Ottawa CPL Club

[BuzzAndSting]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

So questions

For how long or until when do they manage TD place?

Is there more space on that land? (Lansdowne Park)

With the current financial difficulties, wouldn't OSEG penalize themselves from banning an Ottawa CPL club from the stadium if the Fury goes on hiatus or fold?*

*I don't think there will be 2 pro Ottawa clubs. CPL is waiting for the CONCACAF thing to play out.

If you make money and break even, sure but losing money and not being able to pay the city what they are expected would be detrimental, no?

Worse case scenario is playing elsewhere, which could still get some funding from the city to help renovate existing facilities or partner on a proposal to redevelop another area according to the article below.

Lansdowne stadium 'monopoly' clause nixed

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.958968

The exclusivity clause, explained to councillors Thursday, had stated that if the city does back a new sports facility with more than 5,000 seats in the next 30 years, OSEG has the right to:

• Walk away from certain agreements with the city concerning Lansdowne Park's Frank Clair Stadium.
• Be the first organization given the opportunity to lease the new facility for its Canadian Football League franchise or Ontario Hockey League team.

I don't even see how it would be in OSEG's interest to block CPL from the stadium to begin with...

The agreement is 25 or 30 years, not sure.

There’s no more land at Landsdowne.

There’s no scenario in which a non-OSEG owned team plays at TD Place. There’s no logical reason for them to fold the Fury and allow a team owned by someone else to operate at their stadium. If there was no alternative they would just move the Fury to the CPL and continue to operate the club. Assuming of course they’re as dedicated to soccer as they’ve said.

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

The agreement is 25 or 30 years, not sure.

There’s no more land at Landsdowne.

There’s no scenario in which a non-OSEG owned team plays at TD Place. There’s no logical reason for them to fold the Fury and allow a team owned by someone else to operate at their stadium. If there was no alternative they would just move the Fury to the CPL and continue to operate the club. Assuming of course they’re as dedicated to soccer as they’ve said.

Thanks for the answer.

Best for everyone they see the light and comply then.

Something good might come out of it. If CPL find investors / ownership group and Fury wants to exist, OSEG could use a partner with the group.

Everyone wins... more money in the soccer side and new approach to attract fans in the region

Edited March 28, 2019 by Ansem

[matty]

in light of everything unless a party or both are totally stupid, they're going to have to find a way to do business together

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Thanks for the answer.

Best for everyone they see the light and comply then. Cheers!

and that cpl don't act like idiots. they'll have won as long as they don't over play and do something stupid like charge a $20m fee or some idiotic crap like that (they don't do that....i assume)

Edited March 28, 2019 by matty

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, matty said:

and that cpl don't act like idiots. they'll have won as long as they don't over play and do something stupid like charge a $20m fee or some idiotic crap like that (they don't do that....i assume)

Don't know what you're talking about, they'd charge the same they would charge Laval or Lower Mainland I presume.

If they do find another ownership, it actually be a genius move to have OSEG partner with them on soccer Operations. At least CPL would have more trust in that team ownership, like you said

Edited March 28, 2019 by Ansem

[matty]

Just now, Ansem said:

Don't know what you're talking about, they'd charge the same they would chard Laval or Lower Mainland I presume.

If they do find another ownership, it actually be a genius move to have OSEG partner with them on soccer Operations. At least CPL would have more trust in that team ownership, like you said

Just using an insane number to say please don't be insane. I'm curious if they do a fee or have some kind of deduction from say the MediaPro fund a team would get.

Yea it's an if, sure they can't force it but doubt they'd reject an investor or partner

[Gopherbashi]

44 minutes ago, matty said:

in light of everything unless a party or both are totally stupid, they're going to have to find a way to do business together

Has Brexit taught you nothing? ?

[matty]

1 minute ago, Gopherbashi said:

Has Brexit taught you nothing? ?

that's just british people doing their relevant every 20 years thing

[Viruk42]

17 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

I understand your passion for the idea of an alternative pop up stadium in Ottawa but there’s really no space available in the Greenbelt let alone along the new Confed Line that wouldn’t require a masssssssssive investment to purchase the land and demo existing structures.

The only plausible scenarios are working with either University or outside of the Greenbelt.

You know, this is just occurring to me, but there's a lot of empty space right around Hurdman station? Like, south of the stadium just seems to be piles of gravel slowly growing shitty grass, if I remember right.

I have no idea about land ownership, etc, and it might be a bit weird to put a stadium so close to the Lees Campus stadium (unless it was part of a partnership with Ottawa U), but it's kind of the perfect spot where public transit is concerned, being at the intersection of the north-south transitway and east-west train (assuming they ever finish it). It's a far better spot than Lansdowne and I'd say better than Lebreton too (the train might be faster than transitway buses, but the train route is not along residential areas, whereas the transitway is). Not the easiest by car of course, with just Riverside, but it's also not too hard as it's close to the highway.

Just a thought.

[BuzzAndSting]

29 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

You know, this is just occurring to me, but there's a lot of empty space right around Hurdman station? Like, south of the stadium just seems to be piles of gravel slowly growing shitty grass, if I remember right.

I have no idea about land ownership, etc, and it might be a bit weird to put a stadium so close to the Lees Campus stadium (unless it was part of a partnership with Ottawa U), but it's kind of the perfect spot where public transit is concerned, being at the intersection of the north-south transitway and east-west train (assuming they ever finish it). It's a far better spot than Lansdowne and I'd say better than Lebreton too (the train might be faster than transitway buses, but the train route is not along residential areas, whereas the transitway is). Not the easiest by car of course, with just Riverside, but it's also not too hard as it's close to the highway.

Just a thought.

If we’re thinking of the same space it’s possible but I believe that land is part of the federally owned Rideau River protection area that will be returned to green space one the LRT construction is over.

[dyslexic nam]

11 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

If we’re thinking of the same space it’s possible but I believe that land is part of the federally owned Rideau River protection area that will be returned to green space one the LRT construction is over.

If you stretch the concept of "green space" enough...

[Viruk42]

13 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

If we’re thinking of the same space it’s possible but I believe that land is part of the federally owned Rideau River protection area that will be returned to green space one the LRT construction is over.

Oh ya? I found a "transit oriented development plan" from 2013 that talks about developing the bulk of the area into apartments and the like. They seem to maintain some of the existing green space (basically the stuff with trees, I think), but it also mentions that much of it is "vacant and part of former landfill areas", and that the land is mostly owned by the city or the NCC. Having said that, it is from late 2013, so you might be right as much can change in 5 years.

http://ottwatch.ca/meetings/file/98755/File_TOD2_Plan_Revised_draft_Nov_27_13part2_pdf_Item_TRANSIT_ORIENTED_DEVELOPMENT_PLANS_OFFICIAL_PLAN_AMENDMENTS_AND_ZONING_BY_LAW_AMENDMENTS_FOR_LEES_HURDMAN_AND_BLAIR_TRANSIT_ORIENTED_DEVELOPMENT_STATION_AREAS_Meeting_Planning_Committee_Date_2013_12_10_09_30_00 
 

2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

If you stretch the concept of "green space" enough...

It's funny, especially because lawn-type grass is not native to North America. So if you think about it, the average city park is just as good or bad for the environment as a small stadium with so-called natural grass ?

[BuzzAndSting]

2 hours ago, Viruk42 said:

Oh ya? I found a "transit oriented development plan" from 2013 that talks about developing the bulk of the area into apartments and the like. They seem to maintain some of the existing green space (basically the stuff with trees, I think), but it also mentions that much of it is "vacant and part of former landfill areas", and that the land is mostly owned by the city or the NCC. Having said that, it is from late 2013, so you might be right as much can change in 5 years.

http://ottwatch.ca/meetings/file/98755/File_TOD2_Plan_Revised_draft_Nov_27_13part2_pdf_Item_TRANSIT_ORIENTED_DEVELOPMENT_PLANS_OFFICIAL_PLAN_AMENDMENTS_AND_ZONING_BY_LAW_AMENDMENTS_FOR_LEES_HURDMAN_AND_BLAIR_TRANSIT_ORIENTED_DEVELOPMENT_STATION_AREAS_Meeting_Planning_Committee_Date_2013_12_10_09_30_00 
 

It's funny, especially because lawn-type grass is not native to North America. So if you think about it, the average city park is just as good or bad for the environment as a small stadium with so-called natural grass ?

I hadn’t seen those plans but that is promising. 

[Ansem]

If OSEG doesn't work out, CPL should definitely flirt with investors and try to partner them with developers. Usually, a new rapid transit line triggers redevelopment and/or revitalization of areas.

*Torontonians would know what the Sheppard Subway did for North York Centre.

I'm an urban geek so my 2 cents. Pitching the stadium on it's own to a city is a difficult sell as they are giving you most likely prime land for it which is a higher risk on the potential return vs the value of the land.

Attach that stadium with a developers project to revitalize an area maximizing the revenue for the city with added value (tourism, entertainment, etc...) and they tend to have a more favorable ear.

It's not an absolute rule but cities prefer that. 

[Initial B]

On 3/25/2019 at 6:03 PM, m-g-williams said:

The only other option I could see would be to go the York 9 route and pay for significant upgrades to either Carleton or UOttawa's stadium. The locations aren't the greatest though, and it would still come off as rinky-dink compared to what the Fury have at Lansdowne. When you're trying to sell yourself as Tier 1 but play in a facility that's clearly second-rate . . . I just don't see it working for either team. 

Carleton's stadium would be perfect because it's 200 metres from an O-train station. The transit options for this location are great. It would need permanent concessions and washroom facilities, though.

[Ams1984]

23 minutes ago, Initial B said:

Carleton's stadium would be perfect because it's 200 metres from an O-train station. The transit options for this location are great. It would need permanent concessions and washroom facilities, though.

Makes sense. 

One thing I’m not really getting is that some people are talking as if there’s only TD Place in the whole Ottawa area... it’s the only possible place for a soccer club to be! Any other location would be complete folly!! 

I’m wondering if that’s not just the battle cry of the worried Fury fan who rightly perceives that their club is in very serious jeopardy of becoming irrelevant. 

[matty]

1 minute ago, Ams1984 said:

Makes sense. 

One thing I’m not really getting is that some people are talking as if there’s only TD Place in the whole Ottawa area... it’s the only possible place for a soccer club to be! Any other location would be complete folly!! 

I’m wondering if that’s not just the battle cry of the worried Fury fan who rightly perceives that their club is in very serious jeopardy of becoming irrelevant. 

na there's valid concerns to their opinions and not just troll issues
-carlton' stadium does look like total shit compared to td place
-teams that are more suburban (cavs, pfc and york 9) all either reportedly or are rumoured to have weak ticket sales
-ottawa's transit is usually the worst rated of the major cities in canada
-limited land

[matty]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

If OSEG doesn't work out, CPL should definitely flirt with investors and try to partner them with developers. Usually, a new rapid transit line triggers redevelopment and/or revitalization of areas.

*Torontonians would know what the Sheppard Subway did for North York Centre.

I'm an urban geek so my 2 cents. Pitching the stadium on it's own to a city is a difficult sell as they are giving you most likely prime land for it which is a higher risk on the potential return vs the value of the land.

Attach that stadium with a developers project to revitalize an area maximizing the revenue for the city with added value (tourism, entertainment, etc...) and they tend to have a more favorable ear.

It's not an absolute rule but cities prefer that. 

if oseg doesn't work out i expect that the fury will have closed up shop and that td place will need something to fill dates as they want to turn landsdown into a money maker rather than pit. as a result i think they'd lease it to a cpl team. the only issue is who runs the team

[Initial B]

I meant to mention that I was at the Ottawa Fury SSH event on Monday and there was a Q&A period where the past year was brought up and JdG was pretty supportive of the CPL. Talking offline, I had a chance to voice my concerns to some of the staff. What they said was that it all came down to money. They paid an expansion fee to join the NASL, lost that when they joined the USL and paid another expansion fee. They estimate the current valuation of the club at around $7.1 million. From what I understood, it looks like the USL believes there are a number of locations in the US that want a club, but the USL Championship is eventually going to stop expanding and have new clubs join at the USL1 level. The Fury believe that if they did make the Jump to CPL and it failed, they would be not be allowed back to the USL because their spot would be snapped up and with no league to play, they would be forced to fold. This is something that supporters should consider - if CPL fails, there is no option for the remaining viable clubs to join an american league, so I'm praying that it is successful.

They also mentioned that OSEG had spent $22 million on upgrades on the club up to this point and didn't want to lose the work they put into it. I can confirm, because when I went on a tour of the South Stand construction back in 2013, both the Fury and the RedBlacks had their own separate locker rooms and training areas being built. When I consider the failed trajectories of Canadian professional soccer leagues over the past 3 decades, I understand their reticence.

They said that if forced, they would obviously have to join the CPL, but they hope to see it successful and join at the point that makes the most business sense to them and pay the franchise fee. Quite a few of the attendee conversations I overheard wanted to see the Fury in CPL sooner than later, because they felt more invested cheering against Canadian cities than American ones.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Initial B

[Initial B]

18 minutes ago, matty said:

na there's valid concerns to their opinions and not just troll issues
-carlton' stadium does look like total shit compared to td place
-teams that are more suburban (cavs, pfc and york 9) all either reportedly or are rumoured to have weak ticket sales
-ottawa's transit is usually the worst rated of the major cities in canada
-limited land

I don't know where you're getting that from. Nationwide, OCTranspo is considered one of the best systems, but also with the most expensive fares. The cost is usually the biggest complaint, sure we grumble when the snowstorms knock the schedules out of whack, but it's pretty efficient otherwise.

[matty]

Just now, Initial B said:

I don't know where you're getting that from. Nationwide, OCTranspo is considered one of the best systems, but also with the most expensive fares. The cost is usually the biggest complaint, sure we grumble when the snowstorms knock the schedules out of whack, but it's pretty efficient otherwise.

of the major cities (toronto, montreal, vancouver, edmonton, calgary and ottawa) it's usually ranked either 5th or 6th. it was also recently ranked 8th when brampton and winnipeg were included  https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/redfin-ranks-the-best-canadian-cities-for-public-transit-in-2019-897916453.html

[Ams1984]

28 minutes ago, matty said:

na there's valid concerns to their opinions and not just troll issues
-carlton' stadium does look like total shit compared to td place
-teams that are more suburban (cavs, pfc and york 9) all either reportedly or are rumoured to have weak ticket sales
-ottawa's transit is usually the worst rated of the major cities in canada
-limited land

Hmm... sounds plausible enough. I don’t really know Ottawa very well, so I can’t say that you are wrong. I’m not sure though how weak Y9’s ticket sales are, I have not seen any real numbers from any of those clubs. 

[matty]

5 minutes ago, Ams1984 said:

Hmm... sounds plausible enough. I don’t really know Ottawa very well, so I can’t say that you are wrong. I’m not sure though how weak Y9’s ticket sales are, I have not seen any real numbers from any of those clubs. 

they and pfc are rumoured to be low, cavs have seemingly under-performed given the size of the market there and the number is confirmed.

Edited March 28, 2019 by matty

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

23 minutes ago, Initial B said:

...The Fury believe that if they did make the Jump to CPL and it failed, they would be not be allowed back to the USL because their spot would be snapped up and with no league to play, they would be forced to fold. This is something that supporters should consider - if CPL fails, there is no option for the remaining viable clubs to join an american league, so I'm praying that it is successful....

Sounds like the USL Championship might max out soon in numbers terms. Doesn't mean there wouldn't be other possibilities at D3 level if CanPL failed. 

[Ams1984]

6 minutes ago, matty said:

they and pfc are rumoured to be low, cavs have seemingly under-performed given the size of the market there and the number is confirmed.

I’m just wondering how accurate that is though... ’rumored to be’ isn’t exactly set in stone. I’m not saying you’re incorrect, I’m just saying that it seems far from certain to be true.