Canadian Premier League

[Tigers]

How would you guys feel if it started that low, but increased at a player player year until say 50-60% of the roster?

[BCM]

52 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Actually, just to be precise, the Chinese government has come out saying they are concerned about spending for transfers and wages, with some rumours about trying to set up a system of financial fair-play. At least that is what I read, suppose in the Spanish version of this As article just a week ago:

http://en.as.com/en/2017/01/05/football/1483618683_270444.html

That suggests they are aware of their league going the erroneous way of the old NASL.

This is an interesting time for Chinese investment in football, if you look objectively there are Chinese owners in European leagues, but there also has to be a certain saturation at some point. Not everyone with money can invest in a modest team in a big Euro league. So it is logical to also invest at home, as if that could be the formula for investment. Thing is, as long as China struggles to make the WC (the teams are better, relatively in Asian club competitions), the profile of the nation will stay low. 

In any case, the transfer payments and wage offers are silly because they cannot be maintained, or paid for from club benefits. It all has to level off soon enough, as soon as the player getting 20 million a year proves to a poor investment.

 

The bigger worry is not really football related but (1) football teams are used to launder very dirty money; and (2) ostentatious spending is now frowned upon as it, well, is a symbol of corruption. President Xi's main agenda is (on its face) anti-corruption and the apparent coming crackdown on football is well within this sphere.

[Rheo]

3 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

On that topic, the Loyal Company interview should really be required listening

 

 

Crap wish I had seen this before work and grabbed it.  Thanks for the heads up.

[dyslexic nam]

38 minutes ago, Tigers said:

How would you guys feel if it started that low, but increased at a player player year until say 50-60% of the roster?

Voyaguer-me would not be pleased.   But the pragmatist in me might grudgingly accept this idea - as long as the increase was entrenched in the constitutional documents of the league (ie. not something that could be easily ignored/overturned once they started getting bums in seats).  No one can lose sight of the fact that one purpose of this league is to develop Canadian talent - adopting roster rules that allow teams to be populated by cheap US and Central/South American journeymen would do nothing to advance that goal.

To be clear, the only reason I would accept it is that it would, to me, indicate that they are aiming at a fairly high level of play right out of the gates.  If they were going for something mundane, there would likely be enough elite Canadian youth players to populate the teams with a higher quota.  But if they push for lower quotas immediately, hopefully it means they envision a level of play that can't be supported by existing Canadian pros and elite youth at the outset.  And that, to me, may be a victory in the long term, even if the immediate roster rules aren't something to get randy about.  Because the league will have to balance the two objectives of developing our talent, and of delivering an on-field product that generates a league-sustaining level of fan support.

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, Tigers said:

How would you guys feel if it started that low, but increased at a player player year until say 50-60% of the roster?

See no reason why it can't be that from the outset given you could easily still field a mainly non-Canadian starting XI for every single game with that percentage and think the stated goal of 75% mentioned in the podcast was the right one. What's the point of doing this national league thing if it isn't going to be first and foremost for domestic Canadian players in an Australian A League sort of way?

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, shamrock said:

Yet China is miles away from the US if you look at player development.

Is that so... They seem pretty serious to me. With everything they are throwing at soccer, I expect them to close the gap sooner rather than later.

http://www.tsn.ca/china-plans-to-develop-into-soccer-powerhouse-1.470070

 <China has announced an ambitious football development plan that envisions 50 million players joining in the game by the end of the decade and the transformation of the country into a "first-rate major footballing power" by the middle of the century.

China will put into service 70,000 soccer pitches, including those newly built and others refurbished, according to a lengthy document released late Monday by the Chinese Football Association.

The initiative especially targets long-neglected youth programs, with more than 30 million primary and secondary schools to play regularly, and the training of 10,000 coaches. It would also more than double the number of specialized academies to 20,000.

The plan is to be rolled out in three stages, with the short term goals set for 2020, midterm for 2030 and long-term for 2050.>

2 hours ago, shamrock said:

Just like MLS is miles away from any Canadian initiative and will be for the near future (at least for a couple of decades).

Again with the miles away. They are ahead but not miles away. Klinsmann could barely hide how little he thought of MLS talent and the US might not even make Russia.

2 hours ago, shamrock said:

It took a long time but it's hard to argue MLS is not getting traction.

I'm not saying that MLS isn't getting traction, I'm saying that some people here are massively overrating it. I see it for what it is without "glorifying" it like some people do. They aren't even #2 in CONCACAF, I'd say Costa Rica league has a higher level of play.

2 hours ago, shamrock said:

Cities are basically fighting eachother to get in (at 100 mil, MLSE headquarters must regularly laugh when thinking about the 10 mil they paid to get in). 

Yes business-wise they have came a long way.

Bottom line is I was being "Canada-centric". I'm not really concern about what's going on south of the border. No one including me is saying that China or CPL will start/play at MLS level, I just shake my head at people thinking that the gap can't be narrowed. That's all I'm arguing, over time CPL will narrow the gap. Matching or surpassing it? I don't know... Narrowing the gap? Absolutely

 

[matty]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

....I'm not saying that MLS isn't getting traction, I'm saying that some people here are massively overrating it. I see it for what it is without "glorifying" it like some people do. They aren't even #2 in CONCACAF, I'd say Costa Rica league has a higher level of play.

I agree with you on China, I was going to post something similar but you beat me to it, but come on man. This has been argued before and it's just not true. Costa Rica has THREE teams that are dominate and could keep up with MLS and nearly a dozen others that a well below MLS.

[matty]

1 hour ago, Tigers said:

How would you guys feel if it started that low, but increased at a player player year until say 50-60% of the roster?

I think 50~% should be the starting number for Canadians on rosters. 12 of 25 seems doable with 6 teams. If it's 3 or 4 the league will be doing the minimum it can and will also lose some of its appeal. I get that Canadian talent might not be the best and how one could be worried about having a weak on field product but this league would almost certainly be given a grace period by casual Canadian fans if they knew half of the players are Canadians and the goal of the league is to make Canadian soccer better.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, matty said:

Costa Rica has THREE teams that are dominate and could keep up with MLS and nearly a dozen others that a well below MLS.

True, they have 3 powerhouse that can play neck to neck with Mexican Clubs. The middle table comes close sometimes depending on the season and their bottom table usually gets beat but they have pro/rel so their second division could be much weaker than the first.

The bottom teams stats can be misleading. It's not because they can't beat the top teams that it means they play poorly. They are some blowout games but they usually lose by not that much. It means they can compete and keep up with a superior team throughout the season at a higher level of play. Their ranking doesn't mean that MLS teams would squash them, it means that MLS teams could have a better shot at beating those teams than Saprissa or Herediano, but it might still be hard for said MLS team.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, matty said:

I think 50~% should be the starting number for Canadians on rosters. 12 of 25 seems doable with 6 teams. If it's 3 or 4 the league will be doing the minimum it can and will also lose some of its appeal. I get that Canadian talent might not be the best and how one could be worried about having a weak on field product but this league would almost certainly be given a grace period by casual Canadian fans if they knew half of the players are Canadians and the goal of the league is to make Canadian soccer better.

I'd expect guys like Jordan Hamilton who could start in MLS to be on loan to CPL. Better environment for him to properly develop than be on bench in MLS or USL. He needs to play lots of minutes at the highest level possible.

[matty]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

I'd expect guys like Jordan Hamilton who could start in MLS to be on loan to CPL. Better environment for him to properly develop than be on bench in MLS or USL. He needs to play lots of minutes at the highest level possible.

I'd like to see guys get loaned in but I'd also like to see some L1O guys get a chance to play at a higher level even off the bench. I think there should be something in place the secure Canadians, at least, 3 starters and a 5-2 ratio on the bench.

[zen]

8 hours ago, dsqpr said:

I don't think you do see what I am saying. I am not concerned about the term of any loan arrangement; I am concerned about the direction of the player flow, because when players go in only one direction it is very clear that the recipient league is secondary to the one providing the players.

As for MLS reserve teams or MLS ownership in CPL, perish the thought! You seem to imply that CPL must accept loans or MLS ownership. Why? I don't want either!! And CPL does not need either. In fact, accepting either is quite likely to fatally undermine CPL. It needs to start out standing tall as the #1 league in Canada and completely ignore MLS, which is not a Canadian league.

I do understand, I just dont agree with how you perceive it, and I believe most people would agree with me in regards to loans.

I was also saying that, I dont want reserve teams in the league, but i want stakeholder in Canadian soccer on the same page. A loan agreement while not necessary for CPL, would achieve that. You want to ignore the MLS teams, I and most others here don't want that, excluding groups of stakeholders is one of the reasons Canadian soccer is a mess right now.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

I was also saying that, I dont want reserve teams in the league, but i want stakeholder in Canadian soccer kn the same page.

TFC made it clear that they don't want to be on the same page, they want to be above CPL by putting their reserve team in the league while you have Gerber publicly taking cheap shots at the league calling it inferior/lower. With that attitude, I wouldn't make special deals with them. MLS should be treated like every other leagues on the planet when it comes to loans and transfers.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

TFC made it clear that they don't want to be on the same page, they want to be above CPL by putting their reserve team in the league while you have Gerber publicly taking cheap shots at the league calling it inferior/lower. With that attitude, I wouldn't make special deals with them. MLS should be treated like every other leagues on the planet when it comes to loans and transfers.

The Kurt Larson argument last summer was that TFC have really pushed the Academy and USL team pathway very hard and have sunk a lot of money into it and that contribution to player development in Canada deserves to be recognized and makes them a natural for any new Canadian domestic pro league that has a strong focus on domestic Canadian players, which at the outset of the process was the stated goal where the CSA was concerned. 

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The Kurt Larson argument last summer was that TFC have really pushed the Academy and USL team pathway very hard and have sunk a lot of money into it and that contribution to player development in Canada deserves to be recognized and makes them a natural for any new Canadian domestic pro league that has a strong focus on domestic Canadian players, which at the outset of the process was the stated goal where the CSA was concerned. 

A better solution would be to cooperate with CPL to create a D2 in Canada so both leagues can put their reserve teams in smaller markets like Kingston, Sherbrooke, Kelowna, etc..a  type of "AHL" structure while allowing D3 to promote in it.

A reserve league in CPL is not the way to do it.

[jedinathan]

6 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

On that topic, the Loyal Company interview should really be required listening

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/8/c/6/8c6de48f9b3b52b4/LCRV_Ep_90.mp3?c_id=13892130&expiration=1484651210&hwt=2601c9ff33f38ac28aeb988ee6cd01d7

Starts at about 21:00

Basically Rollins running through almost all he knows, drops some new stuff, and talks about where he's been getting his info from. 

Of note, sounds like he's been hearing some information about the Canadian quota that is a bit disappointing. Sounds like some of the owners are pushing for a requirement of 3-4 rosters spots, with no guarantee of playing time, to avoid driving up the price for domestics. The argument is that there will inevitably be more Canadians than that, but they don't want to be forced into overpaying Canadians. I get that, but personally, it's disappointing to hear, and I am someone who has been advocating for a lower quota than most. 

Appreciate the endorsement! We were damn excited to have Duane on... We've been in a bit of a cone of silence over here in Edmonton, so it was great to get the recap straight from one of the original sources.

 

Adam and I talked after we finished recording, and Duane's point about this league NOT being strictly developmental is important and a really good sign in my opinion. If it was strictly developmental or if that was the primary goal, then there would be no reason for players and clubs to progress. From the business model, the more competitive the league is and more the owners push for mainstream recognition, the better. Obviously us hardcores want the CSA to push the national team agenda more, but a Canadian league, regardless of required Canadian content, will only increase the quality of Canadian players overall. Like Duane said, its a by-product, but not the ultimate goal. I guess its important to think of this as a long term process, not a 5 year short term process.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, zen said:

I do understand, I just dont agree with how you perceive it, and I believe most people would agree with me in regards to loans.

I was also saying that, I dont want reserve teams in the league, but i want stakeholder in Canadian soccer on the same page. A loan agreement while not necessary for CPL, would achieve that. You want to ignore the MLS teams, I and most others here don't want that, excluding groups of stakeholders is one of the reasons Canadian soccer is a mess right now.

If the CPL needs financial help from MLS teams, then your proposed solution is better than MLS clubs having reserve teams in the league. For me it would be much more preferable though for there to not be any baked in rules about MLS being able to dump 8 players into CPL that they have no intention of playing.

However, if CPL doesn't need to us MLS as a financial crutch and MLS is treated like just any other league, the loans that happen between the leagues could be more natural. Say TFC wants to loan Jordan Hamilton to a CPL team so he gets more playing time and develops, and the CPL team wants to have Jordan on the team because he is good enough/the league is at a level where he can be a good contributor, that's fine. The hope would be that things would evolve and some day MLS reservists won't be good enough to be automatic starters in the CPL.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

3 minutes ago, jedinathan said:

Like Duane said, its a by-product, but not the ultimate goal. I guess its important to think of this as a long term process, not a 5 year short term process.

At the start of the podcast he was talking about how at the outset it was all motivated by the perception that the so called crumbs from the American system wouldn't propel the Canadian national team to another World Cup (which probably makes no sense now with 48 teams), which seemed to completely contradict the stuff at the end about having a very low quota with no guaranteed playing time and isn't it wonderful to have Danny Dichio in town thanks to TFC and MLS. Somewhere along the line it appears to have stopped being about trying to provide more opportunities for Canadian players to help the CMNT to become all about trying to supplant MLS as D1 probably by using a 2026 standalone hosting as rocket fuel at least as far as some of the investors are concerned.

[jedinathan]

14 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

At the start of the podcast he was talking about how at the outset it was all motivated by the perception that the so called crumbs from the American system wouldn't propel the Canadian national team to another World Cup (which probably makes no sense now with 48 teams), which seemed to completely contradict the stuff at the end about having a very low quota with no guaranteed playing time and isn't it wonderful to have Danny Dichio in town thanks to TFC and MLS. Somewhere along the line it appears to have stopped being about trying to provide more opportunities for Canadian players to help the CMNT to become all about trying to supplant MLS as D1 probably by using a 2026 standalone hosting as rocket fuel at least as far as some of the investors are concerned.

I think its fair for this to have shifted and changed over the literal years that its taken to get to this point. I get that there is a need for the owners to see the opportunity to (at some point) turn a profit, which means you will need some marquee players (like Beckham was for MLS) to attract mainstream attention. I think the fact that there will be domestic guidelines is fantastic, and the rumors of the eventual increasing of domestic player requirements is a good thing for this league. I honestly think its a good thing for mainstream sports fans to see this as a high quality, world recognized league rather than a perception of a minor league that supplies players to other leagues.

I'm trying to step out of my CanMNT fandom and think about this from an everyday sports fan, and what would interest me if I had little to know knowledge of the sport/development other than occasionally watching the world cup or euro leagues.

[matty]

15 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Somewhere along the line it appears to have stopped being about trying to provide more opportunities for Canadian players to help the CMNT to become all about trying to supplant MLS as D1 probably by using a 2026 standalone hosting as rocket fuel at least as far as some of the investors are concerned.

This one is a wait and see situation it seems. It's hard to believe the CSA and everyone involved is ok with only 3-4 guys as it doesn't grow the game and takes away a lot of the league's appeal but it's also fully possible there are investors that want to make sure the on field product is good enough to draw fans (which is fair). I did a poll a while back and a massive chunk of people here favoured a player quota of 30% if there was an increase every year or so because they felt it would achieve a strong enough on field product and help grow the poll and keep talent in shape. If it's 4 then it's about half of that, which is concerning, but I'm doubtful the number will be under 30% when the league is announced due to the goals of the CSA and likely some of the investors. It has been suggested before (by Tots I think) the goal is to increase the number steadily so if it is as low as 30% there's no reason to say it isn't going to help the MNT in the long run.

[dyslexic nam]

14 minutes ago, jedinathan said:

I think its fair for this to have shifted and changed over the literal years that its taken to get to this point. I get that there is a need for the owners to see the opportunity to (at some point) turn a profit, which means you will need some marquee players (like Beckham was for MLS) to attract mainstream attention. I think the fact that there will be domestic guidelines is fantastic, and the rumors of the eventual increasing of domestic player requirements is a good thing for this league. I honestly think its a good thing for mainstream sports fans to see this as a high quality, world recognized league rather than a perception of a minor league that supplies players to other leagues.

I'm trying to step out of my CanMNT fandom and think about this from an everyday sports fan, and what would interest me if I had little to know knowledge of the sport/development other than occasionally watching the world cup or euro leagues.

I don't even think you need to step out of fandom to be a supporter of this approach.  It is about immediate pay-off (in terms of dev opportunities) versus long term gain through dev of a strong league.  I prefer the latter model, and I don't have to set aside my fanboy persona to do it.  

If if we build a strong Canadian pro footy league, with reasonable player quotas, the rest will take care of itself. 

[MtlMario]

I find it hard to believe that a 6-8 team league to start off can't have a min.3 Cdn players on the field at all times.You still have 8 other players (higher quality to attract fans as they say). Are we that bad that if we have 3 Cdn players on the field at all times that people would not come to the games? And I'm sure these Cdn players wouldn't have million $ contracts.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Think we basically have already seen the CSA's reaction to the 3 to 4 player thing (i.e. no sanctioning in December when Rollins was 95% sure it was coming and the cosying up to MLS with Generation Adidas Canada), so I suspect there's no danger that is happening and the details of what the various possible stakeholders will agree to before signing the letters of intent that are needed are currently still being thrashed out through things like the meeting between TFC and the Ticats.

Just now, jedinathan said:

....I honestly think its a good thing for mainstream sports fans to see this as a high quality, world recognized league rather than a perception of a minor league that supplies players to other leagues....

Can certainly understand why some of the potential investors would want that perception, because of what it would do to franchise values. Thought Rollins explained very well why it wouldn't make much difference in many key markets that would need to be there for media reasons, so it was a bit weird listening to him because at some points he sounds like a wild enthusiast and then he flipped suddenly to being a gloomy realist.

[Ansem]

17 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

At the start of the podcast he was talking about how at the outset it was all motivated by the perception that the so called crumbs from the American system wouldn't propel the Canadian national team to another World Cup (which probably makes no sense now with 48 teams), which seemed to completely contradict the stuff at the end about having a very low quota with no guaranteed playing time and isn't it wonderful to have Danny Dichio in town thanks to TFC and MLS. Somewhere along the line it appears to have stopped being about trying to provide more opportunities for Canadian players to help the CMNT to become all about trying to supplant MLS as D1 probably by using a 2026 standalone hosting as rocket fuel at least as far as some of the investors are concerned.

Well, there obviously needs to be a balance. Those owners aren't idiotic morons. They did their homework and hired their own consultants.

• They must have first determined what kind of league they wanted to be..(developmental-USL, NASL Level or aim to be a Major League)
• Since it seems they opted for the Major League route, they must have had reports on the current pool of domestic players and came with a realistic number of how many of them could be good enough to fit that model
• If the number of players fit to play at the level they envisioned is below what the CSA wanted, for sure they will challenge it. If the product is poor, they won't be able to sell it on TV, merchandise, TV contracts, PR, let alone get people to go to the stadium.
• Their perceived inflexibility on starting quotas shows a clear emphasis on quality of the level of play which supports the claim they want nothing to do with MLS reserve teams.
• If a Canadian can play at that level, he's most likely to start as it would be a huge incentive to get Canadians interested in the league. They clearly don't want to be forced to start a Canadian player who's clearly not ready for the level they choose to set up the league which would downgrade the level of play.

Sure the CSA wants to develop players but the owners are the ones with the money and they want a return. A guarantee quota of players starting and a high overall quota of players would inevitably drive up the price for Canadian domestics, especially the good ones that you're trying to get home. The owners don't want to start paying Canadian Internationals like DPs and I understand their tactics to give them more leverage in negotiations. It's not like MLS is acting any differently as American domestics used to be severely underpaid in comparison to Internationals and DPs...(some still are)

The CSA can't achieve its objectives without conceding some points to the ownership who are really taking all the risks here. CPL is still a great opportunity for Canadian talents to land a spot but it shouldn't be handed to them because they are Canadian either. The work ethic and talent still needs to be there. Teams wants to start their best players available and it's up to our domestic players to earn that starting spot which they are still more likely to secure due to salary cap limiting how many internationals/DP you can bring in anyways. Canadians don't even make the MLS bench most of the time.

If the Canadian pool gets more talented, I don't see why the owners would opposed a quota increase.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I'll agree with you on them not being idiotic morons to the extent that if they could have got the 2026 World Cup as a standalone and associated infrastructure money and legacy funds then supplanting MLS could potentially have happened. Now it looks like MLS is always going to be the pinnacle and the CSA have been doing things of late that are consistent with that assessment.