Ottawa CPL Club

[BuzzAndSting]

20 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

There is NO traffic on weekends on the bridges. At all. 

Even if it was dependent on Gatineau, the metro area there has nearly 400 000 inhabitants, and a stronger economy than Halifax. I think it would be fine-ish. 

As mentioned in subsequent posts, I was mainly referring to weekdays. But with both new and existing bridge construction scheduled for the next few years there will be traffic issues throughout the week.

And what are you basing your strength of economy statement on? The average income in Gatineau from the latest Census data is $45990 and for Halifax it is $46440. Not exactly a big difference. 

And according to stats can Gatineau has a population of 276 245 to HRM’s 336 980.

[matty]

gonna try and predict what happens here, if wrong oh well

in light of everything the fury will reopen talks prior to their sanctioning (in say july) in an attempt to avoid the fiasco of last winter, potential legal fees from said fiasco, and the risk of competition. the cpl, while annoyed with them, will be open to chatting, because the fury remain the easiest way into the market, but will continue to seek outside investors for an ottawa cpl club. in the end an agreement will be reached, possibly with the fury making some management changes (jdg either sacked or demoted) and maybe with an outside investor buying a stake in the club, for the fury to join in 2021 with their roster sort of liquidated but the branding intact.

in the end this is a business, as ansem points out, and this is the best route for both parties. oseg get to keep their soccer team (which they've invested in heavily) going and cpl gets the easiest entry into the ottawa market and the best stadium in the city.

this conclusion makes sense but it's canadian soccer so i wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't happen.

Edited March 27, 2019 by matty

[baulderdash77]

I suspect that a deal will be worked out as well.  

The Fury will get squeezed by everyone and even though the bridges may seem burned, they will get rebuilt.

[dyslexic nam]

9 hours ago, matty said:

gonna try and predict what happens here, if wrong oh well

in light of everything the fury will reopen talks prior to their sanctioning (in say july) in an attempt to avoid the fiasco of last winter, potential legal fees from said fiasco, and the risk of competition. the cpl, while annoyed with them, will be open to chatting, because the fury remain the easiest way into the market, but will continue to seek outside investors for an ottawa cpl club. in the end an agreement will be reached, possibly with the fury making some management changes (jdg either sacked or demoted) and maybe with an outside investor buying a stake in the club, for the fury to join in 2021 with their roster sort of liquidated but the branding intact.

in the end this is a business, as ansem points out, and this is the best route for both parties. oseg get to keep their soccer team (which they've invested in heavily) going and cpl gets the easiest entry into the ottawa market and the best stadium in the city.

this conclusion makes sense but it's canadian soccer so i wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't happen.

I think they will come back into the fold as well.  I think CONCACAF has given a clear signal that status quo won't fly in the future - especially if CPL can demonstrate strong economic performance and a comparable level of play via the V Cup.  Ashas been said (ad nauseum) the idea of defensible "exceptional circumstances" gets much weaker under those circumstances.

Not sure about the JdG thing.  I doubt CPL tries to assert itself the point where it starts dictating HR inside the organization - despite the douchey things JdG has said.  He will pay the price in terms of a tarnished legacy, but I don't see his position being dictyated to OSEG. 

But it is a business, as you said, so I think cooler heads will prevail in what may still be the most common sense win-win scenario.  The one thing I can see the league being firm on is Ottawa's current "affiliate" status.  CPL has shown that it is open to some player loans from MLS sides, there is little reason to take a hard stance against them, but putting limits in place (to both avoid competitive imbalance and the "farm team" perception) seems pretty essential.

 

[matty]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

...Not sure about the JdG thing.  I doubt CPL tries to assert itself the point where it starts dictating HR inside the organization - despite the douchey things JdG has said.  He will pay the price in terms of a tarnished legacy, but I don't see his position being dictyated to OSEG. 

I mostly agree, I think that's unlikely but still a distant possibility. I think the 'liquidation' of their roster will happen

[BuzzAndSting]

25 minutes ago, matty said:

I mostly agree, I think that's unlikely but still a distant possibility. I think the 'liquidation' of their roster will happen

Well they pretty much liquidate 3/4 of their roster every year!

[matty]

1 minute ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Well they pretty much liquidate 3/4 of their roster every year!

this would be 100%

[Ansem]

Another fundamental in business is

• you don't do business with bad partners

Easy, convenient, cooler heads prevailing...all of that is irrelevant in business. Right now, CPL don't view OSEG as good business partners hence putting it out there that they are looking to move on.

OSEG must demonstrate to CPL that they can be good and reliable partners that they can trust. Until that's demonstrated and they keep their current rhetoric, you'd have to be a business fool to partner with them. they just won't take that kind of risk after the millions and value they put into the product.

CPL has most of the leverage here

[matty]

42 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Another fundamental in business is

• you don't do business with bad partners

Easy, convenient, cooler heads prevailing...all of that is irrelevant in business. Right now, CPL don't view OSEG as good business partners hence putting it out there that they are looking to move on.

OSEG must demonstrate to CPL that they can be good and reliable partners that they can trust. Until that's demonstrated and they keep their current rhetoric, you'd have to be a business fool to partner with them. they just won't take that kind of risk after the millions and value they put into the product.

CPL has most of the leverage here

yes i touched on this. i said that fury would likely have to do certain things including possibly bringing on a cpl approved partner. in addition how do they prove then unless there is an outline set? if the fury reach out it will be up to the cpl to actually be clear about what is needed.

cpl does have most leverage but the fury do have 2 key things that would make entering the market easier for cpl and the cpl should not go all dumbass machiavellian otherwise they could sorely delay an ottawa team

Edited March 27, 2019 by matty

[Sébastien]

1 hour ago, matty said:

yes i touched on this. i said that fury would likely have to do certain things including possibly bringing on a cpl approved partner. in addition how do they prove then unless there is an outline set? if the fury reach out it will be up to the cpl to actually be clear about what is needed.

cpl does have most leverage but the fury do have 2 key things that would make entering the market easier for cpl and the cpl should not go all dumbass machiavellian otherwise they could sorely delay an ottawa team

Liked for "all dumbass machiavellian". Well done.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, matty said:

cpl does have most leverage but the fury do have 2 key things that would make entering the market easier for cpl and the cpl should not go all dumbass machiavellian otherwise they could sorely delay an ottawa team

Nothing machiavellian about it, CPL owners aren't successfully wealthy by going settling into business with partners they don't trust or aren't a "fit" for their project.

All I'm saying, the Fury must start as of today to change their narrative because doing so the next day following a CONCACAF refusal to sanction them won't fool anybody at CPL. They'll want in to survive, not because they truly believe in the project and my friend, you just don't do business under these circumstances... wanting to partner with you for the wrong reasons.

A massive show of good faith is committing to CPL "behind the scenes" (they can't do it publicly until USL season is over) ASAP and comply to whatever they ask. Last minute flip flop won't do, regardless of an existing organization and stadium.

Like I said from the get go, staying in USL wasn't the issue but they publicly handled it like pure dicks. If they would have gave a "clear no", handled the PR with CPL with proper notice and kept quiet, I'm sure CPL would have had the patience for an extra season or 2 but being dicks made CPL go "F-them"

Edited March 27, 2019 by Ansem

[matty]

15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Nothing machiavellian about it, CPL owners aren't successfully wealthy by going settling into business with partners they don't trust or aren't a "fit" for their project.

people have actively suggested they use machiavellian tactics to either beat the fury into submission or fold. 

15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

All I'm saying, the Fury must start as of today to change their narrative...

like this?

Edited March 27, 2019 by matty

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

...I'm sure CPL would have had the patience for an extra season or 2 but being dicks made CPL go "F-them"

I'll believe that has happened when I hear Paul Beirne saying it in a podcast. Business is business and OSEG controls the only viable venue in Ottawa as things stand at the moment. 

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, matty said:

people have actively suggested they use machiavellian tactics to either beat the fury into submission or fold. 

like this?

Your 1st point:

To those who thinks that, "cry me a river". It's a business, not charity and the business world is cutthroat. I'm not saying CPL is doing this on purpose but they are looking after their own interests first and foremost and if it means leaving the Fury in the dust to accomplish their goal of a CPL Ottawa and truly go national, they won't lose sleep over it. It's a business decision, not personal.

Some of those players and staff would quickly be hired by the new team and other will have future CPL expansion teams to count on. Someone else would just fill the vacuum.

 

2nd point:

Just like in a relationship, If my girl disrespects me over the course of a few months and decided to be nice to me all of a sudden, I would need consistency and her to *beep* a whole lot of *beep* before I change my mind on her. Some guys are like that but others would just dump her and not care about her begging... We'll see which the CPL is...

Sorry to be so blunt lol

 

[Ansem]

19 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I'll believe that has happened when I hear Paul Beirne saying it in a podcast. Business is business and OSEG controls the only viable venue in Ottawa as things stand at the moment. 

Oh... what is that? Surely that's not impossible to replicate in Ottawa.

Controlling 1 stadium (that isn't soccer specific) isn't nearly good enough reason to hold out until they decide to join. Clearly, they decided that they could live without TD place.

Where? Any land (acquired or rented) near one of these locations

Edited March 27, 2019 by Ansem

[matty]

45 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Your 1st point:

To those who thinks that, "cry me a river". It's a business, not charity and the business world is cutthroat. I'm not saying CPL is doing this on purpose but they are looking after their own interests first and foremost and if it means leaving the Fury in the dust to accomplish their goal of a CPL Ottawa and truly go national, they won't lose sleep over it. It's a business decision, not personal.

Some of those players and staff would quickly be hired by the new team and other will have future CPL expansion teams to count on. Someone else would just fill the vacuum.

 

2nd point:

Just like in a relationship, If my girl disrespects me over the course of a few months and decided to be nice to me all of a sudden, I would need consistency and her to *beep* a whole lot of *beep* before I change my mind on her. Some guys are like that but others would just dump her and not care about her begging... We'll see which the CPL is...

Sorry to be so blunt lol

 

ansem you're putting personal feelings ahead of sensible business and what is best for canadian soccer again hehe

i do find the idea if the fury becoming a drug mule for the cpl to join the cpl funny.

also just to note about modular stadium it's becoming apparent location does matter further from dt the less season tickets sold it seems. while you could do it, it could mean another million+ city with well under 2k season ticket holders

Edited March 27, 2019 by matty

[Unnamed Trialist]

53 minutes ago, matty said:

people have actively suggested they use machiavellian tactics to either beat the fury into submission or fold. 

Just want to say that people are using the term incorrectly, it does not mean blind, blunt brutal force. Nor using superior strength to impose a will.

It does mean having deeply considered aims and doing everything in your means to accomplish them. it suggests that the final goal is the ultimate ethic, over and above anything in the process of getting there.

So if you can get your result without having to be cunning or unscrupulous, there is no need to be so. A Machivellian approach done properly uses more subtle coercive power for the small things and against lesser rivals, and reserves the extreme methods for more clearly defined enemies with comparable power.

All of this then comes down to how important Ottawa is for the CPL. If the CPL can move forward comfortably and successfully, better do so, and let OSEG come begging further down the line. If Ottawa is essential and has importance beyond its relative population (and I don't really understand why that should be the case, but maybe the symbol of the nation's capital, which is not that important in Canada IMO), then you might work on some Machivellian tactics. Pressuring the CSA, Concacaf, Fifa, the USSF, are all possible ways. Finding rivals within their midst to undermine their position from within the Ottawa region could be another. But all this has to be done without creating a degree of animosity in the city amongst fans that would impede them from supporting a CPL team once it does come, making the entire endeavour futile.

[BuzzAndSting]

54 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Oh... what is that? Surely that's not impossible to replicate in Ottawa.

Controlling 1 stadium (that isn't soccer specific) isn't nearly good enough reason to hold out until they decide to join. Clearly, they decided that they could live without TD place.

Where? Any land (acquired or rented) near one of these locations

I understand your passion for the idea of an alternative pop up stadium in Ottawa but there’s really no space available in the Greenbelt let alone along the new Confed Line that wouldn’t require a masssssssssive investment to purchase the land and demo existing structures.

The only plausible scenarios are working with either University or outside of the Greenbelt.

Edited March 27, 2019 by BuzzAndSting

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, matty said:

ansem you're putting personal feelings ahead of sensible business and what is best for canadian soccer again hehe

i do find the idea if the fury becoming a drug mule for the cpl to join the cpl funny.

also just to note about modular stadium it's becoming apparent location does matter further from dt the less season tickets sold it seems. while you could do it, it could mean another million+ city with well under 2k season ticket holders

Personal feelings? Just business. You'll want to minimize any risks you encounter and OSEG represents such risks as of today. It's not personal but at the "risk assessment" stage, which is a vital stage of any projects, the goal is to minimize them as much as possible and come up with contingency plans. That's project management 

As for location, the O-Train LRT gives you more options in terms of location. Stade Saputo isn't downtown Montreal but it's right next to the green line. With rapid transit, Downtown is a very expensive nice to have but not vital when you have rapid transit.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Ansem

[Ansem]

57 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

I understand your passion for the idea of an alternative pop up stadium in Ottawa but there’s really no space available in the Greenbelt let alone along the new Confed Line that wouldn’t require a masssssssssive investment to purchase the land and demo existing structures.

The only plausible scenarios are working with either University or outside of the Greenbelt.

It would be easier for everyone if the Fury just came around and did everything right and conforms to CPL. In case they don't, there's no choice but to look for alternatives. Even if they folded, they still control the stadium as long as they can fill those dates and conform to their financial obligations while at least breaking even. Seems like Rugby could be coming soon so even if the Fury goes on hiatus, it's doubtful that they let CPL play if they fill the dates. CPL has no choice but to come up with alternatives.

Unlike smaller market and due to the stadium that could very well remain unavailable, they'll need very deep pocket ownership group for this one. Are the University stadium capable of being upgrade like the York Lions Stadium? Is it a good location? Is there space for the University to allocate land for a stadium? If yes, perfect!

Otherwise, it might take a developer partnering with the ownership or a group pitching a project with a modular stadium attached to it. Usually, new rapid transit stations sparks redevelopment and/or revitalization of nearby station to maximize the value of the land which we witness in Toronto or Montreal.

just pitching alternatives

[matty]

25 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Personal feelings? Just business. You'll want to minimize any risks you encounter and OSEG represents such risks as of today. It's not personal but at the "risk assessment" stage, which is a vital stage of any projects, the goal is to minimize them as much as possible and come up with contingency plans. That's project management 

As for location, the O-Train LRT gives you more options in terms of location. Stade Saputo isn't downtown Montreal but it's right next to the green line. With rapid transit, Downtown is a very expensive nice to have but not vital when you have rapid transit.

relax mostly joking about personal feelings but i do disagree about oseg being a risky owner other than not wanting to join originally. I've never heard anything relating to them beimg unstable. essentially there is only 1 real risk with them and that is them not agreeing to join which seems unlikely if they're not total maniacs who like to waste money.

also stade saputo houses a 25 year old team and is at a historic location in montreal. i don't think you can use it.

[matty]

also worth noting https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/lansdowne-park-deal-under-strategic-review-with-lacklustre-financial-returns

[ChrisinOrleans]

2 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

I understand your passion for the idea of an alternative pop up stadium in Ottawa but there’s really no space available in the Greenbelt let alone along the new Confed Line that wouldn’t require a masssssssssive investment to purchase the land and demo existing structures.

The only plausible scenarios are working with either University or outside of the Greenbelt.

Oh man, you are sooo right about that in this town. 

The universities have semi-viable stadiums at best, especially uOttawa with one right off the highway and the renovated Lees station, but it would absolutely look 2nd fiddle to the Fury. Like, TD Place and a university stadium are not even comparable in terms of prestige or drawing power. CanPL would be setting itself up to look like the semi-pro league in town, no question.  

I haven't been down av. Bronson in an age and a half but I cannot imagine the stadium at Carleton is that much better.  

I like CanPL (it's the reason I joined the site), but if it means sitting in an ancient and tiny stadium next to an apartment building (even if its beside the scenic Rideau River AND has a giant Franco-Ontarien flag), I am picking TD Place because there is actually something to do with my kids before and after the game and there is a restaurant within a kilometre. 

 

 

[BuzzAndSting]

19 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

Oh man, you are sooo right about that in this town. 

The universities have semi-viable stadiums at best, especially uOttawa with one right off the highway and the renovated Lees station, but it would absolutely look 2nd fiddle to the Fury. Like, TD Place and a university stadium are not even comparable in terms of prestige or drawing power. CanPL would be setting itself up to look like the semi-pro league in town, no question.  

I haven't been down av. Bronson in an age and a half but I cannot imagine the stadium at Carleton is that much better.  

I like CanPL (it's the reason I joined the site), but if it means sitting in an ancient and tiny stadium next to an apartment building (even if its beside the scenic Rideau River AND has a giant Franco-Ontarien flag), I am picking TD Place because there is actually something to do with my kids before and after the game and there is a restaurant within a kilometre. 

 

 

I think Carleton has a little more room to expand and has way more parking but uOttawa has access to transit. The Carleton train station is about to close for several years so that would be a huge drawback. As you say, neither have access to any pre or post event restaurants and bars although Bank St South is a short walk from Bronson.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, matty said:

also worth noting https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/lansdowne-park-deal-under-strategic-review-with-lacklustre-financial-returns

So questions

For how long or until when do they manage TD place?

Is there more space on that land? (Lansdowne Park)

With the current financial difficulties, wouldn't OSEG penalize themselves from banning an Ottawa CPL club from the stadium if the Fury goes on hiatus or fold?*

*I don't think there will be 2 pro Ottawa clubs. CPL is waiting for the CONCACAF thing to play out.

If you make money and break even, sure but losing money and not being able to pay the city what they are expected would be detrimental, no?

Worse case scenario is playing elsewhere, which could still get some funding from the city to help renovate existing facilities or partner on a proposal to redevelop another area according to the article below.

Lansdowne stadium 'monopoly' clause nixed

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.958968

The exclusivity clause, explained to councillors Thursday, had stated that if the city does back a new sports facility with more than 5,000 seats in the next 30 years, OSEG has the right to:

• Walk away from certain agreements with the city concerning Lansdowne Park's Frank Clair Stadium.
• Be the first organization given the opportunity to lease the new facility for its Canadian Football League franchise or Ontario Hockey League team.

I don't even see how it would be in OSEG's interest to block CPL from the stadium to begin with...