Moise Bombito

[narduch]

48 minutes ago, Corazon said:

Which is strange given Herdman was told that was Colorado's long term plan for him (still may be) but he's played almost every position except CDM for them.

It's possible Herdman was lying.

[Bigandy]

Just now, narduch said:

It's possible Herdman was lying.

I think its more likely a long term play. A guy like Ramos played RB alot but was long term going to be a CB. Theres plenty of examples where young/inexpereinced players spend a couple years at one position until they develop into their long term position. In fairness, he made his pro debut like 3 months ago. 

[Corazon]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think its more likely a long term play. A guy like Ramos played RB alot but was long term going to be a CB. Theres plenty of examples where young/inexpereinced players spend a couple years at one position until they develop into their long term position. In fairness, he made his pro debut like 3 months ago. 

The next John Stones?  CB to CDM.  Both Ramos and Pepe also played some CDM for Madrid back in the day.  The natural progression from outside back to CB was very common back in the day (Maldini, Ramos etc.)  I remember reading Maldini state that Ramos was his heir and that he would become one of the greatest defenders all time after he switched from RB to CB.  And he was right. Today's modern game is a bit different as outside backs are much quicker and much more attacking.

 

[Bigandy]

On 9/1/2023 at 3:21 PM, Corazon said:

The next John Stones?  CB to CDM.  Both Ramos and Pepe also played some CDM for Madrid back in the day.  The natural progression from outside back to CB was very common back in the day (Maldini, Ramos etc.)  I remember reading Maldini state that Ramos was his heir and that he would become one of the greatest defenders all time after he switched from RB to CB.  And he was right. Today's modern game is a bit different as outside backs are much quicker and much more attacking.

 

John Stones isnt quite a CDM. Just a hybrid CB. Idk if Moise has the IQ for that role. 
Guys like alaba, Dier, Kompany, fernandihno, mascherano, martinez, fabihno have all played both CDM and CB roles. 

Alot of people think its blasphemy for bombito to play cdm but with a lack of depth, its not a bad idea to try and find a guy who can fulfill that role.  As awful as it sounds, sometimes a worse player has attributes that make them more valuable than a better player.... bombito vs loturi. 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Alot of people think its blasphemy for bombito to play cdm but with a lack of depth, its not a bad idea to try and find a guy who can fulfill that role.  As awful as it sounds, sometimes a worse player has attributes that make them more valuable than a better player.... bombito vs loturi. 

I question how many people actually feel like this. For me it wasn't that he was playing CDM, it was that he continued to play CDM when he was giving away the ball cheaply. I didn't like seeing that thinking in terms of the team's results on the field. 

Probably these cheap turnovers were magnified because he isn't a midfielder. And again, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't point out he had a very good game against the states.

Overall I think I am in the camp of welcoming Bombito as a midfield option, but not okay with him getting an abundance of chances due to his upside. Or more precisely, these chances should come in friendlies, not in competitive fixtures. This goes for anyone, actually. It's not just a Bombito thing.

 

[Bigandy]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I question how many people actually feel like this. For me it wasn't that he was playing CDM, it was that he continued to play CDM when he was giving away the ball cheaply. I didn't like seeing that thinking in terms of the team's results on the field. 

Probably these cheap turnovers were magnified because he isn't a midfielder. And again, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't point out he had a very good game against the states.

Overall I think I am in the camp of welcoming Bombito as a midfield option, but not okay with him getting an abundance of chances due to his upside. Or more precisely, these chances should come in friendlies, not in competitive fixtures. This goes for anyone, actually. It's not just a Bombito thing.

 

He played 65ish minutes on his debut at CDM. He wasnt terrible against guadeloupe. Surely theres some grace on a players debut when hes not horrible. He had 82% pass completion in this game. KDB had an average of 78% last year. (obviously not apples to apples). 

Then he played RCB against guatemala in the first half and was decent at cdm. 

Then against cuba he was subbed after 30ish minutes when he was clearly struggling.

Im not sure I agree that he "continued" to play CDM when he gave the ball away cheaply. The only game he was obviously struggling to retain possession as a CDM resulted in a sub after 30 minutes.  The other games seem to have his performance blown out of proportion. 

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

And again, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't point out he had a very good game against the states.

I didn't grade his performance in the same way.  From post on the match thread:

I re-watched and charted his 60+ minutes of play and I would say that his play on the ball was fairly limited.  Ten passes (one forward pass giveaway) most of them pretty basic fare, two crosses.  He reminded me of Kevin Harmse as a midfielder for Canada and TFC with the limited involvement in the passing side of the game. 

Defensively, he lost two out of three 50/50s duels and as you noted got bypassed a number of times.  His best play was closing down the cross by Zendejas on the left.

Otherwise, not really a factor nor a presence out there.  Even last night, where his performance there was viewed by some as his best of the three starts there, you can see his lack of feel for the position (not moving into better pass reception positions to provide an outlet, not shielding after he had a nice forward run on the dribble, losing possession, then drawing a foul in trying to get it back).  He's going to have to play this spot a lot at club level a lot to get that feel.

However, I looked at his online metrics after my re-watching and for his 60 minutes he was rated better than Fraser for his final 60 minutes as his replacement, fwiw. 

[BearcatSA]

Floro used Adam Straith as a d-mid at the Gold Cup where he was used as a road block in front of the central defence pairing

 

[Aird25]

Surely we have enough depth at CDM that we don’t need to call a depth piece from the worst team in MLS and play him out of position. Colorado has a grand total of 1 point from the 9 matches he’s appeared in, being out scored 19-5. Admittedly, I’ve hardly seen him play, but that doesn’t seem great

[Bigandy]

8 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Surely we have enough depth at CDM that we don’t need to call a depth piece from the worst team in MLS and play him out of position. Colorado has a grand total of 1 point from the 9 matches he’s appeared in, being out scored 19-5. Admittedly, I’ve hardly seen him play, but that doesn’t seem great

Who else is there at DM (for a GC squad)? 
Fraser, Loturi......?  (piette and choiniere were injured during the match days, even though choiniere wasnt originally called) 
Priso? whos also on the worst team? Kaye? 

Bombito is being recommended to besiktas by atiba. Theres a higher ceiling than his current form where hes just started his pro career. Theres a very realistic chance that he can become our starting (or at least interal squad member) DM and/or CB for years to come. Im not sure we can say the same chance about priso, fraser, kaye, loturi, Paton, Okello. 

[Aird25]

37 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Who else is there at DM (for a GC squad)? 
Fraser, Loturi......?  (piette and choiniere were injured during the match days, even though choiniere wasnt originally called) 
Priso? whos also on the worst team? Kaye? 

Bombito is being recommended to besiktas by atiba. Theres a higher ceiling than his current form where hes just started his pro career. Theres a very realistic chance that he can become our starting (or at least interal squad member) DM and/or CB for years to come. Im not sure we can say the same chance about priso, fraser, kaye, loturi, Paton, Okello. 

Sure, a bunch of those guys, as well as Kone, Eustaquio, Sigur, Arfield, Teibert, Saliba, Froese, Hojabrpour, Sean Young, Alghamdi etc etc. He might surpass some, or all of them, but I’m not at all convinced he has yet. I hope he does in the future though

[Bigandy]

11 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Sure, a bunch of those guys, as well as Kone, Eustaquio, Sigur, Arfield, Teibert, Saliba, Froese, Hojabrpour, Sean Young, Alghamdi etc etc. He might surpass some, or all of them, but I’m not at all convinced he has yet. I hope he does in the future though

Kone and staq dropped out of the GC. Sigur is non committed and playing RB (is there anything to suggest hes a 6 and not an 8). Arfield is retired. Alghamadi is likely committed to SA.

I wouldnt go back to tiebert. Hes not going to get any better and hes not currently good enough for CMNT, may as well look at potential. 

Froese has been playing further forward and isnt a 6. 

Saliba is an interesting shout. is he a proper DM though? I wouldve loved to see him at the GC. 

The rest are CPL guys who are not clearly ahead of bombito. They should make the step up to MLS if they are truly CMNT quality. Sure theres an argument to be made but bombito is projected to have a high ceiling. Why ignore that in favour of a CPL player whos arguably not as good as bombito?

Basically the only realistic option at DM is maybe saliba (from that list). 

 

[narduch]

36 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Sure, a bunch of those guys, as well as Kone, Eustaquio, Sigur, Arfield, Teibert, Saliba, Froese, Hojabrpour, Sean Young, Alghamdi etc etc. He might surpass some, or all of them, but I’m not at all convinced he has yet. I hope he does in the future though

He didn't even play their last game

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I didn't grade his performance in the same way.  From post on the match thread:

I re-watched and charted his 60+ minutes of play and I would say that his play on the ball was fairly limited.  Ten passes (one forward pass giveaway) most of them pretty basic fare, two crosses.  He reminded me of Kevin Harmse as a midfielder for Canada and TFC with the limited involvement in the passing side of the game. 

Defensively, he lost two out of three 50/50s duels and as you noted got bypassed a number of times.  His best play was closing down the cross by Zendejas on the left.

Otherwise, not really a factor nor a presence out there.  Even last night, where his performance there was viewed by some as his best of the three starts there, you can see his lack of feel for the position (not moving into better pass reception positions to provide an outlet, not shielding after he had a nice forward run on the dribble, losing possession, then drawing a foul in trying to get it back).  He's going to have to play this spot a lot at club level a lot to get that feel.

However, I looked at his online metrics after my re-watching and for his 60 minutes he was rated better than Fraser for his final 60 minutes as his replacement, fwiw. 

After reading this I think my judgement of him having a good game against the states was relative to his other midfield performances, which were awful (Cuba) and variable (Guadeloupe)

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

He played 65ish minutes on his debut at CDM. He wasnt terrible against guadeloupe. Surely theres some grace on a players debut when hes not horrible. He had 82% pass completion in this game. KDB had an average of 78% last year. (obviously not apples to apples). 

Then he played RCB against guatemala in the first half and was decent at cdm. 

Then against cuba he was subbed after 30ish minutes when he was clearly struggling.

Im not sure I agree that he "continued" to play CDM when he gave the ball away cheaply. The only game he was obviously struggling to retain possession as a CDM resulted in a sub after 30 minutes.  The other games seem to have his performance blown out of proportion. 

He did have good moments against Guadeloupe so it wasn't the disaster that was Cuba. He did plenty of good things. He also had some bad moments. If we want to average it and say he was "okay" then I would agree. I don't think we can ignore that his bad moments were the same but more frequent in his Cuba game, without none of the good moments (that I remember anyways).

I may have to re-watch the Guadeloupe game. Maybe it won't be as bad as I remember. 

[narduch]

26 minutes ago, narduch said:

He didn't even play their last game

And in other news he will have a new manager.

Robin Fraser is out.

Chris Little is interim

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Kone and staq dropped out of the GC. Sigur is non committed and playing RB (is there anything to suggest hes a 6 and not an 8). Arfield is retired. Alghamadi is likely committed to SA.

I wouldnt go back to tiebert. Hes not going to get any better and hes not currently good enough for CMNT, may as well look at potential. 

Froese has been playing further forward and isnt a 6. 

Saliba is an interesting shout. is he a proper DM though? I wouldve loved to see him at the GC. 

The rest are CPL guys who are not clearly ahead of bombito. They should make the step up to MLS if they are truly CMNT quality. Sure theres an argument to be made but bombito is projected to have a high ceiling. Why ignore that in favour of a CPL player whos arguably not as good as bombito?

Basically the only realistic option at DM is maybe saliba (from that list). 

 

I’m thrilled there are people that rate him as highly as you do, and I hope he turns into the player you think he will. I still have no clue how you conclude that he’s is our only realistic option though, or why you are only talking about the previous GC?

Does the fact that Sigur played the last handful of games, and much of his career as a DM not count?

Kone and Eustaquio are definitely ahead of Bombito, and so is Arfield, whose situation is very different now than it was when he retired from the national team. He’s now in the US where almost all our games are played. Without seeing much of him I’d also likely play Fraser, Loturi, Kaye, Piette, and Choiniere before him. 

 Alghamdi isn’t cap tied, and he learned to play in Canada, but he’s probably a long shot. People love to hate on Teibert but he has over 300 appearances, largely as a DM, and largely more effective than anything we’ve seen from Bombito. He’s played under a slew of managers, but I agree his game is pretty limited and he’s behind other players. He’s a dependable option though. Froese and Saliba have both played more DM in their careers than Bombito, so I don’t know why you question them in that position but not playing Bombito out of position. 

Young and Hojabrpour both have played the position well for several seasons, and could very easily be regulars in MLS or a similar level next season. I find it more likely that both play in MLS before Bombito goes to Besiktas, but I’d love to be wrong. The Turkish media is notorious for throwing out rumours. Both have also been projected to have a high ceiling and both are younger than Bombito  

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Aird25

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, Aird25 said:

I’m thrilled there are people that rate him as highly as you do, and I hope he turns into the player you think he will. I still have no clue how you conclude that he’s is our only realistic option though, or why you are only talking about the previous GC?

Does the fact that Sigur played the last handful of games, and much of his career as a DM not count?

Kone and Eustaquio are definitely ahead of Bombito, and so is Arfield, who’s situation is very different now than it was when he retired from the national team. He’s now in the US where almost all our games are played. Alghamdi isn’t cap tied, and he learned to play in Canada, but he’s probably a long shot. People love to hate on Teibert but he has over 300 appearances, largely as a DM, and largely more effective than anything we’ve seen from Bombito. He’s played under a slew of managers, but I agree his game is pretty limited and he’s behind other players. He’s a dependable option though. Froese and Saliba have both played more DM in their careers than Bombito, so I don’t know why you question them in that position but not playing Bombito out of position. 

Young and Hojabrpour both have played the position well for several seasons, and could very easily be regulars in MLS or a similar level next season. I find it more likely that both play in MLS before Bombito goes to Besiktas, but I’d love to be wrong. The Turkish media is notorious for throwing out rumours. Both have also been projected to have a high ceiling and both are younger than Bombito  

 

My point of bombito being our only option is for the GC. Im not advocating for bombito on the A squad as a DM. 
I would love sigur over bombito but he was never going to commit during the GC. Arfield is not a 6 and was never going to play the GC. Staq and kone are out too. So of the remaining players I use the following logic. 

Are any of them clearly the best player - no
Which player has the highest likelihood to contirbute to the A team - bombito at RCB. Or saliba in a few years. 
Who has the highest ceiling - saliba or bombito
Which player provides the most valuable skillset - bombito's athleticism is sorely needed at CB and in midfield he can arguably cover 6 alone and free up kone and staq.

Im not sure if you have different logic for your selection or if you disagree with my answers on the questions. 

[Aird25]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

My point of bombito being our only option is for the GC. Im not advocating for bombito on the A squad as a DM. 
I would love sigur over bombito but he was never going to commit during the GC. Arfield is not a 6 and was never going to play the GC. Staq and kone are out too. So of the remaining players I use the following logic. 

Are any of them clearly the best player - no
Which player has the highest likelihood to contirbute to the A team - bombito at RCB. Or saliba in a few years. 
Who has the highest ceiling - saliba or bombito
Which player provides the most valuable skillset - bombito's athleticism is sorely needed at CB and in midfield he can arguably cover 6 alone and free up kone and staq.

Im not sure if you have different logic for your selection or if you disagree with my answers on the questions. 

I didn’t realize you were just justifying his GC selection.

I’ll have to take your word that he has the highest potential. I certainly haven’t seen it yet, but I hope it’s true. I’m just wary you want him on the team because he’s athletic, not because he’s any good or has demonstrated a particular aptitude for the position. I seem to recall you advocating against MacNaughton because you don’t consider him athletic enough too. Strength and speed are great attributes, but players still need to be decent footballers 

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I didn’t realize you were just justifying his GC selection.

I’ll have to take your word that he has the highest potential. I certainly haven’t seen it yet, but I hope it’s true. I’m just wary you want him on the team because he’s athletic, not because he’s any good or has demonstrated a particular aptitude for the position. I seem to recall you advocating against MacNaughton because you don’t consider him athletic enough too. Strength and speed are great attributes, but players still need to be decent footballers 

I advocate against mcnaughton or ZMG as outside centerbacks due to their lack of mobility when paired with vitoria as the central CB. We get punished on the counter way too often with AJ, Kamal and vitoria that adding an even less mobile defender would be brutal. Mcnaughton as a central CB is a good shout and Ive really warmed up to his ability recently. 

Bombito out of position as a DM, on his debut for canada, in pretty extreme heats, with like 6 pro games under his belt had an 82% passing average. Arfield in MLS where 4 of his 6 games were small sub appearances is at 78%. Im not comparing the 2 directly because of small sample sizes, penetrating vs cycling a pass etc. However, its not like bombito was waaay off the mark.

I want footballers over athletics any day. However, if I have to choose between players who are roughly equal in quality, I would choose the skillset who benefits the CMNT. The skillset I think we need is athleticism at CB.

lets assume waterman and bombito are roughly equal. Who would you call up... Obviously theres a strong case waterman is currently the better player but I do think itll be much closer when bombito has a proper preseason and year of pro experience.

[Obinna]

15 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

lets assume waterman and bombito are roughly equal. Who would you call up... Obviously theres a strong case waterman is currently the better player but I do think itll be much closer when bombito has a proper preseason and year of pro experience.

Unless it is a friendly I would always call up the best player, regardless of age. 

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Unless it is a friendly I would always call up the best player, regardless of age. 

You missed the point about my hypothetical.... I was trying to make a point about how player profiles can improve the team when players are roughly equal in talent. I just didnt want to get into a debate about waterman vs bombito while trying to make that point.  

Geertruida is called up to the netherlands over frimpong because hes more sound defensively. Frimpongs the better player but geertruida compliments the squad better in koemans eyes. 

[Fullback]

Finally started at CB for the Rapids last night. It was their first win since July so that’s gotta be a good sign for him getting some more playing time at CB rather than fullback

[costarg]

57 minutes ago, Fullback said:

Finally started at CB for the Rapids last night. It was their first win since July so that’s gotta be a good sign for him getting some more playing time at CB rather than fullback

or midfield.

[costarg]

57 minutes ago, Fullback said:

 CB rather than fullback

That's saying something, coming from Fullback.

[Obinna]

Anyone what the game? How did he do?