Canadian Premier League

[Complete Homer]

7 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Hardcore??? It would simply be a policy, and not a controversial one. "No, sorry, we don't want to borrow any of your players but thanks for the offer."

And who would it alienate?

I was referring to this part: "I think the CPL should position itself as the #1 league in Canada, and distance itself from MLS as an "American" league"

I mean, best case would be a simple agreement to not bash each other's leagues or overtly market against each other. 

[Keegan]

3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I was meaning this part: "I think the CPL should position itself as the #1 league in Canada, and distance itself from MLS as an "American" league"

I mean, best case would be a simple agreement to not bash each other's leagues or overtly market against each other. 

I can't imagine them marketing against each other, even look at the NFL/CFL.. it's in the interests of the NFL that CFL stays around it gives aspiring football players somewhere to land if they don't make it.  If anything it'll be a rivalry unlike any seen in Canada/USA sports before.  Imagine an annual Super Cup where each league's fans got behind one team?  

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, Keegan said:

I can't imagine them marketing against each other, even look at the NFL/CFL.. it's in the interests of the NFL that CFL stays around it gives aspiring football players somewhere to land if they don't make it.  If anything it'll be a rivalry unlike any seen in Canada/USA sports before.  Imagine an annual Super Cup where each league's fans got behind one team?  

That would be great. Maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic about how MLSE's intents

[Complete Homer]

Just now, dsqpr said:

I was not suggesting any MLS bashing as that would be very unprofessional and counter productive. I was just suggesting marketing the league for what it will be: The CANADIAN PREMIER LEAGUE. And by "distancing itself from MLS" I simply meant not entering into any agreements or negotiations with MLS. Just let it be and do its own thing.

That would simply be branding policy and I don't see why it should alienate anyone.

I think I just read more into that sentence than was intended

[Keegan]

Just now, dsqpr said:

I do not agree with that so I guess we can just agree to disagree on that point.

With that said, I think at least two of those cities could support two teams and as the CPL grows in popularity, the CPL team could surpass the MLS one.

I'll agree with you that they could host two teams in two if not all three cities.

But the question becomes.. when Montreal has names like Drogba and Piatti who is the CPL team going to have that makes them "bigger"?  What competitions are they going to compete to win that makes them larger?  Will a Toronto team even spend 1/4 of TFC's outlay and will they have a stadium even half the size?  Which teams will benefit more from TV $? 

Maybe a team in Vancouver would have a shot?  To be honest, I don't have a great grasp on their popularity but they definitely have a ton of holes in their club that could be exploited by a new rival, namely: a concrete pitch that makes for poor viewing, no "star" names and no local (BC) talent.  Even then though, this is a team with decades of history.. pretty tough to catch them but a CPL team probably could attract a player like Lee Young-Pyo.  

[matty]

1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

I think Matty & BBTB should bet a beer on it, wait for the league announcement to see who's closer (leave it up to a 3rd party to adjudicate ... I volunteer @shermanator just because), and be done with the un-Merry-go-round. 

Are we betting on tfc 2 being allowed in or on if it kills the league?

[matty]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

And, to point this out yet again. The parting shots are not necessary here. The argument needs to be dropped from both sides. Go have a beer or something.

As soon as i can I'm having one or two or five. Today has been a pain......for reasons not related to bbtb

[rob.notenboom]

13 minutes ago, matty said:

Are we betting on tfc 2 being allowed in or on if it kills the league?

I honestly have no idea. I thought I could sum it up by saying 1) A version of the league where MLS & USL are important partners with stakes in teams 2) A version of the league where there is little or no MLS/USL involvement. But I don't even know if that summarizes things. 

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, dsqpr said:

I think we should have a poll!

Ha! This would be great. But I dare not create it. 

[matty]

4 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

I honestly have no idea. I thought I could sum it up by saying 1) A version of the league where MLS & USL are important partners with stakes in teams 2) A version of the league where there is little or no MLS/USL involvement. But I don't even know if that summarizes things. 

I'd say my version is more mls as cpl's best bud rather than big brother

[Keegan]

29 minutes ago, matty said:

Are we betting on tfc 2 being allowed in or on if it kills the league?

I don't see how adding TFC II could even be an option

The first and most obvious reason is that TFC II would affirm the position that CPL is the AHL.. disaster.  Second, TFC II doesn't draw many fans as is and has little growth potential in terms of support.  Third, the team has no potential.. where is it going?  They won't be able to qualify for the Champions League or any potential Super Cup with MLS.  

The only reason I think you'd want TFC II was a team that was consistently high standard and sending the next MLS superstars to the league yearly.  Even then, it wouldn't seem worth it.  As things stand the team really isn't that good.  

Teams in Brampton (soccer capital of Canada), Mississauga (in partnership with Sigma) and Hamilton - for obvious reasons is my hope and with that there really is no room for TFC II.  

Keeping the reserve teams out of this league is also an advantage for our owners. A loan for a young TFC player to one of these nearby first teams would be a dream come true for the club and in all likelihood CPL clubs could loan these players on the cheap side, creating a win-win.  

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, Keegan said:

If the CPL ever became the #1 league in Canada it would have to be because TFC, Vancouver, Montreal jumped to it.  Otherwise it's really not even up for discussion.  That's like expecting the CHL to pass the NHL.  

If there is a North American league that can be challenged in Canada,  MLS is that league. I also don't think the CHL to CPL comparison fits, from what we know at this point at the very least. 

If the CPL gains significant traction in their markets, both Canadian TV money and sponsorship could easily surpass MLS' over here. 

[dyslexic nam]

I think the number of squabbles show just how desperately we need a concrete announcement so we can all get back to the Canadian footy love-in.

[Shway]

14 minutes ago, Macksam said:

If there is a North American league that can be challenged in Canada,  MLS is that league. I also don't think the CHL to CPL comparison fits, from what we know at this point at the very least. 

If the CPL gains significant traction in their markets, both Canadian TV money and sponsorship could easily surpass MLS' over here. 

I don't think anyone is doubting that.

To expand on @Keegans post. To me its plain and simple....there's no way the CPL becomes the #1 league in Canada without TFC, Whitecaps, and IMFC involvement (and not 2 teams). Absolutely no way.

 

The only way I see it possible is having those teams in the league or the CPL having teams in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal to pose a realistic and direct competition that provides legitimate (not major vs minor) options to locals.  

[Shway]

Also on the topic of comparison.

I don't think its extreme or unrealistic to think the Canadian CPL players can match the quality of American MLS players. Its the international and marquee/designated players that make the difference.

[Complete Homer]

Just now, Jahinho Guerro said:

Also on the topic of comparison.

I don't think its extreme or unrealistic to think the Canadian CPL players can match the quality of American MLS players. Its the international and marquee/designated players that make the difference.

I don't know. I think it is realistic to see CPL catching up to where MLS is now within a decade (minus 7 million dollar DPs), but where is MLS going to be then? Even just comparing the league to 2007 it has undergone a huge increase in quality that is not entirely because of DPs, I would not be surprised if the next 10 years showed similar growth for MLS

[Shway]

Just now, Complete Homer said:

I don't know. I think it is realistic to see CPL catching up to where MLS is now within a decade (minus 7 million dollar DPs), but where is MLS going to be then? Even just comparing the league to 2007 it has undergone a huge increase in quality that is not entirely because of DPs, I would not be surprised if the next 10 years showed similar growth for MLS

Players was the main comparison. With the MLS growing, so has the massive amount of  Canadian players playing in the American system whether thats the MLS/PDL/NASL/USL/NCAA/NPSL regardless of time, Canadians having been growing in accordance due to our integrated dependency. 

The MLS has grown rapidly in revenue and quality, but probably not as expected or as much on the domestic front. 

I feel if the CPL went with a CSL approach of 8 domestic players, 3 marque/international players (without the outrageous fees), it would start a good foundation that could be competitive, attractive and promote development.

 

[grasshopper1917]

I only recently started looking at North American soccer outside MLS and have been quietly following the debate regarding MSL involvement in the CPL.

From what I understand regarding everything I read the CPL hopes to have a league in major markets drawing 5000+ fans per game. This would put it in line with other quality North American Independent clubs playing (non MLS) professional soccer.

So a couple points.

1) Allowing reserve teams or #2 teams would leave you with attendance and a quality of play well below what this league is being portrayed as. If we look at the reserve teams in the USL they are almost all down near the bottom of attendance with a few even under 1000 a game. The average draw of reserve teams is well under 2000 and there is no reason to expect that would be different if they formed in the CPL. I may be missing something but basically a reserve club would in no way shape or form meet the quality and size CPL is trying to achieve. I cant see how anyone could see it differently?

2) It makes sense for a new league to work with the MLS in some capacity. MLS is active in only 3 markets and from what I understand has no desire to expand further in Canada. From MLS viewpoint any league that would help increase the popularity of soccer in Canada is a positive for MLS in terms of merchandise sales and increased TV ratings. For the CPL it would make sense because they can burrow on some of MLS marketing and operations experience. Friendlies between MLS and CPL teams could also be alot of fun and be some nice drawing games for the CPL.

3) I think realistically the CPL could work with MLS on a some capacity in terms of accepting loaned players. I mean clubs worldwide loan players out and accept players all the time. I think the key is it cant be in a capacity as a reserve team or minor league club. In other words maybe one or 2 loans a year - not 'sending layers down and calling them up'.

4) This may be far fetched and really stretching it considering the CPL does not exist BUT if MLS does want reserve teams in the CPL I think it would have to be in a second division (below the CPL). To be honest in time USL is going to have to look at moving all the reserve teams to a 'second division'. Just looks bad when you have a Sacramento and Cincinnati drawing over 10,000 a game and then a pile of reserve teams that cant pull 1000 people in the stand most nights. Hurts the reputation of the league..... badly in my opinion.

 

 

 

[dyslexic nam]

16 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I don't know. I think it is realistic to see CPL catching up to where MLS is now within a decade (minus 7 million dollar DPs), but where is MLS going to be then? Even just comparing the league to 2007 it has undergone a huge increase in quality that is not entirely because of DPs, I would not be surprised if the next 10 years showed similar growth for MLS

Yeah, I am pro-CPL, but I am far from anti-MLS, and I see no reason why the league won't continue to grow in quality.  I will defend the kind of steady, gradual growth in quality Garber has overseen to any MLS detractors, and if management continues its measured approach and the fan base keeps expanding, there is no reason it won't continue to get stronger.  And while it won't benefit CPL, I think it is good for Canadian players to have direct, domestic (in some cases) access to a league that will likely be the top league in North America at some point (with no evidence whatsoever, I think it will outpace the Mexican league pretty quickly).  Better for our player pool to have a 'diversified portfolio' of opportunities ahead of them.  Hell, if one wants to be a bit blue-sky about it all, with the money in the US, and their self-perceived entitlement to be absolutely awesome at everything (and an annoying tendency to accomplish it some of the time), there is a chance that MLS could grow to be one of the stronger global leagues at some point.  At the end of the day, players determine league quality, and they follow the money - which US sports tend to have a lot of.  Looking out 20 years, the league may be a lot stronger than some folks predict.  And in the grand scheme of Canadian footy, it could be significant that we have secured 3 strong franchises in a league with the kind of high ceiling.

Now, none of that means that CPL can't also grow into a strong healthy league that is great for Canadian footy.  With a strong launch, a solid ownership group, and a good plan for Incremental growth, there is no reason why we can't 'roll our own'. And it too could become a very respectable, strong domestic league.  But I do have a hard time believing the Halifax Wanderers and going to someday be able to routinely crush the LA Galaxy.  

But that is okay, because we have 3 other MLS clubs that just might.

[dyslexic nam]

Glitch

[dyslexic nam]

Was going to say - Grasshopper, I agree with pretty much what you wrote.  Some cooperation and interaction would be good, but no 2nd tier status embedded in any explicit relationship.  Just 2 leagues that interact, even if CPL is on the receiving end of loan arrangements.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

To expand on @Keegans post. To me its plain and simple....there's no way the CPL becomes the #1 league in Canada without TFC, Whitecaps, and IMFC involvement (and not 2 teams). Absolutely no way.

I beg to differ on this. Those 3 teams draws locally and have terrible TV ratings unless they are in a playoff or playing each other. If CPL can put a team or 2 in every provinces than it can totally happen. I doubt Montreal draws from Eastern Canada, TFC from the rest of Ontario or the Whitecaps from the whole west...It's a proven fact that their success is very local centric and gate driven

however, Saskatchewan is more likey to rally behind a Regina team, Manitoba behind Winnipeg, hell the whole province of Quebec will rally behind Quebec City in a heartbeat, Maritimes behind Halifax and other cities and so on.

The possibility of CPL beating MLS in TV ratings in Canada is very real. I know my home and I will keep repeating it... No one cares about Montreal Impact outside of Montreal Island. Their TV rating are bad except when they play TFC, playoffs games and Champions League. MLS is a hard league to relate too, hence being popular at a local scale and especially, more so at the gates than anything else. You'll hear the same comment from most people and morning sports radio, "They love the stadium atmosphere and being at a game, but they don't care to follow it". MLS as a whole and the teams hasn't given much reason to do so...why? Serious lack of domestic and local content. I loved the playoffs run but it hit me that there weren't more than 2 or 3 Canadians at a time on the pitch...

For me MLS is an American show, filled with American players and Internationals, made for Americans but with Canadian City names. Vancouver is now the most Canadian team if you look at their roster. This criticism is what you hear often in Montreal

1 hour ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

The only way I see it possible is having those teams in the league or the CPL having teams in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal to pose a realistic and direct competition that provides legitimate (not major vs minor) options to locals.  

Yes, the 3 cities will be absolutely necessary to reach the next level. Those cities are big enough for 2 clubs. I already demonstrated how Montreal could have a CPL franchise and how a downtown venue, rivalry with Quebec City and deep pocket owners could make it work. I don't know Vancouver well enough but heard Surrey could fly.

I think CPL should start with going where MLS is absent Once that's done attack the main 3 cities immediate suburbs. If that works, go for the main 3

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

I'd just like to remind everyone that there's no such thing as objective reality, before someone comes and throws a wet blanket on this.

WE LIVE IN A POST-TRUTH ERA PEOPLE

[Alex D]

MLS will try to cement their position by out-spending, but that's fine, everyone loves an underdog. The CPL can find a niche. The rivalries created may take soccer in Canada to higher heights than MLS could on it's own. 

[grande]

Saw this on reddit. Not sure who've they got, but maybe some actual news soon?

Edit: Oh, checked the rest of their twitter feed... Looks like they'll have Rollins on their podcast. So... maybe not any new info. We'll see, fingers crossed.