NASL, giving him a chance to build a franchise in a (relatively) more stable league, and an option to move that franchise to a new league in the future if one arises. 

 

 I think, it's a case that soccer in Canada is a house of cards. Sure you have three MLS teams that aren't going anywhere, but they aren't doing it for our national team. So you need to start up a new franchise, so I guess you default to the NASL who may or may not have sanctioning issues and may or may not be in the middle of a scandal that may or may not effect that league, that you have a Canadian league that may or may not exsist with CFL owners who may or may not be interested and if they are having tons of logistics to sort out starting a league from scratch, and then you have USL who may or may not get division 2 sanctioning from the NASL and may or may not be too bush league to make a serious financial go at having a franchise. Too many shifting pieces to say "Here's what we are doing"

[CDNFootballer]

I just don't understand how any Canadian soccer supporters could be against this. 

 

Many are MLS and by extention USL fanboys wanting to tie Canada in to the foreign US league's system.

 

Hopefully if this National Canadian D1A "C-League" comes to fruition they will support it fully but some will continue with their hard on for the foreign leagues I'm sure.

[tmcmurph]

lazlo_80, on 03 Aug 2015 - 2:53 PM, said:

I just don't understand how any Canadian soccer supporters could be against this. 

 

Many are MLS and by extention USL fanboys wanting to tie Canada in to the foreign US league's system.

 

Hopefully if this National Canadian D1A "C-League" comes to fruition they will support it fully but some will continue with their hard on for the foreign leagues I'm sure.

 

Not against it. Just want more than "unnamed sources say" and "wait, wait again, wait some more" and "big things being worked on". That and all the other bullshit around this has done nothing but block playing opportunities for the last 5 years. Sorry but it is long past the "shit or get off the pot" time. I'd love to be wrong but this has gone nowhere and every date has passed with nothing to show. That leaves me very cynical.

 

I'd love to suddenly get 8 pro teams dropped into the Canadian soccer landscape. That would be a lot of opportunities for Canadians.

 

Being part of USSF is not perfect, far from it, but it beats NOTHING which is what we have now and will have for the future.

 

So the question really becomes not one of being a fanboy for USSF sanctioned teams but one of wanting more teams for the last 5 years and seeing nothing happen. The only reason we have 3 USL teams is because the MLS teams got them through. If the CSA were in charge we'd still be waiting with 3 less teams.

.

To all the people supporting this the question becomes "How long do you wait?". If there is no money on the table and owners named by the end of 2015 do you wait another year? Two? Three?

[lazlo_80]

Based on what is being said the announcement would come as late as jan 2016 and the league would start in 2017. I'd be comfortable waiting until then to find out. In that amount of time the only opportunity that could be missed would likely be one more team in the NASL (Hamilton).

 

You keep mentioning the last 5 years. I believe Duane's first report of it was roughly a year ago, where does the 5 year thing come from? Just curious. I admit I haven't heard every rumor, but Duane Rollins report from a year ago was when I thought it sort of started catching serious heat. 

[nolbertos]

There were rumours a decade ago that a CUSL was gonna start and nothing happened BTW. Over the last 15 years, the CSA has commissioned two reports on the state of Canadian soccer and the conditions required to create a league and both times they haven't followed up on it. I'm a cynisist and pessimist of Duane Rollins and others thinking that the dream was never dead just in hibernation. I honestly think its been in hibernation longer than that. If it weren't for the Caps, Lynx and Impact in the late 90's, professional futbol in Canada of any kind would've disappeared and we'd in worse shape than now. I think we gotta work with what we have and not some mythical unicorn that pops up every once in awhile saying that there are owners wanting a C-league. If most of you guys wanna keep waiting thats up to you, but I prefer supporting my local MLS, USL. NASL side in the present and most of you guys should too, rather than waiting on something that has a low chance of happening.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You keep mentioning the last 5 years. I believe Duane's first report of it was roughly a year ago, where does the 5 year thing come from? Just curious. I admit I haven't heard every rumor, but Duane Rollins report from a year ago was when I thought it sort of started catching serious heat. 

 

From what I remember the possible CFL involvement was first reported well before that in the Globe and Mail when a D2 league was being actively explored to launch in tandem with the 2015 Women's World Cup, so that's probably why 5 years comes into it. One of the reasons for skepticism on this is that this has moved from being reported by the mainstream media with CSA execs giving radio interviews about it to being the sole domain of a blogger.

[lazlo_80]

There were rumours a decade ago that a CUSL was gonna start and nothing happened BTW. Over the last 15 years, the CSA has commissioned two reports on the state of Canadian soccer and the conditions required to create a league and both times they haven't followed up on it. I'm a cynisist and pessimist of Duane Rollins and others thinking that the dream was never dead just in hibernation. I honestly think its been in hibernation longer than that. If it weren't for the Caps, Lynx and Impact in the late 90's, professional futbol in Canada of any kind would've disappeared and we'd in worse shape than now. I think we gotta work with what we have and not some mythical unicorn that pops up every once in awhile saying that there are owners wanting a C-league. If most of you guys wanna keep waiting thats up to you, but I prefer supporting my local MLS, USL. NASL side in the present and most of you guys should too, rather than waiting on something that has a low chance of happening.

 

I don't think anyone is not supporting the existing teams and leagues based on the idea of waiting for this league. In fact, I'd argue some of the biggest supporters of this league are also some of the biggest supporters of existing Canadian teams.

 

I could be wrong but one of those commissioned reports suggested building regional semi-pro leagues, which has in fact been followed through in both ontario and quebec.

[lazlo_80]

From what I remember the possible CFL involvement was first reported well before that in the Globe and Mail when a D2 league was being actively explored to launch in tandem with the 2015 Women's World Cup, so that's probably why 5 years comes into it. One of the reasons for skepticism on this is that this has moved from being reported by the mainstream media with CSA execs giving radio interviews about it to being the sole domain of a blogger.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I certainly understand the skepticism and cynicism given the circumstances. What I don't understand is people who just flat out wouldn't want this to happen.

[Vic]

I just don't understand how any Canadian soccer supporters could be against this. 

 

Like Dr. Lanning said in I, Robot - " that detective, is the right question."

[Levi Oakey]

I am getting less interested in the C-League but I definitely wouldn't say I oppose the league.

My two points against C-League are:

 

1. Can the CSA finish what it starts? We were supposed to have a D3 cross the country but this was ill-defined and now looks increasingly poorly supported. The C-League is looking more and more like a group of people who loved an idea (Pro Canadian League) and are doing anything they can to make it work, potentially to their own detriment. We have MLS, NASL, and USL PDL teams and frankly no clear vision from the top on where everything fits together.

 

2. CFL owners are not soccer owners. I get that the CFL means we have money, I am just worried about the general end product. Again, the CSA has to be on their game to get this right and being the league still seems very rushed, I am worried they won't be. 

At the end of the day, I want a Canadian League, I just hope we do it right. I also support my local club and would find it hard to cheer for yet another Toronto team or a Hamilton team. Like Lord Bob I would say that even in the worst case scenario, I still would take a league over anything else, I just want to see it done right. I want our league to be the envy of a trumped up MLS, a league that we developed in our own way, and not over a night.

[lazlo_80]

I am getting less interested in the C-League but I definitely wouldn't say I oppose the league.

My two points against C-League are:

 

1. Can the CSA finish what it starts? We were supposed to have a D3 cross the country but this was ill-defined and now looks increasingly poorly supported. The C-League is looking more and more like a group of people who loved an idea (Pro Canadian League) and are doing anything they can to make it work, potentially to their own detriment. We have MLS, NASL, and USL PDL teams and frankly no clear vision from the top on where everything fits together.

 

2. CFL owners are not soccer owners. I get that the CFL means we have money, I am just worried about the general end product. Again, the CSA has to be on their game to get this right and being the league still seems very rushed, I am worried they won't be. 

At the end of the day, I want a Canadian League, I just hope we do it right. I also support my local club and would find it hard to cheer for yet another Toronto team or a Hamilton team. Like Lord Bob I would say that even in the worst case scenario, I still would take a league over anything else, I just want to see it done right. I want our league to be the envy of a trumped up MLS, a league that we developed in our own way, and not over a night.

 

 

I think your position makes a ton of sense and there's a ton of value to what you're saying. A few thoughts on your points...

 

To your first point, this could be the CSA's one last chance to take control of the soccer system in this country and pry it away from US-driven leagues. This to me is probably the most exciting thing about it. With respect to D3, you have two provinces with D3 leagues that have added more teams in each season. While we would love this to be happening across the country, I wouldn't say it's been a failure.

 

To your second point, football owners are soccer owners. Football owners started the MLS, Other ones own teams across the world now. Good business leadership is good business leadership, especially if they already have a background in sports team ownership. I would argue this has been anything but rushed—in fact that's where I think the frustration stems from, these little whispers of something happening but nothing concrete being announced. Being rushed would be the opposite of this where we hear the league is starting but they're still figuring out the details. This has the opposite feel, noone is going on the record about anything, because hopefully if and when they do it's all very buttoned up.

 

To your point about it being the envy of the MLS, it never will be. I'd love it to be that too, but the population alone means it's never going to happen. The Dutch league is a fantastic league and obviously an incredible vessel for development, but it'll never be the bundesliga. Those are just the socio-economic realities of todays global market.

[Levi Oakey]

I guess I shouldn't have said Envy from MLS, more so envy of American soccer fans.

 

Imagine if we had a high function D3 that would actually help create this new C-League and then we introduce the sort of mechanisms (promotion/relegation, free agency even real grassroots supporters development) that many Americans wish MLS had.

 

Your right about the rumours being around for awhile, I just wish that the CSA itself would actually confirm these sorts of things. Although there are those of us who have heard that this league is coming, whenever it is announced, I could see it being an absolute bombshell for the general population. I even chat with other supporters I know and they basically don't believe it.