Canadian Premier League

[Alex D]

1 minute ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I'd just like to remind everyone that there's no such thing as objective reality, before someone comes and throws a wet blanket on this.

WE LIVE IN A POST-TRUTH ERA PEOPLE

Opinions are facts and facts are smear campaigns

[RS]

4 hours ago, dsqpr said:

There is certainly such a rule in England and I believe the rule is not limited to owning another football team based in England. In other words, if you own an English football team you cannot own any other football team anywhere else in the world.

Is this rule still in place? Stan Kroenke owns Arsenal and the Colorado Rapids. Then of course there's City Football Group which owns 4 or 5 clubs outside of the UK.

I'm sure there are other examples as well.

[Macksam]

2 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

I don't think anyone is doubting that.

To expand on @Keegans post. To me its plain and simple....there's no way the CPL becomes the #1 league in Canada without TFC, Whitecaps, and IMFC involvement (and not 2 teams). Absolutely no way.

 

The only way I see it possible is having those teams in the league or the CPL having teams in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal to pose a realistic and direct competition that provides legitimate (not major vs minor) options to locals.  

Oh I agree that the teams in those markets have to be their equals to have a shot. Or, the other option would be to do a 50 plus 1 ownership. Have a wealthy investor plus give the opportunity to the public to buy up to 50 percent of the ownership like NASL Chicago (although I think they're public ownership isn't going to be as big). I'd buy into that.

[-Hammer-]

6 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

If I am following this, BTBB has largely changed his argument many times over the course of this thread. I think his argument now boils down to "Rollins/Totera/McGrane are wrong in some way that validates my need to be right"

Really, not trying to be a jerk, but I do think that's what it comes down to

I think it more boils down to BTBB believes MLS and through them the USL is the only path for Canadian soccer to find success and truly believes that Canada's interests are better served taking this path.

Most of the rest of forum feels MLS and the USL don't do enough-pay enough Canadian players for that to ever happen and want our own league, like every other country on the planet.

[Kent]

9 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

TFC met Victor Montagliani about the new league that doesn't have a name yet and didn't hire Paul Beirne back in September...

You keep mentioning these two things. The league doesn't officially have a name and Paul wasn't hired by the league. Yet somehow, it never occurs to you that

1. These things do nothing to support anything you are saying.

and

2. It is entirely likely that Victor Montagliani doesn't want to officially announce the league before the launch announcement.

At this point they could still change the name of the league at the last minute if they suddenly got a better idea. The fact that he says the name sounds good to him tells me that the plan is likely to use that name, and he wants fans to continue to call it by that name.

As for Paul Beirne, he isn't going to want to say that Paul was hired by the league but please wait patiently for us to tell you when this league that exists already, actually starts to exist.

As has already been pointed out, the "swath" comment sounds like he is saying there are several (3+) ownership groups that hired him, and some (1+) that didn't hire him. It could very well mean that there are 6 or so teams that are in already that hired him, and he is trying to get the next wave of teams to join in.

While I am at it. You also love to bring up the "inclusive of MLS" line a lot. I have a different interpretation of that line. I think he could very well have meant that the two can live side by side. Like USSF could say that their D2 plans are inclusive of USL and NASL. A month or so ago if we had heard that, some people would possibly have interpreted that to mean USL will absorb the NASL teams into it.

[Kent]

4 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

Ha! This would be great. But I dare not create it. 

I created that CPL cities vote thread to filter some of this type of constant arguing away from this thread. I think it worked for a bit but ultimately it couldn't stop it from coming back. It seems BBTB has been unsuccessful in recruiting more believers because he is still the only one that voted for the USL teams in that thread. Maybe the votes would be different if it popped up today though.

[Macksam]

2 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Also on the topic of comparison.

I don't think its extreme or unrealistic to think the Canadian CPL players can match the quality of American MLS players. Its the international and marquee/designated players that make the difference.

Yes. I think when it comes to the domestic player, we can easily catch up.

32 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

I think it more boils down to BTBB believes MLS and through them the USL is the only path for Canadian soccer to find success and truly believes that Canada's interests are better served taking this path.

Most of the rest of forum feels MLS and the USL don't do enough-pay enough Canadian players for that to ever happen and want our own league, like every other country on the planet.

If I can add to that, sometimes we, especially I, have a hard time conveying what it is that we don't jive with when it comes to the MLS/USL route. 

With that in mind, it's pretty simple, and I think the whole forum will agree, we think cities like Hamilton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Saskatoon, Quebec City, Ottawa and KW for example have the capacity, which is the key word, to do much more than what the USL offers. When I mean much more, I'm talking attendance, quality of play, sponsorship, wages, etc. We know MLS isn't expanding here any further based on Garber's words so the best option is the CPL.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

You keep mentioning these two things. The league doesn't officially have a name and Paul wasn't hired by the league.

The league name thing is laughable. I mean, I roll around like a hysterical monkey every time I see this referenced. Is BBTB a business virgin? Has he ever witnessed a business launch before? Please, someone name me one business entity that ever acknowledged a venture name before its official announcement? Anything, from an NHL expansion team, to a new version of Windows, to the next Nintendo or Xbox video game console, even if there are leaks or rumours to what the name is going to be, nobody acknowledges the name as being true until it's officially announced. My God...

[Pat Carrasco]

It appears that the Hamilton Ti-Cat's owner and CPL pioneer hints at Canadian Premier League progress...Sad to say I can't access the Tweet.

 

 

[Complete Homer]

4 minutes ago, Pat Carrasco said:

It appears that the Hamilton Ti-Cat's owner and CPL pioneer hints at Canadian Premier League progress...Sad to say I can't access the Tweet.

 

 

Scott Mitchell wanted 100 scarves from BSB. BSB got them, tweeted at Scott Mitchell (who doesn't own the TiCats btw, he's the CEO)  that they are here and asked how they can help with the announcement. Mitchell said that "exciting things are happening" and for BSB to DM him

[zen]

7 hours ago, dsqpr said:

I am vehemently opposed to any kind of player loan arrangement with MLS as it would firmly establish CPL as secondary to MLS. And I look forward to the day when CPL will surpass MLS.

It will also allow MLS clubs to hoard talent because these players would not have to choose between MLS and playing regular first team football -- they could have both via a loan to CPL. Without the loan option some may choose CPL instead of MLS.

Two things. 1. CPL will never surpass MLS. And 2, loaning players doesn't make it inferior. Chelsea took Falcao on loan from Monaco, does that make Chelsea secondary to Monaco?

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, zen said:

Two things. 1. CPL will never surpass MLS. And 2, loaning players doesn't make it inferior. Chelsea took Falcao on loan from Monaco, does that make Chelsea secondary to Monaco?

Surpass MLS? No.

Within Canada? I wouldn't say never

[zen]

13 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Surpass MLS? No.

Within Canada? I wouldn't say never

Sure I get your point now But, most of the Salary Cap money comes from the American TV deal and attendance anyways, both of which are good. MLS is a juggernaut it's slow but it moving ahead. Some of the other posts in response to the post I was replying put it well.

11 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

The loan of a single player between two clubs, where players can go in either direction, is hardly the same thing as a "loan arrangement" between two leagues where players flow in only one direction!!!

I see what you're saying, but, I don't view loan arrangements like the one I suggested akin to the yoyo that reserve and affiliate teams are. Most loan agreements would be long term agreements, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of short term agreements. Additionally, I actually see a need to have all parties on the same page, and this in my opinion is more than satisfactory and a much better alternative to having a reserve team or affiliate or even teams with MLS ownership having minority stakes. I don't think this sort of of agreement would negatively affect perception of the league, as it would with actual reserve teams.

[Ansem]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

Sure I get your point now But, most of the Salary Cap money comes from the American TV deal and attendance anyways, both of which are good. MLS is a juggernaut it's slow but it moving ahead. Some of the other posts in response to the post I was replying put it well.

I think you're overestimating MLS...way too much. Juggernaut?

As for the future of DP...There's no out bidding China. They are throwing 30M £ at Diego Costa in his prime...per year and there's no sign they'll stop doing this.

[matty]

1 minute ago, dsqpr said:

I don't think you do see what I am saying. I am not concerned about the term of any loan arrangement; I am concerned about the direction of the player flow, because when players go in only one direction it is very clear that the recipient league is secondary to the one providing the players.

As for MLS reserve teams or MLS ownership in CPL, perish the thought!. You seem to imply that CPL must accept loans or MLS ownership. Why? I don't want either!! And CPL does not need either. In fact, accepting either is quite likely to fatally undermine CPL. It needs to start out standing tall as the #1 league in Canada and completely ignore MLS, which is not a Canadian league.

I personally like the idea of loans between the two as long as they have the ability to go both ways and don't yo-yo players back and forth. Loans should be allowed but they should not be abused.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

So nobody finds it interesting that the owner of K/W United is extremely rich and appears to be interested in having a team in the new league?

Don't see any rebuttals of Kurt Larson's article from Rollins, Totera and Rossi on twitter, so far.

[Complete Homer]

5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So nobody finds it interesting that the owner of K/W United is extremely rich and appears to be interested in having a team in the new league?

Don't see any rebuttals of Kurt Larson's article from Rollins, Totera and Rossi on twitter, so far.

1) Lots of people find it interesting, it is being discussed primarily within the CPL supporters tab. Buy a shirt and you can see it

2) I really don't see anything to rebutt

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Even when TFC say they would field a slightly rebranded reserve team? Six months ago we would have got something like this:

Boom! Seconds ago a source with CPL told me that no MLS reserve teams will be allowed no matter what they are called #CanPL

Where am I going with this? It's not safe to assume that Kurt Larson is wrong about TFC possibly having an involvement at launch in the mysterious premier league.

 

[Complete Homer]

54 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Even when TFC say they would field a slightly rebranded reserve team? Six months ago we would have got something like this:

Boom! Seconds ago a source with CPL told me that no MLS reserve teams will be allowed no matter what they are called #CanPL

Where am I going with this? It's not safe to assume that Kurt Larson is wrong about TFC possibly having an involvement at launch in the mysterious premier league.

 

Larson said that TFC would like to have a team, not that they have one set up. He explicitly says it is unknown what part TFC could play in the league. That does contradict what has been reported 

No one has been saying Larson is "wrong" (except for maybe the "PDL quality" tweet), they are saying you have not interpreted his articles properly. He's repeatedly reported that TFC has been disappointed by the lack of involvement TFC has had in the league. He's quoted Manning in saying that TFC has felt confident that they will still be allowed to participate in some capacity. None of that sounds like CPL is a USL division or is dependent on reserve sides to be stable, if that is still your current argument. 

If your only point is that an MLSE owned franchise could still come to exist in CPL... I don't think anyone is disagreeing. It definitely could! But you're reaching at straws if you're pointing to silence from Totera and Rollins (which you keep saying, despite Totera tweeting frequently about CPL and Rollins just appearing on the Loyal Company podcast to talk for 30 minutes about what the league looks like, along with frequent discussions on his own daily podcast) on a topic that they, along with several others, have already addressed

[Complete Homer]

On that topic, the Loyal Company interview should really be required listening

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/8/c/6/8c6de48f9b3b52b4/LCRV_Ep_90.mp3?c_id=13892130&expiration=1484651210&hwt=2601c9ff33f38ac28aeb988ee6cd01d7

Starts at about 21:00

Basically Rollins running through almost all he knows, drops some new stuff, and talks about where he's been getting his info from. 

Of note, sounds like he's been hearing some information about the Canadian quota that is a bit disappointing. Sounds like some of the owners are pushing for a requirement of 3-4 rosters spots, with no guarantee of playing time, to avoid driving up the price for domestics. The argument is that there will inevitably be more Canadians than that, but they don't want to be forced into overpaying Canadians. I get that, but personally, it's disappointing to hear, and I am someone who has been advocating for a lower quota than most. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Not much new in there. He mentions the CFL/NHL groups in Calgary and Winnipeg explicitly, but nothing about the Roughriders owners. Ottawa (not made fully clear whether they have to leave USL), Hamilton plus suburban Toronto interest also mentioned. But he slips in the caveat that nothing is 100% confirmed, so you are left wondering how solid any of his information is.

Have no doubt that those two western CFL groups have looked at it, the obvious question is why there is complete radio silence as to what's happening there in contrast to Hamilton. He talks up Saskatchewan, BC and Quebec for the launch but appears to have no idea who would be involved, so seems completely speculative. Come away with the impression that he is not fully in the loop.

Interesting snippet about the Oilers owners wanting MLS rather than the new Canadian league but talks down the prospect of it ever happening. Talks at length about CFL owners (presumably the Ticats) wanting a minimum of 3 or 4 Canadians as the quota on the roster with no guarantee of playing time, which seems to completely undermine the stated reasons for the league from a CSA standpoint being to provide more opportunities for Canadian players. If that bit is true I can understand why the CSA didn't sign off on this league in December and hand over the keys to the Ticats. Sounds like MLS reserve teams might be needed to provide significant Canadian content.

Snippet at the end about stadia in London, K/W and Vaughan being OK, which seemed a bit random. Left me wondering if that means there are groups from there wanting in, but he prefers to talk up the CFL-oriented scenario that he first talked about in his blog back in 2014. Overall, left with more questions than answers.

 

[shamrock]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

I think you're overestimating MLS...way too much. Juggernaut?

As for the future of DP...There's no out bidding China. They are throwing 30M £ at Diego Costa in his prime...per year and there's no sign they'll stop doing this.

Yet China is miles away from the US if you look at player development. Just like MLS is miles away from any Canadian initiative and will be for the near future (at least for a couple of decades). It took a long time but it's hard to argue MLS is not getting traction. Cities are basically fighting eachother to get in (at 100 mil, MLSE headquarters must regularly laugh when thinking about the 10 mil they paid to get in). 

[Alex D]

Interesting bit from that podcast:

Yes there are PDL teams involved in the CPL. However they will be paired up with billionaire money men and funtion only as the technical soccer side of the club. The example given was Winnipeg with true north sports. Also mentioned was a possible Hamilton and sigma relationship. 

The $1.5 million salary budgets were reasserted as well. 

After the D2 dust up down south and radio silence up north I was growing concerned about this leagues progress but recently leaked information has me more confident than ever. This will be more MLS than USL. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

I think you're overestimating MLS...way too much. Juggernaut?

As for the future of DP...There's no out bidding China. They are throwing 30M £ at Diego Costa in his prime...per year and there's no sign they'll stop doing this.

Actually, just to be precise, the Chinese government has come out saying they are concerned about spending for transfers and wages, with some rumours about trying to set up a system of financial fair-play. At least that is what I read, suppose in the Spanish version of this As article just a week ago:

http://en.as.com/en/2017/01/05/football/1483618683_270444.html

That suggests they are aware of their league going the erroneous way of the old NASL.

This is an interesting time for Chinese investment in football, if you look objectively there are Chinese owners in European leagues, but there also has to be a certain saturation at some point. Not everyone with money can invest in a modest team in a big Euro league. So it is logical to also invest at home, as if that could be the formula for investment. Thing is, as long as China struggles to make the WC (the teams are better, relatively in Asian club competitions), the profile of the nation will stay low. 

In any case, the transfer payments and wage offers are silly because they cannot be maintained, or paid for from club benefits. It all has to level off soon enough, as soon as the player getting 20 million a year proves to a poor investment.

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Of note, sounds like he's been hearing some information about the Canadian quota that is a bit disappointing. Sounds like some of the owners are pushing for a requirement of 3-4 rosters spots, with no guarantee of playing time, to avoid driving up the price for domestics. The argument is that there will inevitably be more Canadians than that, but they don't want to be forced into overpaying Canadians. I get that, but personally, it's disappointing to hear, and I am someone who has been advocating for a lower quota than most. 

Think that explains why Victor Montagliani made the strange comments on the MLS website about the league not having a name yet and Paul Beirne not being a league hire. Do the CPL guys not know anything about Canadian soccer history? Dominic Maestracci got absolutely slaughtered by portions of the wider soccer community that follow the CMNT (including ironically enough Duane Rollins from what I remember, who was always vocal about TFC's treatment of CMNT players) for allowing TFC and the other MLS teams to have a quota of that size based on similar arguments and that was probably a significant part of why Victor Montagliani got the CSA presidency in his place. I don't think there is any way that Victor Montagliani is going to agree to a quota that almost exactly mirrors what MLS have, although I guess it can be argued that he could hand it off to his successor to take the blame at this point, if an announcement is made well after May.