loyola Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ok, I still have my doubts about this but for fun here what my starting 11 would look like: Hainault--Jakovic--Edgar--Kluka ------JDG---------Hutch----- Junior-------JDG2-----------Simpson ---------Occean----------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 In the meantime, we could conceivably still call him in for the February friendly. Tam played against Brazil when he was inelgible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFCRegina Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 As Jono was born in Canada, getting his passport/citizenship back should be no problem. The question is if he has to and is willing to give up any claims to Dutch status... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssk Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Technically, JdG2 should be eligible for dual citizenship (see the quote in my previous post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil7777 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Having JDG2 and potentially Hoilett in the CMNT lineup would simply boost this team to another level - a level that IMO should at least bring us to solid 3rd in Concacaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Yes you need a passport to play for a nation. Everyone is focused on article 16 which states which nations you can play for, but that is dependent on article 15 which states you need that nationality first then you can play for other nations. http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/09/75/14/fifa_statutes_072008_en.pdf (Page 62) I know of the story of Bircham, but not sure how he would have obtained a Canadian passport but it is passed down by ancestry. This is just speculation but Bircham’s father or mother could have applied for their Canadian passport and that enable Marc to obtain his Canadian passport as well. Where does it say that you need a passport to play for a country? I read it all and it says no such thing. If i read what it says on those pages, and from what i gather he is perfectly eligilble to still represent canada. Look i may be wrong, and i'm sure that there is some red tape, but i am yet to see a valid argument here. Granted, without a cnd passport, things can get complicated and extremely inconvenient. For example how do you travel to play in cuba on friday and then to canada on tuesday with a dutch passport? I think that there is some confusion here as to what a passport is and represents. You need citzenship to get a passport but you dont need passport to prove citizenship. And furthermore fifa uses the the more vague wording of nationality instead of citizenship. I strongly suspect, that the issue has nothing to do with meeting the fifa rules but rather travel with the team. He needs a passport as matter of avoiding serious travel complications. Ps.: do we even know that he actually renounced his canadian citizenship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrenaline11 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 However, it would also not surprise me if all this goes amounts to nothing. I don't disagree with your cautious approach. When Julian mentioned at the end there that Jonathan wanted Hoilett's number, I was thinking that maybe it was just a bit too ambitious to be true. I think it would've been good enough to get media attention if he just mentioned the info about his brother wanting to come play for us. I don't think it was necessary to talk about how wanted to lobby Hoillett as well knowing our human tendancies to want to fast forward everything in our heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 JDG2 would help us no doubt and so would Hoilett, but they'd help us improve in our strongest position (midfield). We still don't have a striker who scores in our system or a strong back four, so calling us 3rd best in CONCACRAP's a stretch. We would still need a miracle to qualify for Brazil let's not get too loopy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 JDG2 would help us no doubt and so would Hoilett, but they'd help us improve in our strongest position (midfield). We still don't have a striker who scores in our system or a strong back four, so calling us 3rd best in CONCACRAP's a stretch. We would still need a miracle to qualify for Brazil let's not get too loopy Who invited this guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil7777 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I would say that our midfielders are often having trouble feeding our strikers (lack of creativity, poor crosses, etc.). When you think about it, many of our strikers actually do well at the club level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 JDG2 would help us no doubt and so would Hoilett, but they'd help us improve in our strongest position (midfield). We still don't have a striker who scores in our system or a strong back four, so calling us 3rd best in CONCACRAP's a stretch. We would still need a miracle to qualify for Brazil let's not get too loopy I don't think our midfield is strong at all. We have two quality players in midfield, Simpson and Hutch, everyone else is average at best. With JDG and Hoilett that would bring us to 4 quality midfielders which would be a huge improvement. With 4 solid players who are able to pass the ball and have creativity, I think our strikers would score a lot more. Also 4 midfielders who also are a threat to score would open up the defence and give our strikers a lot more room. Ironically if JDG2 comes with Jr. that could end up costing his brother his starting job with the team. Personally I am not going to get too excited about this unless there is some confirmation that he did not renounce his Canadian citizenship to get Dutch citizenship, ie. that he is really only lacking a passport not citizenship. If he renounced his citizenship, unless the CSA has really good contact with immigration officials who are willing and able to bend/break the rules for an athlete, then it will take a long time for him to get it back at which point WCQ will certainly be over. And if it is not the case that he renounced his citizenship, why would CSA officials be talking with the government at all? If he just needed a passport and still has citizenship it would be a very simple and quick process for him to get it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finchster Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Where does it say that you need a passport to play for a country? I read it all and it says no such thing. If i read what it says on those pages, and from what i gather he is perfectly eligilble to still represent canada. Look i may be wrong, and i sure that there is some red tape, but i am yet to see a valid argument here. Granted, without a cnd passport, things can get complicated and extremely inconvenient. For exaple how do you travel to play in cuba on friday and then to canada on tuesday with a dutch passport. I think that there is some confusion here as to what a passport is and represents. You need cotizenship to get a passport but you dont need passport to prove citizenship. Nationality = passport. As others pointed out in a different thread in Europe people use passport as a synonym for citizenship. In an interview last year De Guzman stated he ‘gave up’ his Canadian passport and as others have pointed out he may have renounced his citizenship to obtain Dutch citizenship, making sense of the phrase ‘gave up my Canadian passport’. http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?982-Jonathan-de-Guzman-I-gave-up-my-Canadian-passport Jonathan de Guzman told Vancouver's TEAM 1040 Full Time Sports last night that he has given up his Canadian passport and that the idea of him playing for Canada is a "funny question" because he is no longer eligible to do so. As the guys on Full Time Sports put it: feel free to hope he'll eventually give up his Dutch citizenship. It doesn't look like he will anytime soon. When Jonathan was asked whether he would consider playing for Canada in the future, he said that he "doesn't think it's even possible" and added that "four or five years ago I gave up my Canadian passport." For good measure from the same article A source at the Canadian Soccer Association told Full Time Sports: "a player needs a valid Canadian passport in order to represent Canada at the international level." If you renounce your citizenship you aren't Canadian and can't play for Canada even if you were born here. And if it is not the case that he renounced his citizenship, why would CSA officials be talking with the government at all? If he just needed a passport and still has citizenship it would be a very simple and quick process for him to get it again. Correct, if he was a citizen the conversation would be "Hey Jono, fill out these forms and your passport will be to you in 4-6 weeks. Hell, let us pay for it and the extra fee to get it expedited to you.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shermanator Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Well let's see what happens before getting too excited (I imagine it's too late though for most). Would be great news if the 2 joined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I don't understand why JDG2 is worried about his chances to regain his Canadian passport? Giving up your Canadian passport, does that mean you lose your citizenship as well? If so, given the fact he's born in Canada, is there a problem regaining Canadian citizenship? To me, his case doesn't appear to be very complicated. Next round starts in 6 months and for a born-Canadian that's seems to be enough time to regain his Canadian passport. EDIT: Also, I just wanted to add that I find odd that we only heard he gave his Canadian passport, actually JDG never mentioned his brother did lose his Canadian citizenship as well. Even in the interview with TEAM 1040, JDG2 talks about giving up his Canadian passport but does not mention his citizenship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Nationality = passport. As others pointed out in a different thread in Europe people use passport as a synonym for citizenship. In an interview last year De Guzman stated he ‘gave up’ his Canadian passport and as others have pointed out he may have renounced his citizenship to obtain Dutch citizenship, making sense of the phrase ‘gave up my Canadian passport’. http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?982-Jonathan-de-Guzman-I-gave-up-my-Canadian-passport For good measure from the same article If you renounce your citizenship you aren't Canadian and can't play for Canada even if you were born here. No. Nationality <> passport. Most of us never got a passport until we needed it to travel abroad. There a thousands or maybe millions of canadians who never got a passport because they dont need it because they dont go abroad. That number was probably higher prior to the new rules requiring a passport to travel to the US or through out north america. Are you suggestng that i am not citizen until i get a passport? What about people with criminal records, you might have problems getting a passport with a criminal record but it doesnt mean you lose your nationality or cutizenship. Those rules that i read confirm the Bircham situation and how he was alowed to play for Canada meaning that Jono's hurdle is not FiFA but rather the travel conveniences. Maybe if he did, as grizzly suggests, renouce his canadian citizenship, he cant get it back so he cant get a passport and cant travel with the team. That could be a big hurdle. But its not and nothing to do with fifa eleigibility. From what i can read on you piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Furthermore. That quote from the CSA also makes sence because without a passport it makes it a real problem to travel with the team. Travel with the team is important. But it certainly does not invalidate what i said but confirms it. They want players to have a passport to avoid problems. So, to reiterate my undertanding, the issue is an internal canadian one and a matter of policy and rules. Nothing to do with fifa or the eligibility rules. From what i read in those rules, he could proably suit up to play for canada tmrw even in an official match. But traveling with the team from country to country even within North america? That looks to be the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 No. Nationality <> passport. Most of us never got a passport until we needed it to travel abroad. There a thousands or maybe millions of canadians who never got a passport because they dont need it because they dont go abroad. That number was probably higher prior to the new rules requiring a passport to travel to the US or through out north america. Are you suggestng that i am not citizen until i get a passport? Those rules that i read confirm the Bircham situation and how he was alowed to play for Canada meaning that Jono's hurdle is not FiFA but rather the travel conveniences. May if he did, as grizzly suggests, renouce his canadian citizenship, he cant get it back so he cant get a passport and cant travel with the team. That could be a big hurdle. But its not and nothing to do with fifa eleigibility. From what i can read on you piece. Very good point, that's what I tried to explain in my previous post but couldn't find the words. A passport is just an ID, it's not a way to gain or lose your citizenship. And as I mentioned before, nobody mentioned JDG2 lost his Canadian citizenship as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I don't disagree with your cautious approach. When Julian mentioned at the end there that Jonathan wanted Hoilett's number, I was thinking that maybe it was just a bit too ambitious to be true. I think it would've been good enough to get media attention if he just mentioned the info about his brother wanting to come play for us. I don't think it was necessary to talk about how wanted to lobby Hoillett as well knowing our human tendancies to want to fast forward everything in our heads. Once bitten, twice shy. On the other hand, if Hart's 'one or two others' actually are JDG2 and Hoilett, and the CSA has been working on this for awhile, they must have gotten to the point where they have found out whether or not the possibility exists to have JDG2 eligible ... gotta think you would reach that point in the process pretty early (anticipating upcoming CSA competence reply). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killgod Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 colour me shocked. that's just...wow. and my guess in response to people suggesting it's a publicity stunt to get capped by Holland, I would say it's more likely Holland has said to him...not in our plans. I think the CSA will be able to make this happen, even if it's shady, if they can find a way I'm sure they will. Perhaps Harper will find some ancient British rule still in effect and knight him or something making him Canadian again. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killgod Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Once bitten, twice shy. On the other hand, if Hart's 'one or two others' actually are JDG2 and Hoilett, and the CSA has been working on this for awhile, they must have gotten to the point where they have found out whether or not the possibility exists to have JDG2 eligible ... gotta think you would reach that point in the process pretty early (anticipating upcoming CSA competence reply). Absolutely, considering how often this question is asked I don't believe this is something new for JDG to go public with it. It could have been in the work for a while and the public is just being told now. I think some small possibility has to exist or JDG wouldn't be talking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 One things for sure, if Jonathan doesn't play for Canada soon he'll never play with his brother.. I'm sure that's weighing into his decision, I know it would for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 When you think about it, ... '86 wasn't that long ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killgod Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I have to really love at the end how they talk about jumping on board....for next round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 -------------------De Rosario--------------- Simpson---------De Guzman---------Hoilett ---------Hutchinson-----De Guzman--------- -De Jong----Klukowski---Edgar----Hainault- -------------------Borjan---------------------- = World Cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villus Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 One things for sure, if Jonathan doesn't play for Canada soon he'll never play with his brother.. I'm sure that's weighing into his decision, I know it would for me. Good point. Also all the discussion about the Dutch over the last few years I'm sure JDG2 has assesed the situation the same way we have and has decided to come into the CMNT fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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