CPL 2023 Season Attendance

[Watchmen]

15 minutes ago, jonovision said:

If Ticketmaster is withholding blocks of seats with only singles currently available, that is near-criminal malpractice. They're evil, but not dumb. Expect a sell-out of close to it. 

I would assume that would be a club decision, not a Ticketmaster one (if it was happening). Not making tickets available for sale seems like it would leave Ticketmaster open to a lawsuit if it was their decision.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Watchmen

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I would assume that would be a club decision, not a Ticketmaster one (if it was happening). Not making tickets available for sale seems like it would leave Ticketmaster open to a lawsuit if it was their decision.

A lot of things Ticketmaster does seems like it would leave them open to a lawsuit, but here we are.

[Watchmen]

11 minutes ago, Kent said:

A lot of things Ticketmaster does seems like it would leave them open to a lawsuit, but here we are.

I mean, they have lost some class action lawsuits...

But, I don't see what benefit there would be to Ticketmaster here on not posting all available tickets unless it's at the direction of the club. And I'm not accusing the club of doing that either.

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I mean, they have lost some class action lawsuits...

But, I don't see what benefit there would be to Ticketmaster here on not posting all available tickets unless it's at the direction of the club. And I'm not accusing the club of doing that either.

They constantly do this, but to be fair I don't know for sure if it's clubs that ask them to do it or not. Better buy your tickets because they are getting sold fast! Then you buy your tickets and oh look at that, there are some new ones available. I guess they miscounted how many seats the stadium has.

[narduch]

 

 

[Kingston]

Great attendances (except, obviously, for York).  Very happy to see that for the home openers.

Any idea where those numbers come from given that the league's website doesn't show any attendances yet?

[Aird25]

9 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Great attendances (except, obviously, for York).  Very happy to see that for the home openers.

Any idea where those numbers come from given that the league's website doesn't show any attendances yet?

For Pacific, that's what they announced in the stadium before kickoff. They may have sold some walk ups afterwards, but it would have been for general seating as there were no seats left other than in the visitor sections

[SoccMan]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

Great attendances (except, obviously, for York).  Very happy to see that for the home openers.

Any idea where those numbers come from given that the league's website doesn't show any attendances yet?

The way things are going I can’t see York making it much longer unfortunately, how I hope things would change. Let’s hope the owner is able to take the losses and write most of them off somehow , but I’m not an accountant so don’t really know how things like that work . However, I still think  off the field things have not been done properly and off the field  too. I think there is potential there to get to at least the 4000 to 5000 mark in attendance but not with the way this organization is presently run.

[narduch]

 

 

[Kingston]

12 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

The way things are going I can’t see York making it much longer unfortunately, how I hope things would change. Let’s hope the owner is able to take the losses and write most of them off somehow , but I’m not an accountant so don’t really know how things like that work . However, I still think  off the field things have not been done properly and off the field  too. I think there is potential there to get to at least the 4000 to 5000 mark in attendance but not with the way this organization is presently run.

As a summary of a whole bunch of snippets of information, back of the envelope math, and so on, it probably costs about $5 million per year to run a CPL team.  There are certainly people out there who are wealthy enough to absorb that whole cost with no revenue at all, but those sorts of people didn't generally get where they are by running businesses that way.  Even if someone was willing to do that with York, I'd strongly prefer a league with teams that can stand on their own and won't disappear as soon as someone gets tired of their toy.

Personally, I don't see even a well run team drawing 5000 in Toronto because the market simply isn't kind to sports teams that are perceived as second best.  I'd also be fine if York proved me wrong.

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

The way things are going I can’t see York making it much longer unfortunately, how I hope things would change. Let’s hope the owner is able to take the losses and write most of them off somehow , but I’m not an accountant so don’t really know how things like that work . However, I still think  off the field things have not been done properly and off the field  too. I think there is potential there to get to at least the 4000 to 5000 mark in attendance but not with the way this organization is presently run.

 

8 minutes ago, Kingston said:

As a summary of a whole bunch of snippets of information, back of the envelope math, and so on, it probably costs about $5 million per year to run a CPL team.  There are certainly people out there who are wealthy enough to absorb that whole cost with no revenue at all, but those sorts of people didn't generally get where they are by running businesses that way.  Even if someone was willing to do that with York, I'd strongly prefer a league with teams that can stand on their own and won't disappear as soon as someone gets tired of their toy.

Personally, I don't see even a well run team drawing 5000 in Toronto because the market simply isn't kind to sports teams that are perceived as second best.  I'd also be fine if York proved me wrong.

How the club will be doing once they move to Woodbine will be a more accurate picture on what their future will look like.

[jonovision]

28 minutes ago, narduch said:

 

 

Either the CPL can't math, or they're making up figures. There's two ways to compare opening weekend 2023 to 2022. One is to compare with the home opening crowds in 2022 for the 4 teams who hosted this weekend. The other is to compare simply with the teams who hosted on opening weekend in 2022 (York, Ottawa, Pacific, Edmonton). The first, more accurate way gives an increase of 49% (13700 to 20363). The latter gives an increase of 91% (10682 to 20363) which isn't surprising since both York and Edmonton hosted on opening weekend in 2022.

The only way of coming up with a 67% figure with last year's number is that using method #1, 13700 in 2022 is 67% of 20363 in 2023, which as you all know is not an increase of 67%. 

A nice bump to be sure. Just sloppy.

Edited April 17, 2023 by jonovision

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

39 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

The way things are going I can’t see York making it much longer unfortunately, how I hope things would change. Let’s hope the owner is able to take the losses and write most of them off somehow , but I’m not an accountant so don’t really know how things like that work . However, I still think  off the field things have not been done properly and off the field  too. I think there is potential there to get to at least the 4000 to 5000 mark in attendance but not with the way this organization is presently run.

The scary thing about York is that that even with an announced number of 1600 they are probably inflating their stats by a significantly larger percentage than the Forge, who do legitimately have a significant sized support at this point that is a big step forward from what happened with the Steelers back in the day. The idea that the 3000 seat main stand at York Lions was around half full yesterday appears laughable from what was visible in the Onesoccer stream. What happens to Greenpark Homes' interest in bleeding what must be low seven figures on red ink annually if Woodbine doesn't happen is the obvious question mark.

As was also true with the CSL (and has even been an issue with the CFL at times), the problem with a domestic pro league with only 8 clubs is that one of the weak links folding can cause an existential crisis for clubs elsewhere that are doing reasonably OK. Pacific's capacity crowd was a legit case of the seats being filled and doesn't appear (AFAIA anyway) to have had any Ottawa style ticket promotion linked to it, but the whole structure is on thin ice given what's happening with York and the Valour. Hopefully Pacific can keep that sort of  interest going and it isn't like 2019 there when they got good crowds for games where they had a few weeks lead time to promote it that fell away whenever games arrived in quick succession.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[narduch]

13 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

How the club will be doing once they move to Woodbine will be a more accurate picture on what their future will look like.

The Woodbine plan doesn't seem to be going anywhere. 

There has been no news on it.

[Ansem]

11 minutes ago, narduch said:

The Woodbine plan doesn't seem to be going anywhere. 

There has been no news on it.

It's ongoing according to McNab, he said so on podcasts and online. I haven't heard of anything to the contrary yet

[Aird25]

41 minutes ago, Kingston said:

As a summary of a whole bunch of snippets of information, back of the envelope math, and so on, it probably costs about $5 million per year to run a CPL team.  There are certainly people out there who are wealthy enough to absorb that whole cost with no revenue at all, but those sorts of people didn't generally get where they are by running businesses that way.

Not to be too cynical, but don't a lot of people run sports teams specifically so that they can record losses for tax purposes?

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Not to be too cynical, but don't a lot of people run sports teams specifically so that they can record losses for tax purposes?

I think this is more an urban legend.

Most teams are ok losing money as long as the franchise value keeps increasing. 

York is owned by a billionaire home developer that is set to get even richer thanks to our corrupt provincial government. 

Whether he is ok continually losing millions each year is another story.

[Kingston]

20 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Not to be too cynical, but don't a lot of people run sports teams specifically so that they can record losses for tax purposes?

I don't know; I don't run in those circles.

I have heard of franchises where the team, the stadium, the operating company, and the concessions company (for example) are all run as separate corporations by the same owner.  This way, the team can (on paper) lose money to offset profits from the other branches.  But I doubt they want to actually lose money overall and I doubt that York overall is making any profit.

I suppose they could still accept short term losses if they thought the long term value was there but, still, I'd prefer a league with teams that don't need sugar daddy owners.

[Ansem]

35 minutes ago, narduch said:

Whether he is ok continually losing millions each year is another story.

He wouldn't be starting an academy if he was tired of losing money.

 

16 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I have heard of franchises where the team, the stadium, the operating company, and the concessions company (for example) are all run as separate corporations by the same owner.  This way, the team can (on paper) lose money to offset profits from the other branches.  But I doubt they want to actually lose money overall and I doubt that York overall is making any profit.

I suppose they could still accept short term losses if they thought the long term value was there but, still, I'd prefer a league with teams that don't need sugar daddy owners.

If losing money this early on in this league is a surprise to any of them, then I question their business acumen to begin with. Owners knew they'd be losing money this early in the league's existence and for the foreseeable future in exchange for a positive ROI down the road. The CSB deal allows them to reinvest the marketing revenues into the league to raise its overall value which is critical to get a ROI - that's how most business actually work. As long as they see the overall value rising, they'll accept losing money as long as it isn't critical - which it doesn't look like it is.

FC Edmonton carrying years of NASL debt combined with an atrocious stadium deal sank were the big reason they went under.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Ansem

[Kingston]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

If losing money this early on in this league is a surprise to any of them, then I question their business acumen to begin with.

This is definitely true.

As fans, though, I think it is fair to want more Halifaxes, be happy to see teams like Ottawa heading upward, and be legitimately concerned about a team that still draws one thousand and some per game.

[Aird25]

If Pacific have chosen to cap attendance this season at 5k, how sure are we that 5k is the minimum teams need to turn a profit? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me

[Soccerpro2]

Why does the York team exist? Is the owner a super rich soccer fan? Does he have an interest in lighting money on fire every season?

Everyone focused on Edmonton before but with the Eddies folding, can we acknowledge that York is an absolute farce? Drawing 1k fans 5 years in? Are they even trying to draw fans? 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Soccerpro2

[Kingston]

4 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

If Pacific have chosen to cap attendance this season at 5k, how sure are we that 5k is the minimum teams need to turn a profit? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me

When the league was starting up, there were comments from different officials giving break even attendance numbers of anywhere from 5000 to 7000.

Having followed soccer in Canada and the US for decades, it's a pretty good rule of thumb that teams that draw below 5000 don't tend to last.  (At least not if they are in nation-travel type leagues.)

So it isn't a magic number but it's a pretty reasonable target.

The only times Pacific has drawn 5000 for a league game were their first ever (5100) and last night (technically more like 4800 but sold out).  So capping it at 5000 doesn't really limit them.  And if capping it gives a perception of ticket scarcity and they start to sell out regularly, I'm sure they'll be able to adjust.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Kingston said:

This is definitely true.

As fans, though, I think it is fair to want more Halifaxes, be happy to see teams like Ottawa heading upward, and be legitimately concerned about a team that still draws one thousand and some per game.

That's why the league said from the get go that they were building a league for the future. It will take time and in some markets, more of it will be needed. What matters more is sustainable growth. This is the second "normal" season - this will be a great way to have an accurate picture.

As for York United, Woodbine will do them a ton of good as the location has pretty much everything they need to succeed.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

Why does the York team exist? Is the owner a super rich soccer fan? Does he have an interest in lighting money on fire every season?

Very wealthy and he's serious about the club

 

3 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

Everyone focused on Edmonton before but with the Eddies folding, can we acknowledge that York is an absolute farce? Drawing 1k fans 5 years in? Are they even trying to draw fans? 

FC Edmonton was carrying years of NASL debt while being stuck in a stadium deal with the city making it impossible to be viable + owners who's commitment to CPL's vision is debatable. York made obvious mistakes in their branding (yes York9 was a bad idea) and how it was ran overall.

The owner cleaned house by firing the president of the club and other senior staff after the 1st season, made new hires, rebranded and started to work on a new stadium for the club. 

Both clubs had drastic responses, hence why I want to see what they do at Woodbine.