CPL new teams speculation

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I agree with the vidio though that it won't be in the short term. There's still expansion cheques coming and Messi is increasing the overall value of the league while he's in the league. You can maximize the resale value once the league stop expanding and ownership groups are still lining up to get in - now's not the time.

I guess my question would be: if it's not in the short term, how long does the CPL want to not be in Quebec?

There's also an additional factor here. He can sell the team, but MLS may still want to stay in Montreal. It's not an automatic relocation.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Watchmen

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I guess my question would be: if it's not in the short term, how long does the CPL want to not be in Quebec?

CPL seems to be focused on Quebec City

 

6 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

There's also an additional factor here. He can sell the team, but MLS may still want to stay in Montreal. It's not an automatic relocation.

That would imply that the new owner would need a FIFA sanction for an exemption to play in MLS out of Montreal, I can't see a new one being issued.

[SpursFlu]

38 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I guess my question would be: if it's not in the short term, how long does the CPL want to not be in Quebec?

There's also an additional factor here. He can sell the team, but MLS may still want to stay in Montreal. It's not an automatic relocation.

I'm pretty sure if he sold the team to Mark Davis for $400 million he wouldn't keep the team in Montreal. Just a wild assumption 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

43 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

...There's also an additional factor here. He can sell the team, but MLS may still want to stay in Montreal. It's not an automatic relocation.

People definitely seem to be forgetting that MLS is a single entity. Only reason for this topic to even come up as a talking point is that nothing concrete is happening on expansion right now after the Prairieland stadium deal unravelled in Saskatoon.

[SpursFlu]

14 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

People definitely seem to be forgetting that MLS is a single entity. Only reason for this topic to even come up as a talking point is that nothing concrete is happening on expansion right now after the Prairieland stadium deal unravelled in Saskatoon.

Lol that's not true

Aren't you in for a team?

Ozzieville Haters

Edited October 4, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

That would imply that the new owner would need a FIFA sanction for an exemption to play in MLS out of Montreal, I can't see a new one being issued.

I know you love your "FIFA sanctioning" discussions, but the i have no idea why you think a new owner would need to apply for any exemption. The CSA sanctioning would have been granted to the team, not the owner. A change of ownership wouldn't impact it.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I know you love your "FIFA sanctioning" discussions, but the i have no idea why you think a new owner would need to apply for any exemption. The CSA sanctioning would have been granted to the team, not the owner. A change of ownership wouldn't impact it.

I know you hate FIFA sanctioning discussions but the rules are the rules. Ultimately, CONCACAF and FIFA has to ratify it.

The CSA granted the Fury the sanction but were overruled by CONCACAF thus ending the Fury

Doubtful that a new owner would keep the club in Montreal to experience more of the same. They'd most likely be American getting the club out of Montreal 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

37 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I know you hate FIFA sanctioning discussions but the rules are the rules. Ultimately, CONCACAF and FIFA has to ratify it.

The CSA granted the Fury the sanction but were overruled by CONCACAF thus ending the Fury

Doubtful that a new owner would keep the club in Montreal to experience more of the same. They'd most likely be American getting the club out of Montreal 

It's two different discussion points.

1) Would a new owner want to move a team out of Montreal? Well that would depend on MLS, since they could block/approve a sale depending on what they wanted. That's all of sports.

2) Would CSA re-sanctioning of the club be required based on the sale to a new owner, even if the intention was to keep it in Montreal? I have no idea why they would, but his is what you're implying would need to happen. The Fury is an irrelevant discussion point on this.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Watchmen

[Ansem]

25 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

1) Would a new owner want to move a team out of Montreal? Well that would depend on MLS, since they could block/approve a sale depending on what they wanted. That's all of sports.

If no local groups are willing to keep in in Montreal, then yeah they'd move. Who in Quebec would pay hundreds of millions for a club losing up to $20M a year in a city unwilling to give them any of what Saputo has been asking for for years? Peladeau? Molson? 

 

27 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

2) Would CSA re-sanctioning of the club be required based on the sale to a new owner, even if the intention was to keep it in Montreal? I have no idea why they would, but his is what you're implying would need to happen. The Fury is an irrelevant discussion point on this.

Ultimately, CONCACAF can step in and refuse. This is above the CSA and doesn't stop at their level. Seeing who's president of CONCACAF, I wouldnt get my hopes up

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

People definitely seem to be forgetting that MLS is a single entity. Only reason for this topic to even come up as a talking point is that nothing concrete is happening on expansion right now after the Prairieland stadium deal unravelled in Saskatoon.

Wrong. Came up as a talking point thanks to a biased Toronto based Englishman on One Soccer, which gives 15% of its MLS content to CF Montreal, arguing it because he has zero sensitivity to the question. In line with the entire league so far. It's a huge fail from day one. But keep eyeballing your way into those deluded narratives you adore.

[Watchmen]

44 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Ultimately, CONCACAF can step in and refuse. This is above the CSA and doesn't stop at their level. Seeing who's president of CONCACAF, I wouldnt get my hopes up

This would kick in when the current sanction expires, not when the club is sold. Which has been my point all along.

[Watchmen]

47 minutes ago, Ansem said:

If no local groups are willing to keep in in Montreal, then yeah they'd move. Who in Quebec would pay hundreds of millions for a club losing up to $20M a year in a city unwilling to give them any of what Saputo has been asking for for years? Peladeau? Molson?

That's fine, and there's a discussion to be had on if there's a potential local buyer. It just has nothing to do with sanctioning.

But reminder, MLS owns 51% of the team. If they want the team there, Saputo has to sell to some local (or walk away). Now, do I think that's a likely outcome? No. Just that MLS can have more say on this than people realize, if they want to.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Watchmen

[Ansem]

36 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

That's fine, and there's a discussion to be had on if there's a potential local buyer. It just has nothing to do with sanctioning.

But reminder, MLS owns 51% of the team. If they want the team there, Saputo has to sell to some local (or walk away). Now, do I think that's a likely outcome? No. Just that MLS can have more say on this than people realize, if they want to.

Ultimately, there are rules regulating leagues that are FIFA sanctioned, MLS isn't above those rules so CONCACAF/FIFA has the last say on "sanctioning". 

If you want to argue that only MLS decides who plays where, sure but they aren't "forced" to sanction something that won't abide by their rules.

[Watchmen]

16 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Ultimately, there are rules regulating leagues that are FIFA sanctioned, MLS isn't above those rules so CONCACAF/FIFA has the last say on "sanctioning". 

If you want to argue that only MLS decides who plays where, sure but they aren't "forced" to sanction something that won't abide by their rules.

And CONCACAF has currently sanctioned Montreal. I don't know why you're arguing this point on this topic of discussion.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

And CONCACAF has currently sanctioned Montreal. I don't know why you're arguing this point on this topic of discussion.

You're trying to argue that MLS has somehow the final say. I'm telling you that ultimately, it's the confederation and FIFA that does, not MLS.

Yes, Montreal is fine now because at the time there was no Canadian league. This has changed in 2019, don't take for granted that nothing will ever change

[red card]

It would be best for new owners to leave Montreal. They're least valued team amongst all teams in the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL & MLS according to Sportico. Whitecaps are also at similar depths.

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

You're trying to argue that MLS has somehow the final say. I'm telling you that ultimately, it's the confederation and FIFA that does, not MLS.

Yes, Montreal is fine now because at the time there was no Canadian league. This has changed in 2019, don't take for granted that nothing will ever change

My argument is that the sale of the team is not what would trigger a review of the sanctioning. I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Let's kill two out of three Canadian clubs that are running genuine pro level academy systems because why exactly? How about having CanPL teams in Kelowna and Quebec City so both leagues can grow and thrive in a Canadian context and the footprint of pro soccer in Canada undergoes a genuine expansion?

As for the idea that FIFA has a genuine issue with Canadian clubs being part of MLS, why is the A League in Australia adding a second club in New Zealand from Auckland if that's the case?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/english-premier-league-club-linked-with-late-bid-for-new-auckland-a-league-franchise/TROUQSXYKFFDPKZNSXI4DZW5WU/

[phil03]

You know what? I for one do feel bad for TFC and the Whitecaps here: when someone grasps at straw at best and/or comes up with made-up facts/other numbers at worse to try to come up with scenarios that realize their hopes of MLS leaving Canada and/or with pretty ludicrous reasoning to pretend a CPL club has better ods against an MLS on in Can Championship then, in reality, its always Montréal. Like, I know that without a CPL club in Qc there is less risk of annoying fans of said club that would tune in and that the Impact very existence made the whole no club in Qc and the lack of bilingualism in the CPL more awkward then it would otherwise be but come on guys! Let's share the love

More seriously, OneSoccer is usually doing a good job but they have their blindsides and publish the occasional howlers, and good god that is one of them! The thing they are actually reporting on is the usual over-dramatic stuff that comes up when a club has a down season and people are actually invested.

The MLS, like any league that is focused on development, is working on cycles, and clubs that don't embrace that tend to hurt themselves more than others (*cough* TFC *cough*). MTL is at the beginning of their development so they aren't at the top of the table, simple as that.

There has never been a source close to the team or in media who has actual meaningful expertise covering it regularly and in detail that has spoken of relocalized it, not once. It has always just be Twitter, or at most utter outsiders, making noise. Moreover, and as mentioned above, the 20M numbers in term of yearly losses do not have any base whatsoever. The one actual number given was 10M over ten years by Saputo, and it is worth noting that a) it is unclear whether it includes the stadium costs, for which he got a stadium... and b) it was before he was able to make a pretty sizable chunk of that money back through the players sale.

Like, if you do believe the MLS teams should be forced to play in CPL or move that's fine. IMO you are utterly wrong but everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, that kind of rumor-mongering is simply disrespectful to a club that has done its utmost to build a collaborative relationship with the CPL. Has an Impact fan it is a point of pride that we have done so but I do expect better from CPL fans toward my team and as someone who is also an Athletico Ottawa guy, I do think that fans of my club and other CPL clubs should be better in that respect.

Edited October 5, 2023 by phil03

[narduch]

1 hour ago, red card said:

It would be best for new owners to leave Montreal. They're least valued team amongst all teams in the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL & MLS according to Sportico. Whitecaps are also at similar depths.

Have to wonder if MLS regrets giving franchises to both of them.

My guess is that when the league hits 32 teams their may be offers to sell to an American city.

[phil03]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

Have to wonder if MLS regrets giving franchises to both of them.

I doubt it tbh, the MLS is seeking to eventually grow into one of the world's top five leagues. Having full access to the Canadian market, which only having TFC wouldn't provide, is useful for that.

[Bison44]

Well you cant have it both ways eh?  If MLS outgrows the ownership groups in place in canada then your screwed and better hope there is another lower division you might be able to set up shop in.  I dont think that is seriously happening, even with jumps in GAM/TAM/FLIM FLAM garber bucks and overall cap increases.  But there has to be some middle ground where the CPL can operate below MLS and not be a farm team bus league. 

Also I dont get why all of the rumors out of Quebec have amounted to zilch.  Lots of local talent, their league seems to be going well, is there no rich potential owner/arena combo that will work anywhere??  

[Ansem]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Let's kill two out of three Canadian clubs that are running genuine pro level academy systems because why exactly? How about having CanPL teams in Kelowna and Quebec City so both leagues can grow and thrive in a Canadian context and the footprint of pro soccer in Canada undergoes a genuine expansion?

As for the idea that FIFA has a genuine issue with Canadian clubs being part of MLS, why is the A League in Australia adding a second club in New Zealand from Auckland if that's the case?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/english-premier-league-club-linked-with-late-bid-for-new-auckland-a-league-franchise/TROUQSXYKFFDPKZNSXI4DZW5WU/

Says the guy who wants CPL to be kept on a short leash and be a bus league.

New Zealand league, do you you even know how it works? It's made of teams qualifying to it from regional leagues (amateur). There's the regional phase (like our League 1s) and championship phase (like League 1 Canada made of top clubs from the regional leagues)

Obviously, it's far from what the A-League is.

[Ansem]

6 hours ago, phil03 said:

You know what? I for one do feel bad for TFC and the Whitecaps here: when someone grasps at straw at best and/or comes up with made-up facts/other numbers at worse to try to come up with scenarios that realize their hopes of MLS leaving Canada and/or with pretty ludicrous reasoning to pretend a CPL club has better ods against an MLS on in Can Championship then, in reality, its always Montréal. Like, I know that without a CPL club in Qc there is less risk of annoying fans of said club that would tune in and that the Impact very existence made the whole no club in Qc and the lack of bilingualism in the CPL more awkward then it would otherwise be but come on guys! Let's share the love

More seriously, OneSoccer is usually doing a good job but they have their blindsides and publish the occasional howlers, and good god that is one of them! The thing they are actually reporting on is the usual over-dramatic stuff that comes up when a club has a down season and people are actually invested.

The MLS, like any league that is focused on development, is working on cycles, and clubs that don't embrace that tend to hurt themselves more than others (*cough* TFC *cough*). MTL is at the beginning of their development so they aren't at the top of the table, simple as that.

There has never been a source close to the team or in media who has actual meaningful expertise covering it regularly and in detail that has spoken of relocalized it, not once. It has always just be Twitter, or at most utter outsiders, making noise. Moreover, and as mentioned above, the 20M numbers in term of yearly losses do not have any base whatsoever. The one actual number given was 10M over ten years by Saputo, and it is worth noting that a) it is unclear whether it includes the stadium costs, for which he got a stadium... and b) it was before he was able to make a pretty sizable chunk of that money back through the players sale.

Like, if you do believe the MLS teams should be forced to play in CPL or move that's fine. IMO you are utterly wrong but everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, that kind of rumor-mongering is simply disrespectful to a club that has done its utmost to build a collaborative relationship with the CPL. Has an Impact fan it is a point of pride that we have done so but I do expect better from CPL fans toward my team and as someone who is also an Athletico Ottawa guy, I do think that fans of my club and other CPL clubs should be better in that respect.

Maybe the club owner, leadership and staff should stop saying that the club is losing money whenever they get the chance if they don't want this kind of narrative to follow them around.

Just saying

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

Says the guy who wants CPL to be kept on a short leash and be a bus league...

^^^Normally I just ignore people who have consistently proven to be incapable of being respectful to other people's viewpoints on here, but sometimes outright distortions like this have to be responded to. As I have posted repeatedly previously, I would be delighted if the Forge, Atletico Ottawa, and Valour etc could draw 15,000+ regularly and could sustain a scale of operations comparable to MLS. At that point a Canada only league potentially makes sense in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. It isn't about what you want in life though it's about what's genuinely achievable.

That level of fan support hasn't happened for CanPL, and as far as I can see, is unlikely to ever happen. I strongly suspect, having been following this stuff for closing in on 40 years, that it would also be highly unlikely in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal in the absence of MLS teams in these markets. How do we keep pace with the Americans if we don't have domestic pro level teams operating at a comparable level to what they have? 

As things stand with CanPL, York 9, the Valour, Vancouver and Pacific are drawing crowds that are unlikely to make the current economic model sustainable. I would only prefer to see a bus league to having no league at all and from what I can see, there is a very real danger of the latter scenario happening if the league continues on its current trajectory. What happens, for example, if the Blue Bombers decide after this season finishes that they've had enough of running the Valour when York United are already under league ownership?

Musing about the Saputos moving their operations over to CanPL might be what needs to happen for Bob Young and Mediapro to keep the dream alive of future bumper profits for their ventures but I don't think it's what is genuinely best for Canadian soccer at this point. I would much rather hear about how they are going to get teams into Quebec City, Kitchener-Waterloo and London, Ont that would emulate the league's Halifax success story rather than this tilting at windmills stuff where MLS is concerned.

People in Vancouver clearly haven't been embracing the dark side in the sort of numbers that were anticipated, but people in Halifax have embraced CanPL in a big way. There are reasons to believe this league could be sustainable and be around for decades to come if the correct lessons are drawn from that at this point. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot