BREAKING NEWS: C-League news and what cities will be involved

[ted]

It's time for a club to force the CSA's hand on USL sanctioning outside of the MLS clubs:

[snip]

It's time for the CSA to swallow their pride and stop hurting Canadian club soccer.

 

Good points all around.

 

And does anyone else find it sad/funny that we are discussing a thread started nearly two months ago which title begins with, "BREAKING NEWS" and yet we are still waiting for actual news?

[tmcmurph]

Hugely ironic and morbidly humorous. 

[Lord Bob]

Interesting how bad the attendances for the Canadian reserve teams were. And, of course, the Whitecaps couldn't even meet the Canadian player quota in several games. C-League now.

[shermanator]

If we are to argue that standalone Canadian USL clubs should be sanctioned, then I would further argue that WFC 2's sanctioning should be conditional for 2016, considering WFC 2 failed to meet the criteria of starting 6 Canadians on multiple occasions (one of these occasions they were granted an exception, but we don't know about the others),

 

I think sanctioning for 2016 should be on the condition that they meet the 6 Canadians criteria in every single game next year. Break that rule once, no sanctioning for 2017. Time to put up or shut up about what you are contributing to the development of Canadian soccer. 

 

Now, will this happen? Not a chance. But one can dream.

[Dub Narcotic]

@Lord Bob: Two of the teams didn't even have their own venues until halfway through the season (TFC2s still not being done) and the Impact don't seem to see FC Montreal as a commercial operation at this time. Whitecaps2 drew a respectable 1682 average per game and I don't see why they and Toronto 2 can't hit that number next year. Given a third of the roster at any time is on MLS contracts I think that number is within shouting distance of break-even. There's certainly no talk of folding the teams and there is at least one more full MLS affiliate club joining USL next year.

 

@shermanator: The exceptions are part of the rules the CSA gave the USL teams. If anything the CSA should get rid of the game-by-game rule and just go by starting spots and minutes at the end of the year. No need for these exceptions which, as you said, are hard to track.

[Lord Bob]

Having your own venue is not automatically an attendance incentive. By far the best-supported reserve team, the Salt Lake reserves, played at Rio Tinto.

The Whitecaps reserves gave away many tickets, steeply discounted others, promoted pretty hard, and wound up among the worst USL teams for attendace. Aside from Salt Lake all the reserve teams were below-average. Whoda guessed?

Did the Whitecaps reserves make money? No idea. Salaries aren't high. Is sponsorship good (because of the Whitecaps brand) or bad (because first-team sponsors take the prime spots)? No idea.

Certainly the Whitecaps reserves won't fod, unless the CSA pulls their sanctioning for repeated quota violations. But the Whitecaps have operated a reserve team for some years so no shock there.

[tmcmurph]

@shermanator: The exceptions are part of the rules the CSA gave the USL teams. If anything the CSA should get rid of the game-by-game rule and just go by starting spots and minutes at the end of the year. No need for these exceptions which, as you said, are hard to track.

 

That would be a better approach. Six starters for 90 minutes over 28 games is just over 15k minutes and was easily obtained by all 3 clubs this year despite injuries and call ups etc. I haven't done the minutes for MFC or TFC2 but the Caps were the lowest and even with the exceptions came in over 17k. It is also easier for the CSA and clubs to gradually increase the total minutes than starting spots.

 

Exceptions have no transparency which is a major reason they should go. We don't know how many were requested or why they were granted and the CSA doesn't return emails on the subject.

 

All in all a not a great start and all 3 teams need to make adjustments in various ways. MFC has made some and their results improved.  The Caps have added several more Canadian players. Next year will be interesting.

[shermanator]

Using a "team must dedicate X minutes to Canadians" is actually an interesting way to look at it. I would be in favour of that. Of course, if a club is short at the end of the year, what happens?

[Bully]

Using a "team must dedicate X minutes to Canadians" is actually an interesting way to look at it. I would be in favour of that. Of course, if a club is short at the end of the year, what happens?

They receive Kyle Bekker

[madmonte]

Kyle Bekker pass it on, pass it on, pass it on

Kyle Bekker pass it on

Get Rid of Kyle Bekker

 

(it's funnier if you picture a bunch of football managers at a table doing it for real)

[tmcmurph]

You guys are just plain nasty 

He's actually playing decent for Montreal at the MLS level right now.

[madmonte]

You guys are just plain nasty 

He's actually playing decent for Montreal at the MLS level right now.

Yep just finished praising his game in the Bekker thread before I read this.

[masster]

It's time for a club to force the CSA's hand on USL sanctioning outside of the MLS clubs:

 

* The regional leagues are fine but they are clearly not D3 despite how many reports the CSA writes. We already see that the biggest use for L10/PLSQ is to get players scouted by the MLS clubs for their USL teams (Raheem Edwards, Johnny Grant and Emery Welshman kind of) and as a PDL replacement for Sigma guys like Cyle Larin, Jay Chapman and Emeka Ononye who are going the NCAA/draft route. They are playing an important role but they are D4 leagues and that is fine. 

 

* The "Rollins League" is nowhere. What are the odds of this happening in 2017? 5-1, 6-1? The national team can't give away its television rights but TSN or Sportsnet are going to throw millions of dollars at an unproven league when MLS doesn't even make money for them? In any case, any such league would be much more successful integrating already established club teams in the future (a point that's been made here a million times) and USL interest exists in markets like Victoria that aren't mentioned as Canadian league possibilities in any case.

 

* The USL teams have been a huge success. First of all, they exist, and will exist next year! Second, there were probably more Canadian minutes this year on these teams than in the whole of MLS/NASL since 2011 (e.g the modern Canadian club era).  85%+ of the U-20 and U-23 teams are USL players this year after only one year of existence.

 

The next step is either for a ownership group, probably Victoria, London or Calgary to get a bid together, or for the CSA to lift their blanket prohibition on new teams in this league to remove uncertainty for the bid groups. Canada has already lost thousands of Canadian pro-minutes because of the inability for interested groups in Victoria or London to get their teams into USL. It's time for the CSA to swallow their pride and stop hurting Canadian club soccer.

What is the basis for this? Can somebody point me to the reports of Victoria actually wanting to move up to USL and not just the speculation on this board? If they couldn't make a go at the PDL level, what makes you think they would want to lose more money in USL?

[Dub Narcotic]

There was an interview with the Highlanders owner at the time that he dissolved the club that that lack of pathway to USL was one of the reasons he did not want to continue as owner. It was well discussed at the time, google is your friend for finding the exact interview.

[-Hammer-]

There are three reasons I don't feel the CSA should be supporting the USL or sanctioning teams to play there.
 

As a Canadian, I don't want to see our national system tied to the US National system and their teams. The US is our direct competitor in soccer and development in a league where low end US development is the priority, is not something I want to see. I also want my country's sanctioning organization and building infrastructure beyond teams, but also in local officials, refs, possible new owners and the like

As a Soccer Fan, I'm not remotely impressed by the development level that is happening at the USL. It's basically a place for MLS to lock up rights to players and send them down their to rot, vs playing meaningful minutes on an NASL squad or a potential new C-League, and tying ourselves to it, is going to leave us with another soccer expansion dead end, much like MLS

and last, as a Hamiltonian, having been the butt end of a successful attempt by MLSE to scuttle our chances of getting an NHL team (back in the Ottawa expansion) and the more recent unsuccessful attempt to scuttle a new Soccer franchise that could potentially compete with TFC, I don't favor supporting a league the gives MLSE a chance to flex it's muscle and potentially screw sports in my city again.

[ray]

There are three reasons I don't feel the CSA should be supporting the USL or sanctioning teams to play there.
 

As a Canadian, I don't want to see our national system tied to the US National system and their teams. The US is our direct competitor in soccer and development in a league where low end US development is the priority, is not something I want to see. I also want my country's sanctioning organization and building infrastructure beyond teams, but also in local officials, refs, possible new owners and the like

As a Soccer Fan, I'm not remotely impressed by the development level that is happening at the USL. It's basically a place for MLS to lock up rights to players and send them down their to rot, vs playing meaningful minutes on an NASL squad or a potential new C-League, and tying ourselves to it, is going to leave us with another soccer expansion dead end, much like MLS

I agree and prefer the NASL (or Canadian division within NASL) route.  However, if the USL Pro barrier to entry is lower than NASL in terms of franchise fee and (USSF Division 2) salary requirements, I might be persuaded that teams other the the MLS academies should be allowed to join.  It might help more young players get minutes.  I would at least keep an open mind about it.

That said, :

1) The CSA must set some standards for Canadian content and enforce this for NASL and USL Pro.

2) If USL Pro is looking to move up to the USSF D2 standard, I would think any attraction due to lower payroll disappears.

3) In the longer term I don't know why any prospective Canadian franchise owner would want to associate with USL Pro.  Playing the development teams of MLS clubs is nothing to aspire to.

[-Hammer-]

I agree and prefer the NASL (or Canadian division within NASL) route.  However, if the USL Pro barrier to entry is lower than NASL in terms of franchise fee and (USSF Division 2) salary requirements, I might be persuaded that teams other the the MLS academies should be allowed to join.  It might help more young players get minutes.  I would at least keep an open mind about it.

That said, :

1) The CSA must set some standards for Canadian content and enforce this for NASL and USL Pro.

2) If USL Pro is looking to move up to the USSF D2 standard, I would think any attraction due to lower payroll disappears.

3) In the longer term I don't know why any prospective Canadian franchise owner would want to associate with USL Pro.  Playing the development teams of MLS clubs is nothing to aspire to.

To that I reply

1) I agree, but because they aren't sanctioned by the CSA, the only sway they hold is to bar teams or their affiliates from the Canadian championship (which is even more meaningless for the USL teams) or to ask the USSF politely to enforce such a rule, which they are under zero obligation to even humor.

2) Perhaps, but I think if US Pro becomes the D2 standard, I think that does not bode well at all for second division soccer for the short term (as a large swath of lower quality players are still in the league) and awful for Canadian development in the long run. The USL basically becomes the AHL of MLS without any Canadian quota requirements.

3) The only reason is the cost of entry being cheap and because there are literally no other options. If NASL hits Canadian capacity again or even keeps kicking after the scandal, and with MLS having hit the ceiling, what other options can you pursue for a pro soccer, barring starting your own league.

[ted]

There are three reasons I don't feel the CSA should be supporting the USL or sanctioning teams to play there.

As a Canadian, I don't want to see our national system tied to the US National system and their teams. The US is our direct competitor in soccer and development in a league where low end US development is the priority, is not something I want to see. I also want my country's sanctioning organization and building infrastructure beyond teams, but also in local officials, refs, possible new owners and the like

Actually two points so:

a -  I do not understand this complaint of being "tied to the US National system". We have to play the US in international competitions on a regular basis and beat them. Why is playing against "their" teams bad?  Further, this has little to no effect on the youth development (where basics are learned and foundational concepts established). Youth development in Canada will still be guided by the CSA (not that that is anything to get excited about in the last 20 years but it's what you want.)

b - infrastructure like local officials, refs etc will have to built no matter what. This is not changed if the teams we play against are Canadian or American.

 

As a Soccer Fan, I'm not remotely impressed by the development level that is happening at the USL. It's basically a place for MLS to lock up rights to players and send them down their to rot, vs playing meaningful minutes on an NASL squad or a potential new C-League, and tying ourselves to it, is going to leave us with another soccer expansion dead end, much like MLS

MLS reserve players are never going to play on NASL teams so this makes no sense. There is a need for MLS reserve teams. We need more teams that pay players to train and play games.

The real problem is that the USL needs to allow independent teams unaffiliated with MLS clubs to create a more open market.

 

and last, as a Hamiltonian, having been the butt end of a successful attempt by MLSE to scuttle our chances of getting an NHL team (back in the Ottawa expansion) and the more recent unsuccessful attempt to scuttle a new Soccer franchise that could potentially compete with TFC, I don't favor supporting a league the gives MLSE a chance to flex it's muscle and potentially screw sports in my city again.

So you would not have a problem with USL if MLSE was not able to claim territorial rights to Hamilton? Thing is, do they have any such control over possible clubs in Hamilton and if they did could the CSA not insist on these being removed if MLSE wants to continue to be sanctioned?

 

[-Hammer-]

 

Actually two points so:

a -  I do not understand this complaint of being "tied to the US National system". We have to play the US in international competitions on a regular basis and beat them. Why is playing against "their" teams bad?  Further, this has little to no effect on the youth development (where basics are learned and foundational concepts established). Youth development in Canada will still be guided by the CSA (not that that is anything to get excited about in the last 20 years but it's what you want.)

b - infrastructure like local officials, refs etc will have to built no matter what. This is not changed if the teams we play against are Canadian or American.

 

MLS reserve players are never going to play on NASL teams so this makes no sense. There is a need for MLS reserve teams. We need more teams that pay players to train and play games.

The real problem is that the USL needs to allow independent teams unaffiliated with MLS clubs to create a more open market.

 

So you would not have a problem with USL if MLSE was not able to claim territorial rights to Hamilton? Thing is, do they have any such control over possible clubs in Hamilton and if they did could the CSA not insist on these being removed if MLSE wants to continue to be sanctioned?

 

To point 1

A ) Because fundamentally the purpose of their league is to develop US players. This means, at any time they can start imposing US player or team requirements (like they have for the NASL and MLS) and because

B ) Fundamentally though, the emphasis is once again towards the US. US league officials, head offices based in the US and likely due to the former occurring effect this point.

To Point 2

If they were actually generating Canadian players to potentially play in the MLS, that would be great, and if it were actually paying players sure. The problem though is there is a joke of a Canadian player requirement for MLS teams, and thus they aren't and given MLS's minimum salary is $35,000, I doubt the reserves are making even half that. I will agree though with the later point. If MLS teams want to hoard talent and let it rot, they should be doing it in their own reserve league and not reaping any potential financial benefit than a lower league might provide.

To Point 3

I would have less of a problem with it, the problem is that MLSE can and will, even if there is no official policy and tried earlier a mere few months back. I have little doubt they would hold enough sway to prevent Hamilton fro getting a team, but more importantly, their presence alone in the USL makes Hamilton being in their unviable. You won't sell Hamiltonians, or most markets on teams that play vs MLS farm teams. It epitomizes bush league. It's not enough to have players playing the game, teams have to become financially viable.

As far as the CSA is concerned, yes they could IF the CSA sanctioned USL which as you know is sanctioned by the USSF. The only three means the CSA has of enforcing its will on a team playing in a USSF sanctioned league is stonewalling the teams that particular owner has from playing in the Canadian Championship (which is one of the few money makers the CSA has), asking the team itself to do what it says or asking the USSF to back them up, which they don't have to do. The USSF could nix any such territory rights claims, but they have literally no reason to do so. They aren't looking to expand the Canadian presence of the USSF, they are far more interested in keeping USL Pro ownership happy, so why the heck would they care about a Hamilton team trying to move into TFC2's market. This is the kind of thing that I'm talking about when I say that we need our own league to control our own destiny. The CSA is hamstrung enough by the provincial associations and lack of finances. The fact it can't even regulate Canadian soccer teams, is yet another disgrace our national association continues to suffer.

[masster]

There was an interview with the Highlanders owner at the time that he dissolved the club that that lack of pathway to USL was one of the reasons he did not want to continue as owner. It was well discussed at the time, google is your friend for finding the exact interview.

My recollection is that Alex Campbell initially talked about wanting to move to a higher level. Then eventually he spread himself thin with the youth programs and women's team and decided to throw in the towel because of the overall losses, not because he was 'blocked' from moving to a higher level. I think that was speculation.

Here are articles where moves to other divisions were mentioned:
http://www.whitecapsfc.com/post/2009/03/18/highlanders-may-look-jump-fill-caps-vacant-spot-times-colonist
http://www.timescolonist.com/life/islander/highlanders-ride-soccer-s-growing-tide-in-north-america-1.1020290

Here are articles on the team folding with no mention of lack of progression opportunities:
http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/soccer/victoria-highlanders-cease-operations-1.1749176
http://www.saanichnews.com/sports/290668501.html
http://www.goal.com/en-ca/news/4172/canada/2015/02/02/8523582/victoria-highlanders-fc-folds-after-six-seasons

And an article on their rebirth:
http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/highlanders-are-back-but-in-pacific-coast-soccer-league-1.1812072

If google is failing me in finding this supposed interview, please help.

[ted]

^ Alex made it very clear that without a move "upwards" he could not keep going. Some of that clarity was provided in private conversations.

[Dub Narcotic]

Steve Sandor interview today on CSN made it pretty clear that FC Edmonton under Fath won't be in the Canadian League.

Kudos to Duane Rollins and Kevin Laramee, BTW, even though I don't agree with a lot of their editorial stances they have really become the news source of record for Canadian soccer.

[masster]

^ Alex made it very clear that without a move "upwards" he could not keep going. Some of that clarity was provided in private conversations.

Very well. Easy excuse though if you ask me. If he couldn't sustain the losses at PDL, it only would have been worse at a higher level.

[ted]

Very well. Easy excuse though if you ask me. If he couldn't sustain the losses at PDL, it only would have been worse at a higher level.

Wow you have no clue what it takes to finance a professional team do you? 

Moving to a higher level would have increased the number of tickets sold per game, increased the number of home games per season, allowed for ticket price increases and would have meant much higher sponsorship dollars. All of this would have been done in partnership with other investors who were ready to come aboard and share the initial losses required for such a move.

 

[masster]

Wow you have no clue what it takes to finance a professional team do you? 

Moving to a higher level would have increased the number of tickets sold per game, increased the number of home games per season, allowed for ticket price increases and would have meant much higher sponsorship dollars. All of this would have been done in partnership with other investors who were ready to come aboard and share the initial losses required for such a move.

 

I do not believe those additional revenues would have been significant enough to offset the additional costs of a fully pro roster, increased travel expenses, larger coaching and technical staff, front office operations, etc.

Please do not insult me. We are both assuming the impact a higher level of soccer would have had in the Victoria market. Your projections are more optimistic than mine. So be it.

If he REALLY wanted to go to a higher level, he could have done so in NASL, or asked the CSA for a USL exemption with the promise to move to a domestic league when one is established. If you have any news on this, I would love to hear it.