BREAKING NEWS: C-League news and what cities will be involved

[ted]

... they may want to consider a twice/season "jamboree" of sorts where they have all 8 teams playing  ...

 

No, no a thousand times no!!

Why in the name of all that is holy would you want to devalue the product so much? Why would you want to make potential sponsors, investors and fans think this is like a bunch of small children arunning around all day where every players gets a participant medal?

 

Play league games and make the V-Cup more like the FA or US Open Cup and we get plenty of good games. Gimmicks are not neccessary.

 

 

 

Why would USSF approve something that will benefit CONCACAF rival?   How would Canadian soccer benefit more in NASL than C-league? 

 

The only reason I can see USSF going for it is if they wish to bolster the NASL. The NASL has had issues and needs more teams and a better profile in the media. Adding a "Canadian Division" could be sold to the media as an improvement.

 

Frankly I still believe that the NASL route offers a small advantage in that it expands the number of competitive games without having to play the same teams multiple times in a season.

 

 

 

... the USL teams exist, CSA sanctioned them as reserve league teams with strong quota, but nobody has said it was D2 or D3.

 

This is true. The CSA does not recognize the reserve teams as independant entities. They are simply extensions of the MLS teams.

 

I just don't understand how any Canadian soccer supporters could be against this. 

 

I think we are being cautious because since the last time we got here it has taken us 15 years to try and recover from the wreckage.

[Jason]

I realize this is totally pie in the sky, but what if say that the top 4 C-League clubs and top 4 NASL clubs each year qualified for a C-League/NASL tournament the following year?  It would be a chance to play some different clubs in competition (including the NASL Cdn clubs) and we know that beyond V-Cup matches, we won't see MLS clubs play the C-League in anything meaningful.  NASL has US Open Cup to deal with, but even if it was as simply as an 8 team bracket playing home and home midweek, it would be something that would get my attention.  However, I don't really know what would be in it for NASL.  They want to be discussed with MLS.  If their clubs lost out to some C-League teams it would look very bad for them. 

 

Jason

[Jason]

 

2. CFL owners are not soccer owners. I get that the CFL means we have money, I am just worried about the general end product. Again, the CSA has to be on their game to get this right and being the league still seems very rushed, I am worried they won't be. 

 

Nobody else is coming to the table.  I'd rather have an experience and successful non-soccer sports club do it as opposed to someone who loves soccer but has not idea what he's doing.  We know the 4 CFL clubs presumably involved (Cgy, Sask, Wpg, Ham) will be a reliable base for the league.  The other clubs are unknown quantities at this point.  It's nice to have a bit of certainty.

 

Jason

[Jason]

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/c-league-cities-r5374

 

C-League cities

Jul 31 2015 05:28 PM | Duane Rollins in 24th Minute

Multiple sources are confirming the cities that will be involved in the C-League launch. Currently, there are committed backers in eight cities.

The launch target remains Spring 2017.

The markets involved are:

Vancouver, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa and Montreal.

Organizers remain hopeful that Edmonton investors can be convinced to come on board, but relationships there are strained.

Due to confidentiality agreements, the names of the investors are being kept under close wraps. However, it’s been strongly suggested that much of the money is linked to the CFL. The Calgary Flames have also been rumoured to be involved in that city.

The investors in the three MLS cities are not attached to the MLS sides. There is no suggestion that the MLS teams will be pressured to leave, with investors preferring a “Welsh model” of sorts to the Canadian pyramid – a few teams separate from the C-League competing in a foreign league (i.e. Swansea City in the Premier League), while maintaining a top flight Canadian league as well.

The NASL teams are the biggest question. It’s thought that the investors would prefer to launch with both NASL sides coming on board, but neither has 100 percent committed to moving. It’s unclear whether the Ottawa market has a second set of investors ready in case the Fury opt to stay in the NASL. As of right now, the investors would prefer to entice the NASL sides to join, rather than to force them.

Ottawa President John Pugh appeared to be open to a move without committing to one in a recent interview with the ATP 613 blog.

Edmonton has proven to be a much harder sell. There, owner Tom Fath is deeply involved in the NASL and is said to feel “unfair pressure” to abandon that league after the amount of effort and investment he’s put into it.

Clarifying previous CSN reports, the C-League would be fully professional and would aim to operate at a higher level than he USL. The MLS reserve teams would likely remain in USL.

The salary budget for each team would likely be between $1-m and $1.5-m Canadian. That would roughly work out to an average salary of between $40,000 and $60,000 Canadian. The USL average is around $20,000 USD and the NASL pays an average of about $40,000 USD.

Despite previous suggestions that the announcement may be fast forwarded, the investors have instead decided to slow the process down in an attempt to possibly convince both NASL sides to join. They are said to believe that they can wait as long as January 2016 to make the official announcement. 

I'm a bit late to the topic but I have a few comments.  Multiple sources reporting?  Haven't seen anyone say anything to anyone.

 

Flames rumoured to be involved?  Well, the Flames own the Stampeders, so essentially that's no different.

 

Second group in Ottawa if the Fury don't move?  Sure I guess it's possible, but I'd think that seems like a stretch to me.

 

What about the owners in the other cities?  Is the Toronto group the group that wanted NASL originally?  Where do they plan to play?  Similar questions for Mtl and Van.

 

Jason

[lazlo_80]

 

I think we are being cautious because since the last time we got here it has taken us 15 years to try and recover from the wreckage.

 

Totally understandable.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Nobody else is coming to the table.  I'd rather have an experience and successful non-soccer sports club do it as opposed to someone who loves soccer but has not idea what he's doing.  We know the 4 CFL clubs presumably involved (Cgy, Sask, Wpg, Ham) will be a reliable base for the league....

 

Do we really know that last bit for the other three beyond Hamilton when the Ottawa Fury president is saying he is unaware of any concrete interest? This CFL thing has dragged on for many years now and was originally supposed to be tied into possible stadium renovations tied into the 2015 Women's World Cup. I am skeptical that soccer would be viewed as a financial opportunity (how often do people with an ownership stake actually make money out of start-up pro soccer leagues in North America?) rather than a threat in CFL circles given what is happening to their broadcast numbers among younger age groups. The traditional posture in CFL and NFL circles has been to use access to a pro level stadium as a lever to bleed pro soccer dry until the franchise eventually folds. That's why soccer specific stadia became central to soccer's economic model at the D1 and D2 sort of level. 

[Grizzly]

I just don't understand how any Canadian soccer supporters could be against this. 

 

Any Canadian soccer supporter would be for a strong Canadian league with a high level of play, good attendance and financially stable teams. Just because something would be great in theory (while ignoring a lot of the real world realities) does not mean it will come to fruition. What Canadian soccer doesn't need is a poorly planned league that is divisive and with a poor business plan which seems to be what is under consideration here. We certainly don't need a league that will fold after a season or two. It seems like the most sensible option would be to put more teams in NASL (and there is surely a way to get around the foreign team quotas) and have established teams develop with fan bases and then if the MLS/NASL/USL system is still not working the way we like it to for us, to start a Canadian league with established, stable teams. 

 

And given that this seems to be a pie in the sky plan from a reporter with a long history of false, inaccurate information it is hard to see why this story is even causing this much debate here. We may as well discuss Lord Bob's plan for achieving world peace. What is that saying about when something seems too good to be true? And by too good to be true I mean the league we are dreaming of not the disaster in the making implied by the information Duane is feeding us. I mean unless the plan turned out to be a lot different than what he has "leaked" so far I can't even hope that for once he is right.

[Levi Oakey]

Hey, be quiet about Lord Bob's plan for world peace. I have it from multiple sources that it's legitimate and big names are looking it up.

[Michael Crampton]

Clearly, nothing has been worse for Canadian soccer than the Canadians who buy tickets to watch Canadian teams play soccer in Canada.

 

Those guys suck.

[BuzzAndSting]

Nobody else is coming to the table.  I'd rather have an experience and successful non-soccer sports club do it as opposed to someone who loves soccer but has not idea what he's doing.  We know the 4 CFL clubs presumably involved (Cgy, Sask, Wpg, Ham) will be a reliable base for the league.  The other clubs are unknown quantities at this point.  It's nice to have a bit of certainty.

 

Jason

 

Exactly. OSEG is made up of 3 real estate developers and a junior hockey/carpet cleaning guy. They brought in John Pugh who was running the Ottawa Fury but it's not like he had a ton of experience, he was a computer science prof.

[BuzzAndSting]

Do we really know that last bit for the other three beyond Hamilton when the Ottawa Fury president is saying he is unaware of any concrete interest? This CFL thing has dragged on for many years now and was originally supposed to be tied into possible stadium renovations tied into the 2015 Women's World Cup. I am skeptical that soccer would be viewed as a financial opportunity (how often do people with an ownership stake actually make money out of start-up pro soccer leagues in North America?) rather than a threat in CFL circles given what is happening to their broadcast numbers among younger age groups. The traditional posture in CFL and NFL circles has been to use access to a pro level stadium as a lever to bleed pro soccer dry until the franchise eventually folds. That's why soccer specific stadia became central to soccer's economic model at the D1 and D2 sort of level. 

 

Even if he did know, he wouldn't be giving an interview and saying "Yes, there's a group of people putting together a pro-league, they've asked us to join and we're considering it."

[lazlo_80]

Any Canadian soccer supporter would be for a strong Canadian league with a high level of play, good attendance and financially stable teams. Just because something would be great in theory (while ignoring a lot of the real world realities) does not mean it will come to fruition. What Canadian soccer doesn't need is a poorly planned league that is divisive and with a poor business plan which seems to be what is under consideration here. We certainly don't need a league that will fold after a season or two. It seems like the most sensible option would be to put more teams in NASL (and there is surely a way to get around the foreign team quotas) and have established teams develop with fan bases and then if the MLS/NASL/USL system is still not working the way we like it to for us, to start a Canadian league with established, stable teams. 

 

And given that this seems to be a pie in the sky plan from a reporter with a long history of false, inaccurate information it is hard to see why this story is even causing this much debate here. We may as well discuss Lord Bob's plan for achieving world peace. What is that saying about when something seems too good to be true? And by too good to be true I mean the league we are dreaming of not the disaster in the making implied by the information Duane is feeding us. I mean unless the plan turned out to be a lot different than what he has "leaked" so far I can't even hope that for once he is right.

 

Just curious, what gives you the impression this league has a "poor business plan"?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Even if he did know, he wouldn't be giving an interview and saying "Yes, there's a group of people putting together a pro-league, they've asked us to join and we're considering it."

 

Why not? If a new league had really been on the verge of launching as soon as 2016 as was recently being claimed, I think a team with strong CFL links like the Fury would have been actively discussing it with their fan base and corporate sponsors by now. A story this big is not the sort of thing that would normally only be reported by a solitary blogger, if there was any substance to it.

[BuzzAndSting]

Why not? If a new league had really been on the verge of launching as soon as 2016 as was recently being claimed, I think a team with strong CFL links like the Fury would have been actively discussing it with their fan base and corporate sponsors by now. A story this big is not the sort of thing that would normally only be reported by a solitary blogger, if there was any substance to it.

 

Why not? Because it's bad business. They have a team in the NASL and until they decide to commit to a new league they have to pretend that everything is rosy. If there was a league launching in 2016 I would suspect the Fury would announce a move closer to the end of the season. If the league is starting up in 2017 then I wouldn't expect an announcement from the Fury until Fall 2016. On top of that it's unlikely the Fury discuss any of this with their corporate sponsors because all of those deals are negotiated with OSEG based on a partnership with the RedBlacks, the association with the Fury is in addition to the CFL partnership and almost secondary. And in terms of discussions with fans about a potential change of league you must know next to nothing about the Fury fan base. I bet 80% of fans who attend Fury games couldn't even tell you what league the team plays in. Crowds are made up mostly of families with young kids and casual soccer fans looking for something different to do. It will make no difference to them if Ottawa is playing San Antonio, Indy or Hamilton.

[grande]

I'm just going to ignore this whole story until someone (literally anyone) other than Duane Rollins reports on it. Until then, I'm just going to assume this is Duane's Fantasy League.

[jpg75]

I'm just going to ignore this whole story until someone (literally anyone) other than Duane Rollins reports on it. Until then, I'm just going to assume this is Duane's Fantasy League.

I wish i could "like" this post.

[ted]

Just curious, what gives you the impression this league has a "poor business plan"?

 

The criticism is of the basic premise of the plan which appears to be (rumoured to be might be more accurate) a stand-alone league. Grizzly, and many others, are of the opinion that from a business perspecitve, working with the NASL would provide a better chance of long-term success.

 

 

 

I'm just going to ignore this whole story until someone (literally anyone) other than Duane Rollins reports on it. Until then, I'm just going to assume this is Duane's Fantasy League.

 

Yeah, I have been saying similar things for over a year now. It is getting to be pretty tiresome.  The longer this sits out there as a "rumour" the more crazy the speculation becomes.

 

FFS we are arguing over business plan that may or may not exist. We can make up anything and pretend like it is meaningful.

[lazlo_80]

The criticism is of the basic premise of the plan which appears to be (rumoured to be might be more accurate) a stand-alone league. Grizzly, and many others, are of the opinion that from a business perspecitve, working with the NASL would provide a better chance of long-term success.

 

 

Without seeing the business plan for the hypothetical, rumored, possibly-not-real Canadian league I could think of numerous reasons why working with the NASL would be a disasterous way to start this thing up. I certainly would not consider it a "poor business plan" simply because it's choosing to avoid that league. I'd argue going that route would be more detrimental.

 

Sorry, I thought there was something about their actual business plan he was referring to. I didn't realize that was the reasoning behind the comment.

[JamboAl]

I call BS on this story as well.  In fact, until I can be convinced of a solid business model, I'm sceptical about the long-term viability of an all-Canadian league because the finances do not make enough sense.  What would be the average attendance need to be to make any money on this league?  The Fury draw 4,000-5,000 a match and I would love to see their books cause they can't be making a mint; in fact, I'd be thrilled if they were breaking even. 

[ted]

Sorry, I thought there was something about their actual business plan he was referring to. I didn't realize that was the reasoning behind the comment.

 

If any plan actually exists the chances of any of us getting to see it anytime soon are slim to none.

 

 

I call BS on this story as well.  In fact, until I can be convinced of a solid business model, I'm sceptical about the long-term viability of an all-Canadian league because the finances do not make enough sense.  What would be the average attendance need to be to make any money on this league?  The Fury draw 4,000-5,000 a match and I would love to see their books cause they can't be making a mint; in fact, I'd be thrilled if they were breaking even. 

 

4,000 - 5,000 per match is enough to build a D2 league on and is attainable IMO either way - with the right marketing. The marketing plan and a league TV deal are the crucial factors for me from the business side.

 

[Macksam]

Even if he did know, he wouldn't be giving an interview and saying "Yes, there's a group of people putting together a pro-league, they've asked us to join and we're considering it."

No doubt. However, BBTB will conveniently leave that out as it does not support his passionate view point on the subject matter at hand.

[ThiKu]

No, no a thousand times no!!

Why in the name of all that is holy would you want to devalue the product so much? Why would you want to make potential sponsors, investors and fans think this is like a bunch of small children arunning around all day where every players gets a participant medal?

 

Play league games and make the V-Cup more like the FA or US Open Cup and we get plenty of good games. Gimmicks are not neccessary.

 

 

 

Are you daft  or.... ? 

 

They would be league games. They would just be in one location - 4 games, 2 days, all for league points. National team playing the feature match after the 4th game. People who bought tix for the C-League game would have entry to the national game, and can still have a V section.

 

Other leagues that play games in a "gimmick" fashion - NFL, NHL, MLB......EPL.

[-Hammer-]

Do we really know that last bit for the other three beyond Hamilton when the Ottawa Fury president is saying he is unaware of any concrete interest? This CFL thing has dragged on for many years now and was originally supposed to be tied into possible stadium renovations tied into the 2015 Women's World Cup. I am skeptical that soccer would be viewed as a financial opportunity (how often do people with an ownership stake actually make money out of start-up pro soccer leagues in North America?) rather than a threat in CFL circles given what is happening to their broadcast numbers among younger age groups. The traditional posture in CFL and NFL circles has been to use access to a pro level stadium as a lever to bleed pro soccer dry until the franchise eventually folds. That's why soccer specific stadia became central to soccer's economic model at the D1 and D2 sort of level. 

 

Except BC Place and in the near future, BMO Field kind of refute that. Also, here is really the thing, spending money and running the C-Leauge into the ground isn't going to do much to the existing MLS teams...so...even if for some bizarre reason, the CFL teams were setting up owners of a C-Leauge franchise to die a slow death, the net accomplishment would be to do what exactly? Poison markets that MLS has no interest in expanding into?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Why not? Because it's bad business. They have a team in the NASL and until they decide to commit to a new league they have to pretend that everything is rosy....Crowds are made up mostly of families with young kids and casual soccer fans looking for something different to do. It will make no difference to them if Ottawa is playing San Antonio, Indy or Hamilton.

 

Agree with the last bit as long as a new league was handled properly (a major caveat when startup pro soccer leagues are concerned) and had investors of comparable quality involved, so why the need to pretend anything and keep stuff secret (although not really given one blogger is being allowed to leak all the information), if ultimately it makes little difference either way and there is no obvious crisis with the way things are at the moment with the Fury sitting top of the standings ahead of the big-spending Cosmos and appearing to draw a very healthy attendance? If there was any genuine danger of a rival franchise emerging, if they stay where they are and the "C-League" emergies, I think they would be actively fostering the debate as to which way is the better route ahead and at the very least would be running focus groups to gauge how the fanbase would respond and that would almost certainly lead to rumours and stories in the Ottawa Citizen.

 

...so...even if for some bizarre reason, the CFL teams were setting up owners of a C-Leauge franchise to die a slow death....

 

Think you'll find that the original plan that was reported in the Globe and Mail rather than on a blog was more that the CFL owners would be the investors themselves, which would have happened by now, if it was ever going to. Beyond that in Vancouver, Greg Kerfoot was going to build an SSS, so had leverage to get reasonable terms, and in Toronto, soccer not the CFL is going to be the anchor tenant. Very different scenarios from a smaller market CFL team on the Prairies actively fostering pro soccer as a long term rival in popularity terms to their own sport when there is no obvious need for them to do so. That might happen in one city where like Ottawa there is a wider sports consortium involved, so I am willing to believe Calgary have kicked the tires a bit on the overall concept, but all four is a major stretch in credulity terms when at least some of the teams (I think this is correct, anyway?) are effectively owned by their fanbase.

[-Hammer-]

Think you'll find that the original plan that was reported in the Globe and Mail rather than on a blog was more that the CFL owners would be the investors themselves, which would have happened by now, if it was ever going to. Beyond that in Vancouver, Greg Kerfoot was going to build an SSS, so had leverage to get reasonable terms, and in Toronto, soccer not the CFL is going to be the anchor tenant. Very different scenarios from a smaller market CFL team on the Prairies actively fostering pro soccer as a long term rival in popularity terms to their own sport when there is no obvious need for them to do so. That might happen in one city where like Ottawa there is a wider sports consortium involved, so I am willing to believe Calgary have kicked the tires a bit on the overall concept, but all four is a major stretch in credulity terms when at least some of the teams (I think this is correct, anyway?) are effectively owned by their fanbase.

 

I don't think it would have happened now, by any stretch of the imagination. It's not a simply matter of a couple CFL owners getting together, dropping some money down and saying "Hey we have teams now, players come to us and start playing." Getting players, proper public communication between local soccer orgs, setting up a marketing plan, talking about a TV deal, getting the blessing of the CSA and provincial associations, possibly starting academies, dealing with NASL and MLS etc, all whilst running your current CFL team. This is another reason why I'm skeptical of Duane's reporting on this. Building an entire league is not an overnight proposition and given how many people you really need, I'm skeptical that no one would have leaked anything on this subject to any other media source.

 

As far as actively foster pro-soccer, the simple reason is why you just stated. The long-term rival. Better to get on the ground floor, keep it and build it myself then duke it out later with some other owner. Everyone sees how much youth enrollment there is in soccer, and everyone pretty much agrees more teams, regardless of how they get done, is what is needed for our national program to take the next step. The fact you also have more dates for your stadium and another team to cross promote under your corporate banner is why you do it.