CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[Ftduck]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

It's so fantastic to see the league trend in a positive direction. It's just going to get better but at what rate?

I think to truly breakthrough the league needs credibility with the general public. The average Canadian or international soccer fan needs to see those direct lines. That means various things.. mainstream media coverage/respect, competition vs credible leagues MLS/LigaMX even the better Central American teams. And players from reputable soccer cultures or recognizable players. Not saying they should do that but just a few ways to break in to the consciousness of the average Canadian sports consumer. 

The mainstream media one is tough because it is what it is. 

I'm gonna be a broken record here and remind everyone about early TFC days. In 2008 I remember radio sports basically complaining they had to talk about soccer at all. In 2010 I remember an American sports show ripping on the actual MLS Cup they had in studio, rolling their eyes, and throwing their piece of chalk in it when they were done the soccer segment. Blatant lack of respect 15 short years ago. Dont think they are doing this any more. It will just take time. It's all about attendance I think. If the stadiums look full, news/sports channels will report it. 

[Ansem]

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

I'm not saying club management is irrelevant.  Clearly it does play a role.  I just think the Toronto market is different than any other in Canada with the “less-than” perception problem.  And I think that problem sets a limit on how well a CPL team will do even with fantastic management.  I further worry that that limit will be below the threshold of viability. 

You're right in regards to a league competing against "the best league in the world at what they do". No matter how many time you want to raise this point, that's just not the case with MLS and even the most casual of casual fans are very much aware of this. Yes, everyone knows that MLS has the quality and its been around longer but you're putting MLS in a box where it doesn't belong.

A good quality on the pitch, convenience, price, marketing, brand awareness can draw fans to a CPL club - areas where York United failed at launch it the most part. Doesn't help when most in their immediate area don't know they even exist.

Even as an MLS fans who used to go to games frequently when I was living in Liberty Village, moving to North York changed my habits quite a bit... BMO Field can be quite the commute for MOST Torontonians. Sure, they'll commute for big games, CCL, Messi, Ronaldo etc... I beg to differ that casuals will for Sporting Kansas City, Cincinnati or Real Salt Lake.

 

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

Toronto metro is the largest market in the country.  Depending on how you define it, it’s somewhere between 6 and 7 million.

York doesn’t have the stature to draw from all of that, nor did they position themselves as a Toronto team.  Still, they have access to a larger market than any other CPL team.  Yet they can barely outdraw a league-owned zombie team in Edmonton?  To me, that says there’s more in play than just bad management.

Their marketing strategy (if they had any) was utter crap. They blew it with their launch which invited utter indifference from the Toronto press (York 9... a York Region club in North York who are in Toronto temporarily because they really want to move to Vaughan) yeah, good luck with that with a name like "York 9" on top of it".

Fine, they then reposition their brand as a Toronto team - good but this was done in the middle of a pandemic when no games were being in-front of a public. The York United promo by that actor (Baruchel?) came one year too late... they should have led with that!

Not saying that your argument isn't part of the equation but you're oversimplifying it and dismissing it as just being  "perceived as lower" therefore, they can't succeed when there's obviously more to that like "hard to compare/perceive something as lower when most aren't even aware of the club existance"

 

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

For the Argos, yes, demographics are an issue.  Even if we cut out half the population, however, they’re still the second largest market in the league.  Any they can only draw 11 000 fans?  It’s because at least half the football fans in the market prefer to remote view the higher level NFL than support a local CFL team.

Maybe, but they aren't playing at the same time while playoffs and Grey Cup still draw massively. We have a problem in this country where we have this need to compare ourselves to a neighbor that's 10 times our size and call anything that isn't similar a failure. Yes 11k is much lower than what they use to draw but that ain't bad either. Half of Toronto aren't born in Canada (CFL football most likely aint their thing) while younger generations are more into other sports.

Perhaps it's time for the Argo to take a hint and move where their demographics actually resides... older suburban GTA residents who prefer to drive and aren't fan of commuting to and within Toronto. I think they could have much bigger attendances somewhere else within the GTA.

 

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

The Wolfpack did well.  Why?  Because they were the highest level of rugby that was going to be available.  How many people even realize that Toronto now has a pro rugby team playing in the lower level MLR?

They called themselves "Toronto", got the attention of the press and I think were televised at some point? Winning doesn't hurt and their marketing/business approach was much better than York 9 (not that big of an accomplishment)

Let's be honest, most people wouldn't even know what to compare it with so the "highest level argument" is a bit of a stretch, really. The club made it convenient to go, were in a central location with a big population and had decent media coverage that York 9 never came close too (mostly their own fault)

 

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

Why did every pre-MLS soccer team in Toronto draw so much less than their counterparts in the smaller cities of Vancouver and Montreal?  Especially proportionate to market size?

Because their marketing/business approach were leagues crappier than the other 2? Pre-MLS Montreal...I know how much work was put in over decades to get that club mainstream by Saputo even before entering MLS. I have doubts that this level of effort and perseverance was there in Toronto, I could be wrong.

 

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

The Marlies are an admitted outlier.  Maybe hockey is just that popular?  Although the OHL failed in Toronto twice and also failed in Brampton and Mississauga.

Or maybe the way they run their club on and off the ice actually matter and had an awareness on how to draw with regards to their market? (Something York never had a clue about fyi)

 

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

Again, management, stadium, and all the other things that matter elsewhere do also matter in Toronto.  In addition, however, the market is simply unfriendly to anything with a whiff of second-tier to it in a way that other Canadian markets generally aren’t.  I think that’s going to be a serious problem for even a very well run CPL team.  (Although hopefully I'm wrong.)

York United has everything it needs to succeed at Woodbine, it's on them to capitalize.

They have :

• Timing - 2026 World Cup coinciding with their move their
• Population - They will be at the heart of a new neighborhood with up to 60k new residents
• Entertainment District as a tourist destination
• Transit access : Hwy 427 near the 401, Airport, LRT, GO Station to Downtown and Brampton/Kitchener
• Proximity with Peel, York while based in Northern Toronto and branding themselves as such
• Brand new soccer specific stadium

Does all the above guarantee success? No, Downtowners aren't likely to come all the way north and that's ok! The club capturing their immediate surrounding area consistently would give them good crowds.

York could still completely blow it but if it fails that's more likely because of them dropping the ball than just "being perceived as lower". The perception is an obstacle but depending at what you're aiming for - if they focus on their target client and not trying to outclass TFC which is impossible for the foreseeable future

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ansem

[Kingston]

21 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You're right in regards to a league competing against "the best league in the world at what they do". No matter how many time you want to raise this point, that's just not the case with MLS and even the most casual of casual fans are very much aware of this.

To be clear, that is never what I said.  Everyone realizes MLS is not the best in the world.  What I said was the best that is realistically available and that is what MLS is for the Toronto market.  

24 minutes ago, Ansem said:

York United has everything it needs to succeed at Woodbine, it's on them to capitalize.

I guess we'll see how they do when/if they move to Woodbine.  If they succeed there, then it looks like I'm wrong and the "less than" factor can be overcome.  If they fail there despite all the advantages you listed, then it looks like I'm right.  This is one case where I'd be quite happy to be wrong.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Ftduck said:

....In 2008 I remember radio sports basically complaining they had to talk about soccer at all...

The FAN 590 used to be really bad for that. The ironic thing was their number one soccer hater Bob McCoun had actually got his start in sports radio doing NASL play-by-play in Miami back in the 1970s.

Toronto was a city where you could have hundreds of thousands of people on the street celebrating if Italy won the World Cup but sports radio was run by Know Nothings on a mission to make sure sure only hockey, baseball, CFL/NFL and if you are lucky basketball were ever covered. Close to 24/7 presenter after presenter constantly trying to brainwash people into believing nobody in Canada cared about soccer in a city where half the population was born overseas.

They might have got away with it if it wasn't for that pesky Richard Peddie....

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Treppy2]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:04 PM, Shway said:

This is so easy to say....

I think they are still trying to dig themselves from the 9 foot grave they initially created with the bad marketing/positioning.
The solution isn't to compete with TFC, but to use their gameday experience as a bench mark that is sorely lacking at York U regardless of the minor renos they did.

They need to find something intimate, and make it feel like its a home. Pacific, HFX, and Cavalry have all done this.

Well done!

[ATM]

3 hours ago, Treppy2 said:

Well done!

As i have mentioned twice already, York United need to move to a city where they are not competing with other pro teams.

They need to move that team to Niagara Falls, London or Windsor. They will be able to draw from surrounding municipalities as there are no pro teams to compete with. Personally I like Niagara Falls as a Pro Soccer location. Have a stadium built near downtown. It's a win win with restaurants,  casinos, bars and amusement attractions.  There would be alot to do before and after a game.  And almost everyone in Canada....AND the U.S know where or have been to Niagara Falls. York Region is a suburban Municipality with a few large malls and luckily Wonderland. Not really a destination for most, if any.

How long is the owner of Greenpark willing to bleed money.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by ATM

[Ftduck]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Toronto was a city where you could have hundreds of thousands of people on the street celebrating if Italy won the World Cup

This is what has been driving me crazy for 20 years lol. Hamilton is the same. Euro/World cup celebrations on James Street North are a blast. Countless hours spent in Portuguese clubs eating and drinking with my Dad watching footy. Whenever I'd bring up the local semi pro team .... crickets! No interest whatsoever. The good news is now I see lots of TFC pariphanalia. Hopefully in 15 years there will be Forge/CPL shwag all over the place. Man I miss pregentrified James street.

[Ftduck]

46 minutes ago, ATM said:

How long is the owner of Greenpark willing to bleed money.

Is it THE owner of Greenpark? The person sitting on top? Like Peter, forget his last name, from Mattamy? If so, the operating cost of York United would amount to his pocket lint. I'd be more worried about him getting bored with it. 

[ATM]

47 minutes ago, Ftduck said:

Is it THE owner of Greenpark? The person sitting on top? Like Peter, forget his last name, from Mattamy? If so, the operating cost of York United would amount to his pocket lint. I'd be more worried about him getting bored with it. 

Carlo Baldassara.

I know it doesn't cost them much, but the rich do not like losing money, that's why they are rich.

And you do have a point, maybe boredom takes over and doesn't have the patience to see this thru?!

[Blue and White Army]

8 hours ago, Ansem said:

• Transit access : Hwy 427 near the 401, Airport, LRT, GO Station to Downtown and Brampton/Kitchener

The Finch West LRT will only go as far southwest at Humber College. That's still a ways north of Woodbine.

Woodbine GO train station: while convenient for me because I live near an existing stop, if Torontonians don't live near Union, Bloor, Weston, or Etobicoke North stations, it might not be convenient for many people. Although the subway is relatively slow, York University's Line 1 feeds of lot of Torontonians.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Blue and White Army said:

The Finch West LRT will only go as far southwest at Humber College. That's still a ways north of Woodbine.

There's already plans to extend the line all the way to Pearson via Woodbine. The TTC will have buses from Humber College LRT Station

 

1 hour ago, Blue and White Army said:

Woodbine GO train station: while convenient for me because I live near an existing stop, if Torontonians don't live near Union, Bloor, Weston, or Etobicoke North stations, it might not be convenient for many people. Although the subway is relatively slow, York University's Line 1 feeds of lot of Torontonians.

The Kitchener line will cross Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown (Kennedy to Renforth/Mississauga BRT, eventually Pearson) at Mount Dennis Station.

 

Also, new stations will be built at St.Clair West/Old Weston & King-Liberty.

St.Clair & Old Weston (Stockyards, Corso Italian, St.Clair Streetcar to Yonge via Forest Hill)

 

King-Liberty (Train derby, BMO Field to Woodbine stadium) to downtown via Liberty Village

 

By 2025, the line will be electrified and run frequent service between union and Bramalea, eventually all the way to Kitchener.

Direct links from Brampton, Pearson into Waterloo Region

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Ansem

[BurndenAce]

4 hours ago, ATM said:

As i have mentioned twice already, York United need to move to a city where they are not competing with other pro teams.

They need to move that team to Niagara Falls, London or Windsor. They will be able to draw from surrounding municipalities as there are no pro teams to compete with. Personally I like Niagara Falls as a Pro Soccer location. Have a stadium built near downtown. It's a win win with restaurants,  casinos, bars and amusement attractions.  There would be alot to do before and after a game.  And almost everyone in Canada....AND the U.S know where or have been to Niagara Falls. York Region is a suburban Municipality with a few large malls and luckily Wonderland. Not really a destination for most, if any.

How long is the owner of Greenpark willing to bleed money.

 

Direct competition with TFC is not the problem. I made a longer post about this, but (speaking as a Torontonian) there are two reasons this team is failing;

1. The Team was not marketed to Torontonians

The stereotype is true folks, we’re arrogant. We have very strict definitions on what is and what isn’t Toronto. York Region is not Toronto. Metro areas are not symbiotic relationships unless the cities involved are roughly the same size (Kitchener-Waterloo, Minneapolis-St. Paul etc). Most, if not all Torontonians have no interest in supporting a team named after a suburb that does not cater to them. So calling a team “York” or “Durham” or “Peel” is a non-starter for almost 3 million of that 6 million metro area.

2. “York Region” is not one united entity.

My roommate is from Newmarket. There is no way in hell he is going to commute down the 403 to watch a game in Vaughan, three cities and a green belt away from where he lives. So that puts Newmarket, Aurora, Bradford, Georgina, Stouffville and Uxbridge off the table as places where reliable support can be drawn from. 

So that leaves Vaughan, Markham and Richmond Hill. The issue is, all three of these cities are suburbs. They don’t have the unique identity that a place like Hamilton does, they think of themselves as Torontonians who weren’t lucky enough to live in Toronto. So the chance of building a strong support base is minuscule if you don’t have a unique population base to begin with.

 

The solution to putting a team in the Toronto market is very simple - Advertise the team to Torontonians as a team for them. Put the team at Lamport or in East York at Monarch Park. Appeal to whatever facets TFC aren’t working on right now. Build a local support based in a neighbourhood where people want to live and work in, not outside the city boundaries just because a couple hundred-thousand people happen to live there because they couldn’t afford a condo.

As an aside, I’m not from BC so my knowledge of the area isn’t strong, but I fear the new team in Langley will suffer the same fate as York.

 

[Kingston]

7 hours ago, BurndenAce said:

Direct competition with TFC is not the problem. I made a longer post about this, but (speaking as a Torontonian) there are two reasons this team is failing;

1. The Team was not marketed to Torontonians

The stereotype is true folks, we’re arrogant. We have very strict definitions on what is and what isn’t Toronto. York Region is not Toronto. Metro areas are not symbiotic relationships unless the cities involved are roughly the same size (Kitchener-Waterloo, Minneapolis-St. Paul etc). Most, if not all Torontonians have no interest in supporting a team named after a suburb that does not cater to them. So calling a team “York” or “Durham” or “Peel” is a non-starter for almost 3 million of that 6 million metro area.

Having formerly lived in Brampton for many years, I can attest that the opposite is not true.  People in the suburbs are more than willing to associate with teams from the core city.  That's why I think the new CPL team calling themselves Vancouver is a good move.  Similarly, a CPL team in the GTA should probably call itself Toronto rather than York or Scarborough or whatever.

[MtlMario]

16 minutes ago, Kingston said:

 Similarly, a CPL team in the GTA should probably call itself Toronto rather than York or Scarborough or whatever.

If only a team like Inter Milan would buy the team then tell could call it Inter Toronto.😀

[Kingston]

8 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

If only a team like Inter Milan would buy the team then tell could call it Inter Toronto.😀

Or Nottingham Forest and they could call it Not Toronto.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

If only a team like Inter Milan would buy the team then tell could call it Inter Toronto.😀

Inter Toronto FC was one of the names MLSE and MLS trademarked back in 2007. Met with mixed reviews on the fan messageboards at the time.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[MtlMario]

It was more of a half joke replying to the comment of the team being named Toronto.😎

[Aird25]

10 hours ago, BurndenAce said:

Direct competition with TFC is not the problem. I made a longer post about this, but (speaking as a Torontonian) there are two reasons this team is failing;

1. The Team was not marketed to Torontonians

The stereotype is true folks, we’re arrogant. We have very strict definitions on what is and what isn’t Toronto. York Region is not Toronto. Metro areas are not symbiotic relationships unless the cities involved are roughly the same size (Kitchener-Waterloo, Minneapolis-St. Paul etc). Most, if not all Torontonians have no interest in supporting a team named after a suburb that does not cater to them. So calling a team “York” or “Durham” or “Peel” is a non-starter for almost 3 million of that 6 million metro area.

2. “York Region” is not one united entity.

My roommate is from Newmarket. There is no way in hell he is going to commute down the 403 to watch a game in Vaughan, three cities and a green belt away from where he lives. So that puts Newmarket, Aurora, Bradford, Georgina, Stouffville and Uxbridge off the table as places where reliable support can be drawn from. 

So that leaves Vaughan, Markham and Richmond Hill. The issue is, all three of these cities are suburbs. They don’t have the unique identity that a place like Hamilton does, they think of themselves as Torontonians who weren’t lucky enough to live in Toronto. So the chance of building a strong support base is minuscule if you don’t have a unique population base to begin with.

 

The solution to putting a team in the Toronto market is very simple - Advertise the team to Torontonians as a team for them. Put the team at Lamport or in East York at Monarch Park. Appeal to whatever facets TFC aren’t working on right now. Build a local support based in a neighbourhood where people want to live and work in, not outside the city boundaries just because a couple hundred-thousand people happen to live there because they couldn’t afford a condo.

As an aside, I’m not from BC so my knowledge of the area isn’t strong, but I fear the new team in Langley will suffer the same fate as York.

 

You could very well be right about why York is struggling to attract fans, but I think there are a lot of reasons why people choose to live in suburbs other than just not being able to afford in the city (coming from someone that cashed out in the city, and fled to a suburb). 

[Blue and White Army]

11 hours ago, BurndenAce said:

So that leaves Vaughan, Markham and Richmond Hill. The issue is, all three of these cities are suburbs. They don’t have the unique identity that a place like Hamilton does, they think of themselves as Torontonians who weren’t lucky enough to live in Toronto. So the chance of building a strong support base is minuscule if you don’t have a unique population base to begin with.

The solution to putting a team in the Toronto market is very simple - Advertise the team to Torontonians as a team for them. Put the team at Lamport or in East York at Monarch Park.

The club has already shifted its identity to include Toronto (but whether Torontonians are actually aware is another matter). Perhaps having "Toronto" in the name could be helpful, but "York" is now meant to include both Toronto and York County.

As for Lamport and Monarch Park: Lamport is great, but for L1O. It's just too close to BMO Field to work as a CPL venue. The distance between Lamport and BMO is what, a quarter of the distance between Stamford Bridge and Craven Cottage?

Monarch Park is also a great venue, but it juts out from a high school immediately to its north. Again, ideal for L1O, but not CPL. It was sad when Sanjaxx Lions wound up their senior sides that played at Monarch a few years back, as I was considering attending their games regularly.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Blue and White Army

[narduch]

3 hours ago, Blue and White Army said:

The club has already shifted its identity to include Toronto (but whether Torontonians are actually aware is another matter). Perhaps having "Toronto" in the name could be helpful, but "York" is now meant to include both Toronto and York County.

As for Lamport and Monarch Park: Lamport is great, but for L1O. It's just too close to BMO Field to work as a CPL venue. The distance between Lamport and BMO is what, a quarter of the distance between Stamford Bridge and Craven Cottage?

Monarch Park is also a great venue, but it juts out from a high school immediately to its north. Again, ideal for L1O, but not CPL. It was sad when Sanjaxx Lions wound up their senior sides that played at Monarch a few years back, as I was considering attending their games regularly.

I drove by Varsity yesterday and thought that might make a good CPL stadium

[Kingston]

57 minutes ago, narduch said:

I drove by Varsity yesterday and thought that might make a good CPL stadium

Unfortunately, U of T has been very unwilling to share with pro teams in the past.

[Blue and White Army]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

I drove by Varsity yesterday and thought that might make a good CPL stadium

Great location (literally seconds from the subway, on Bloor Street, etc.), but seating on only the east side, and permanent throwball lines on the pitch. Another venue that would probably best suite L1O, and (sadly) previously did host L1O. Depressing to think that this venue that once hosted Canada internationals and the Toronto Lynx has intentionally been limited to university usage.

Brockton Stadium, on the other hand...

Edited November 2, 2022 by Blue and White Army

[Mihairokov]

18 minutes ago, Blue and White Army said:

Great location (literally seconds from the subway, on Bloor Street, etc.), but seating on only the east side, and permanent throwball lines on the pitch. Another venue that would probably best suite L1O, and (sadly) previously did host L1O. Depressing to think that this venue that once hosted Canada internationals and the Toronto Lynx has intentionally been limited to university usage.

L1O did play some men's and women's matches at Varsity in 2022 - Alliance was hosting out of there. It's likely not a permanent home and I imagine it's difficult for some teams to get in to downtown depending on when matches are scheduled.

I don't think there's any hope for CPL at Varsity any time soon, or Lamport for that matter, as great as either would be.

18 minutes ago, Blue and White Army said:

Brockton Stadium, on the other hand...

What a fun little stadium. I'll have to check this out in person sometime. I'm a big supporter of Monarch Park hosting more L1O but Brockton is really compelling for a number of reasons....although it doesn't look like it has a ton of space to expand into if we are considering CPL usage.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mihairokov

[Blue and White Army]

2 hours ago, Mihairokov said:

L1O did play some men's and women's matches at Varsity in 2022 - Alliance was hosting out of there. It's likely not a permanent home and I imagine it's difficult for some teams to get in to downtown depending on when matches are scheduled.

Ooooh, I wasn't aware. Are they likely to be back for 2023?

[Mihairokov]

17 hours ago, Blue and White Army said:

Ooooh, I wasn't aware. Are they likely to be back for 2023?

No idea. They started the season at Centennial and then ended up at Varsity.