Moise Bombito

[Bigandy]

21 minutes ago, Obinna said:

For sure. I personally have no doubt Bombito has a high ceiling, which is why he was included in both squads over the summer, which I was okay with, but the rub for me is that NT should not be about development. When Bombito was starting, especially at midfielder, it felt like development to me. 

He had some shocking turnovers in midfield at the Gold Cup and looked very uncomfortable. He also looked very decent, dare I say good, against the USA in the biggest game of the tournament. 

It'll be very interesting what happens to Bombito at the NT level. I think Herdman was unafraid to use the NT as development because 1. he's a developer and 2. he's done that with the CWNT - because he managed them in an era where club soccer wasn't doing the development for him.

Now Bombito is tied and although he's doing alright at Colorado, he's not exactly lighting MLS on fire. Does he get into the Japan game ahead of McGraw or Vitoria? He probably shouldn't. Johnston? Not going to happen. Do we drop a LCB? Miller is probably a lock and Cornelius definitely deserves a recall. Kennedy we could make a case, but he seems to be having a good season in Austria and is certainly playing more minutes than Bombito. The league may be somewhat weaker, but the club is probably on par with Colorado, if not stronger. And that aside Kennedy is part of the core and may not even be the player Bombito is competing with. 

Anyways, looking forward to seeing what happens there with Herdman out. 

If it is development, I agree to a degree. Theres something to be said about only picking your best players, but also something to be said about integrating high potential players early so they get used to the conditions by the time they are ready to start.

However, bombito at the GC was not really development. As a CB he earned his spot as the only RCB available (other than zator whos included and arguably waterman). 

As a DM, he also earned his call up for the GC. Who else is there? Okello or priso? (choiniere deserves a spot on the team more but 1 was injured and 2 is not a DM). Kaye? I dont think theres clearly 1 DM who was overlooked for bombito so if I have to choose bombito vs priso/kaye, I know who Im choosing. 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, jonovision said:

Fair point. I was one of those that ended up playing defense most years in youth soccer. Not because I had no skill, but because I didn't complain about it.

That said, I am surprised how rigidly most professionals end up playing one or two positions only, not just within a season but also over the course of a long career where physiological changes might suggest a change in role. 

This was me as well. Early on though I did play more midfield and even forward, but as things became more competitive the skills on the ball from playing upfield helped when I played defense. It's a natural progression.

The other thing is that we have countless examples of players capable of playing multiple positions. I think of someone like Alvarez at West Ham now, previously Ajax, who is equally comfortable playing both midfield and defense. That could be Bombito, potentially.

[PopePouri]

6 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

If it is development, I agree to a degree. Theres something to be said about only picking your best players, but also something to be said about integrating high potential players early so they get used to the conditions by the time they are ready to start.

However, bombito at the GC was not really development. As a CB he earned his spot as the only RCB available (other than zator whos included and arguably waterman). 

As a DM, he also earned his call up for the GC. Who else is there? Okello or priso? (choiniere deserves a spot on the team more but 1 was injured and 2 is not a DM). Kaye? I dont think theres clearly 1 DM who was overlooked for bombito so if I have to choose bombito vs priso/kaye, I know who Im choosing. 

I think Kaye has had a resurgence under Bruce Arena. He seems back to his dominant self.

[Kadenge]

During WCQ and WC we did not have a replacement for AJ at RCB, but  he may be an option as a DM. He played there in his youth. Doesn't have Bombito's height but he's a solid tackler, plays with grit and a good passer. Not slow either.

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, PopePouri said:

I think Kaye has had a resurgence under Bruce Arena. He seems back to his dominant self.

TBH I havnt seen his resurgence, but at the time of the GC he was still with TFC. In either case, I find it hard to include Kaye whos not a true DM over a younger, higher ceiling bombito who could truly allow staq and kone more freedom in midfield. Kaye wouldnt unlock the attacking freedom of those 2. 

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

As a DM, he also earned his call up for the GC. Who else is there? Okello or priso? (choiniere deserves a spot on the team more but 1 was injured and 2 is not a DM). Kaye? I dont think theres clearly 1 DM who was overlooked for bombito so if I have to choose bombito vs priso/kaye, I know who Im choosing. 

Loturi? 

To be fair to your point the coaching staff may have simply decided Bombito was more effective as a DM than Loturi. They had ample time to evaluate both (wasn't Loturi in the Vegas NL squad too). 

Where I would push back is that Bombito made mistakes in the first game and was then given another chance and then had a horror show and was eventually yanked. The fact they gave him a second chance ahead of Loturi felt like they committed to the idea of Bombito at DM ahead of what was actually happening on the field.

Like I said though, he did have a good game against the states, so we could argue their patience/commitment with him paid off.

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, PopePouri said:

I think Kaye has had a resurgence under Bruce Arena. He seems back to his dominant self.

Was gonna say that in my prior post. Perhaps that's someone who comes back in ahead of Bombito come Oct, especially if NER keep up chugging along while Bombito and Colorado play out the season already eliminated.

[Obinna]

14 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

However, bombito at the GC was not really development. As a CB he earned his spot as the only RCB available (other than zator whos included and arguably waterman). 

I would have picked Waterman over Bombito just based on club form, or McNaughton (if he was available), but I like that we cap tied Bombito, so it was fine by me.

[costarg]

15 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

If it is development, I agree to a degree. Theres something to be said about only picking your best players, but also something to be said about integrating high potential players early so they get used to the conditions by the time they are ready to start.

However, bombito at the GC was not really development. As a CB he earned his spot as the only RCB available (other than zator whos included and arguably waterman). 

As a DM, he also earned his call up for the GC. Who else is there? Okello or priso? (choiniere deserves a spot on the team more but 1 was injured and 2 is not a DM). Kaye? I dont think theres clearly 1 DM who was overlooked for bombito so if I have to choose bombito vs priso/kaye, I know who Im choosing. 

WTH, serious?  Fraser and Loturi were both there, what more do you need?  That makes way more sense than playing half the team out of position.  All this 3d chess makes one thing very clear, Herdman thinks he knows better than everyone else and tries too hard to reinvent the wheel.  He just had to keep it simple.

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, costarg said:

WTH, serious?  Fraser and Loturi were both there, what more do you need?  That makes way more sense than playing half the team out of position.  All this 3d chess makes one thing very clear, Herdman thinks he knows better than everyone else and tries too hard to reinvent the wheel.  He just had to keep it simple.

Chill out man.  Youre always so emotional. 

Fraser and loturi were at the GC. I literally said he earned a CALL UP to the GC. So did fraser and loturi. Its not like bombito took their spot on the roster. He took a spot away from..... priso? kaye? 

[Bigandy]

18 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Loturi? 

To be fair to your point the coaching staff may have simply decided Bombito was more effective as a DM than Loturi. They had ample time to evaluate both (wasn't Loturi in the Vegas NL squad too). 

Where I would push back is that Bombito made mistakes in the first game and was then given another chance and then had a horror show and was eventually yanked. The fact they gave him a second chance ahead of Loturi felt like they committed to the idea of Bombito at DM ahead of what was actually happening on the field.

Like I said though, he did have a good game against the states, so we could argue their patience/commitment with him paid off.

Theres an argument over playing time for bombito vs loturi. I was talking about the call up to GC. 

As for playing time, Im not sure loturi is much of an upgrade on bombito and he doesnt have the physical upside/ ceiling that bombito appears to have. I wanted to see more loturi but i think we both agree that loturi is not clearly better than bombito.  
 

14 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I would have picked Waterman over Bombito just based on club form, or McNaughton (if he was available), but I like that we cap tied Bombito, so it was fine by me.

Mcnaughton wasnt in as great of form as he is now (still good though) but he wouldve struggled as a RCB and we had vitoria and ZMG as central CBs. I think waterman was coming off an injury and had not really imposed himself when the GC was announced (i think?). However, I think bombito vs waterman is splitting hairs in terms of current quality but bombito is younger, higher ceiling and a better stylistic match for what we need, while waterman has consistent minutes in a consistentish position. If its not a clear upgrade then I go with the higher potential player. 

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, costarg said:

WTH, serious?  Fraser and Loturi were both there, what more do you need?  That makes way more sense than playing half the team out of position.  All this 3d chess makes one thing very clear, Herdman thinks he knows better than everyone else and tries too hard to reinvent the wheel.  He just had to keep it simple.

Good point. I forgot about Fraser too. We know how highly Herdman thinks of Fraser, so to play Bombito ahead of him in that first game was definitely surprising. I guess you could say that Fraser joined late compared to Bombito though. I still think it was moreso they wanted to see Bombito specifically because they earmarked him as a future midfielder for Canada.

Whether we call that "development" or not, I wasn't a big fan of it and even less so when Bombito struggled. He redeemed himself against the USA, so I am still open minded about the Bombito midfield experient.

Something tells me that with Herdman gone we'll see him back in defense more often than not. Let's see though...

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Theres an argument over playing time for bombito vs loturi. I was talking about the call up to GC. 

As for playing time, Im not sure loturi is much of an upgrade on bombito and he doesnt have the physical upside/ ceiling that bombito appears to have. I wanted to see more loturi but i think we both agree that loturi is not clearly better than bombito.  
 

Mcnaughton wasnt in as great of form as he is now (still good though) but he wouldve struggled as a RCB and we had vitoria and ZMG as central CBs. I think waterman was coming off an injury and had not really imposed himself when the GC was announced (i think?). However, I think bombito vs waterman is splitting hairs in terms of current quality but bombito is younger, higher ceiling and a better stylistic match for what we need, while waterman has consistent minutes in a consistentish position. If its not a clear upgrade then I go with the higher potential player. 

Sorry bud I missed that you were talking about call up specifically. In that case yeah, hard to argue with Bombito being next man up. Priso despite being a midfielder didn't really deserve it. It's funny though because he's played more midfield at the same club that Bombito is at. Didn't Colorado say they view him as being a midfielder too, or am I making that up? Swear I heard that somewhere. Either way, it's all a bit strange and fascinating to me how Bombito has been shifted around so much this early in his pro career. 

Hmm...what about Harry Paton? Not the same profile exactly, but he is a centre midfielder and he was getting playing time with Motherwell already by the time GC came around. Choniere should have been called over both, but yeah Paton, at least that's one CM who could enter the debate here....

 

[costarg]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Chill out man.  Youre always so emotional. 

Fraser and loturi were at the GC. I literally said he earned a CALL UP to the GC. So did fraser and loturi. Its not like bombito took their spot on the roster. He took a spot away from..... priso? kaye? 

Chill?  Emotional?  I'm feeling relieved, every one of your posts makes me so glad he's gone, it's the justifying and defending of the mistakes ad nauseum.

We're talking about Herdman playing Bombito at DM, not the roster spot.  

You said "As a CB he earned his spot as the only RCB available.  As a DM, he also earned his call up for the GC. Who else is there? Okello or priso?"

He never earned a call up for playing DM, what are you referring to?  NCAA minutes? 

The guys that earned the playing time at DM were right there on the bench.
 

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Sorry bud I missed that you were talking about call up specifically. In that case yeah, hard to argue with Bombito being next man up. Priso despite being a midfielder didn't really deserve it. It's funny though because he's played more midfield at the same club that Bombito is at. Didn't Colorado say they view him as being a midfielder too, or am I making that up? Swear I heard that somewhere. Either way, it's all a bit strange and fascinating to me how Bombito has been shifted around so much this early in his pro career. 

Hmm...what about Harry Paton? Not the same profile exactly, but he is a centre midfielder and he was getting playing time with Motherwell already by the time GC came around. Choniere should have been called over both, but yeah Paton, at least that's one CM who could enter the debate here....

 

All good. It was talked about on this board that both herdman and colorado see him as a DM long term. Agreed on priso. he doesnt deserve it but technically hes getting more minutes than bombito at DM. 

Choiniere 100% deserved a call but thats like saying you take bernardo silva over rodri. They play different roles in the midfield. Call up choiniere but then we still need a DM. Same goes for Paton. That would be a very dicey call up though. He's not a DM, hasnt gotten significant minutes/lit up the league. And theres so much controversy around him that is he really worth the risk if hes arguably not even good enough for the GC squad? At the very least, patons exclusion for non soccer reasons isnt surprising. 

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

Chill?  Emotional?  I'm feeling relieved, every one of your posts makes me so glad he's gone, it's the justifying and defending of the mistakes ad nauseum.

We're talking about Herdman playing Bombito at DM, not the roster spot.  

You said "As a CB he earned his spot as the only RCB available.  As a DM, he also earned his call up for the GC. Who else is there? Okello or priso?"

He never earned a call up for playing DM, what are you referring to?  NCAA minutes? 

The guys that earned the playing time at DM were right there on the bench.
 

Ummm.... I was the one who started this conversation about earning his call up to the GC.  You even copied and pasted my sentence. I clearly stated that I was referring to his call up to the GC as per my original post. Its wild that you are trying to tell me that I was talking about playing time when I clearly told you what I was referring to.  

Again, I will reiterate. Please tell me which DM earned a ROSTER spot over bombito. Or perhaps you agree there were no other options. 

As for playing time, thats another debate and I have repeatedly said that I wish loturi got more minutes. However, can you just chill out and stop taking my very clear opinion on one topic (roster spots) and applying it to other topics(playing time). Just read what I actually wrote instead of being blinded by your obsession with Herdmans 4D chess claims.  

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

All good. It was talked about on this board that both herdman and colorado see him as a DM long term. Agreed on priso. he doesnt deserve it but technically hes getting more minutes than bombito at DM. 

Choiniere 100% deserved a call but thats like saying you take bernardo silva over rodri. They play different roles in the midfield. Call up choiniere but then we still need a DM. Same goes for Paton. That would be a very dicey call up though. He's not a DM, hasnt gotten significant minutes/lit up the league. And theres so much controversy around him that is he really worth the risk if hes arguably not even good enough for the GC squad? At the very least, patons exclusion for non soccer reasons isnt surprising. 

Fair enough for sure.

Not to focus on Paton too much in the Bombito thread, but I do think he's a very interesting case himself. Not good enough for me to call him an outright snub, but good enough to linger in my mind about whether he should be called into the NT.

So long as our midfield depth is lacking and he remains a solid contributor for Motherwell, I am going to keep thinking about him. As time goes on any non-soccer controversy should fade, plus he may build his case for a call more and more with good play, but on the other hand, the lack of depth is going to be filled sooner than later. Choniere will get his chance, Bombito may get more CM chances, Piette and Kaye could easily come back into the team, etc. 

[narduch]

29 minutes ago, costarg said:

Chill?  Emotional?  I'm feeling relieved, every one of your posts makes me so glad he's gone, it's the justifying and defending of the mistakes ad nauseum.

We're talking about Herdman playing Bombito at DM, not the roster spot.  

You said "As a CB he earned his spot as the only RCB available.  As a DM, he also earned his call up for the GC. Who else is there? Okello or priso?"

He never earned a call up for playing DM, what are you referring to?  NCAA minutes? 

The guys that earned the playing time at DM were right there on the bench.
 

As far as I can tell he still has not played a single minute of DM for his club 

[Bigandy]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

As far as I can tell he still has not played a single minute of DM for his club 

In fairness, johnston hasnt played RCB ever for celtic and probably didnt ever play there professionally before herdman put him there. With our lack of depth, our depth charts include players playing out of position. 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

In fairness, johnston hasnt played RCB ever for celtic and probably didnt ever play there professionally before herdman put him there. With our lack of depth, our depth charts include players playing out of position. 

Another good point. 

One difference between Johnston and Bombito is that Johnston was already chugging along with Nashville, whereas Bombito has barely gotten going with Colorado. Maybe an unfair bias but I think being a starter for his club meant that playing out of position wasn't as jarring. More importantly he was doing it well. That's the main thing. Had Bombito been suprub in midfield the narrative would be completely different and nobody would care he's barely played for Colorado. 

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Another good point. 

One difference between Johnston and Bombito is that Johnston was already chugging along with Nashville, whereas Bombito has barely gotten going with Colorado. Maybe an unfair bias but I think being a starter for his club meant that playing out of position wasn't as jarring. More importantly he was doing it well. That's the main thing. Had Bombito been suprub in midfield the narrative would be completely different and nobody would care he's barely played for Colorado. 

100% agree. The only reply I have to that is again, the lack of depth in that position and his inclusion was at the GC which is a good time to be experimental. Had it been our A team and/or we had another option, I would be jarred too. 

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Ummm.... I was the one who started this conversation about earning his call up to the GC.  You even copied and pasted my sentence. I clearly stated that I was referring to his call up to the GC as per my original post. Its wild that you are trying to tell me that I was talking about playing time when I clearly told you what I was referring to.  

Again, I will reiterate. Please tell me which DM earned a ROSTER spot over bombito. Or perhaps you agree there were no other options. 

As for playing time, thats another debate and I have repeatedly said that I wish loturi got more minutes. However, can you just chill out and stop taking my very clear opinion on one topic (roster spots) and applying it to other topics(playing time). Just read what I actually wrote instead of being blinded by your obsession with Herdmans 4D chess claims.  

I'll break it down and keep it simple..... Bombito did not earn a DM spot on the roster.  He plays CB, he earned a CB spot.  We did not need 3 DM's.

[Bigandy]

Just now, costarg said:

I'll break it down and keep it simple..... Bombito did not earn a DM spot on the roster.  He plays CB, he earned a CB spot.  We did not need 3 DM's.

Based on how he played DM, I would disagree and say he earned the number 1 DM spot. Whether its the correct decision or not is up for debate but to keep it really simple, a player who starts as a DM is the number 1 DM. We may not have needed 3 DM's but that was what JH chose. 

[Corazon]

5 hours ago, Bigandy said:

If it is development, I agree to a degree. Theres something to be said about only picking your best players, but also something to be said about integrating high potential players early so they get used to the conditions by the time they are ready to start.

However, bombito at the GC was not really development. As a CB he earned his spot as the only RCB available (other than zator whos included and arguably waterman). 

As a DM, he also earned his call up for the GC. Who else is there? Okello or priso? (choiniere deserves a spot on the team more but 1 was injured and 2 is not a DM). Kaye? I dont think theres clearly 1 DM who was overlooked for bombito so if I have to choose bombito vs priso/kaye, I know who Im choosing. 

I'm still holding out hope on Justin Smith as a CDM or CB.  He looked so strong for us with the U20's and he's still owned by a top French club.  Although last season was disappointing and moving down to 3rd division in France puts him far off our program but as I mentioned in another thread, Avranches have given him the #6 jersey, so he must be considered their top CDM at the club, Especially considering he is in on loan.

Still likely a ways away but he is also 3 years younger than Bombito.

[Corazon]

4 hours ago, narduch said:

As far as I can tell he still has not played a single minute of DM for his club 

Which is strange given Herdman was told that was Colorado's long term plan for him (still may be) but he's played almost every position except CDM for them.