CONCACAF's hosting monopoly

[gigi riva]

15 hours ago, Kent said:

@narduchposted this in the Nations League thread. I've updated the original post with yet another USA confirmed event. My fingers are crossed for a Canada vs Jamaica final, with El Salvador and Panama in the 3rd place game.

 

Man oh man that will be one hot , sticky  venue unless they have some sort of Central Air system in that Stadium . Vegas in the Summer months is  very very hot 

[RS]

6 hours ago, gigi riva said:

Man oh man that will be one hot , sticky  venue unless they have some sort of Central Air system in that Stadium . Vegas in the Summer months is  very very hot 

You think they built a $2 billion indoor stadium in Las Vegas and didn't put A/C in?!

[Kent]

Updated the original post with yet another competition that will be held in the USA. 2024 Nations League semi finals and finals will be held in USA. I would love it if somehow USA and Mexico get upset in their quarter finals.

[SoccMan]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Updated the original post with yet another competition that will be held in the USA. 2024 Nations League semi finals and finals will be held in USA. I would love it if somehow USA and Mexico get upset in their quarter finals.

We are barely hosting a World Cup in 2026 and had 3 cities pull out then one came back in, and the other city is putting up temporary stands on what is already an outdated stadium in BMO Field . These CONCACAF tournaments are going nowhere soon , they will be in the US for a long time .

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

We are barely hosting a World Cup in 2026 and had 3 cities pull out then one came back in, and the other city is putting up temporary stands on what is already an outdated stadium in BMO Field . These CONCACAF tournaments are going nowhere soon , they will be in the US for a long time .

This is all true.

What is also true is that we don't help ourselves. Nobody is forcing BMO to put up temporary stands. Why can't we do better? Instead of us complaining how the USA (and by demographic extension Mexico) are hosting regional tournaments in perpatuity, why not look in the mirror and do something about it? Too few people care enough and the result is too little pressure to do anything different.

It goes beyond soccer too. The outdoor stadia in this country is embarassing. Climate is not an excuse either when you see the stadia in Northern Europe. The common excuse I hear is that public funding is unpopular, but somehow this is particularly true in Canada compared to the rest of the developed world. Or, maybe we just can't match the private investment seen in other development countries. Surely it's a combination.

Perhaps I am preaching to the chioir here, but either way it's embarassing. BMO should be upgraded to 40K (if not 45k) and Montreal should have been a host with a new 40k stadium that could be used by CF Montreal afterwards (and/or the Allouettes). Vancouver is doing fine with their situation. The other major cities I won't both to nitpick, since they aren't major cities in a North American context. 

Bottom line: If we want better, we have to be better!

[RS]

There's no demand for better outdoor stadia in Canada. It's that simple.

The CFL doesn't need it/can't afford it and there aren't enough outdoor sports leagues/franchises/etc. that would require such infrastructure. BMO Field is the closest thing to it and MLSE has already pumped around $200 million into a stadium they don't actually own. Maybe Rogers Centre now that it's privately owned and Rogers is spending a ton to make it an actual baseball stadium rather than a multi-purpose concrete box.

You can't compare Canada to northern European countries because most of those are soccer crazy and prioritize building suitable facilities for the sport. It's like asking why does Canada have better hockey arenas than South America — the answer is obvious.

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, RS said:

There's no demand for better outdoor stadia in Canada. It's that simple.

The CFL doesn't need it/can't afford it and there aren't enough outdoor sports leagues/franchises/etc. that would require such infrastructure. BMO Field is the closest thing to it and MLSE has already pumped around $200 million into a stadium they don't actually own. Maybe Rogers Centre now that it's privately owned and Rogers is spending a ton to make it an actual baseball stadium rather than a multi-purpose concrete box.

You can't compare Canada to northern European countries because most of those are soccer crazy and prioritize building suitable facilities for the sport. It's like asking why does Canada have better hockey arenas than South America — the answer is obvious.

That's a pretty extreme comparison but point taken. I agree with you for the most part. No demand for better stadia is the same thing as me saying "too few people care enough".

The CFL have actually improved their stadia over the years (as you know). The stadiums in Regina, Winnipeg and Ottawa are all very good. BC place and Commonwealth are fine. Calgary and Montreal should do better. Toronto I guess would be inbetween. 

I can understand MLSE not pumping anymore into BMO when they don't own it. At the same time, it's still an excuse when you take a high level view of the situation, which is what I am doing. I am not exactly advocating for white elephants here.

BC Place is a very adequate venue for the World Cup. She's not perfect, but she'll certainly do. BMO field with temp seating? I mean come on. When we only have two venues and one is an average MLS stadium with temporary seating, that's shameful, no?

Again, I fully agree we collectively reap what we sow. At the same time, It is just so sad and unique that our biggest city cannot do better with the world watching.  It's equal parts upsetting and fascinating. What other developed country would you see such a thing?

[kacbru]

47 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Perhaps I am preaching to the chioir here, but either way it's embarassing. BMO should be upgraded to 40K (if not 45k) and Montreal should have been a host with a new 40k stadium that could be used by CF Montreal afterwards (and/or the Allouettes). Vancouver is doing fine with their situation. The other major cities I won't both to nitpick, since they aren't major cities in a North American context. 

This is the 30k seat covered stadium with grass in Dunedin (pop. ~130k).  Almost entirely funded through local government money, which was highly controversial.  Of course, the primary use is rugby. 

The key difference with Canada is that hockey gobbles up all of the public money for stadiums/arenas so it is no wonder there is little appetite from the public to fund more.  How obscene is it that the good citizens of Calgary are on the hook to the tune of $500M for the new Flames arena (or insert city name here)?  No wonder there is no public money for McMahon or Spruce Meadows or anything else.  Soccer is expected to be exclusively funded privately.

[RS]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

The CFL have actually improved their stadia over the years (as you know). The stadiums in Regina, Winnipeg and Ottawa are all very good. BC place and Commonwealth are fine. Calgary and Montreal should do better. Toronto I guess would be inbetween. 

Well, the various local governments that own those venues improved the CFL stadia over the years.

The CFL has been the biggest beneficiary of government infrastructure funding for professional sports in this country, bar none. Even the NHL arenas, outside of Alberta, were privately financed.

None of the nine current CFL venues are privately owned, and only one (BMO) was heavily funded by a private entity — and only because it was a soccer stadium first.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, kacbru said:

This is the 30k seat covered stadium with grass in Dunedin (pop. ~130k).  Almost entirely funded through local government money, which was highly controversial.  Of course, the primary use is rugby. 

The key difference with Canada is that hockey gobbles up all of the public money for stadiums/arenas so it is no wonder there is little appetite from the public to fund more.  How obscene is it that the good citizens of Calgary are on the hook to the tune of $500M for the new Flames arena (or insert city name here)?  No wonder there is no public money for McMahon or Spruce Meadows or anything else.  Soccer is expected to be exclusively funded privately.

Man what a venue that would be for any Canadian city - even a scaled down version for CPL. I bet Cavalry wouldn't have questions about CCL with such a venue

Thanks for this. Yes, no doubt Hockey gobbles up a ton of the public money. In NZ the same is true of Rugby I am sure, but as you demonstrate those nicely double as soccer venues.

The public funding is what it is, so I won't go there. However, I am curious to know if Canada has less, more, or comparable private funding for sport than similar countries like NZ, Australia, Sweden, etc. You (or anyone) know?

[SpursFlu]

We have terrible stadiums.. if we want better things in this country go talk to the stadium haters in Canada that seem to think building a sports stadiums will increase the amount of junkies sleeping in the park. Because when I see a new sports stadium  the first thing I think is... I should start doing drugs all day and stop participating in society

Edited November 14, 2023 by SpursFlu

[jonovision]

34 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

We have terrible stadiums.. 

Do we? I'd put at least a third of the CFL stadiums up against any of the stadiums in the Netherlands, for example. Maybe not for soccer, but I think this discussion has long moved past that point.

[Obinna]

https://worldofstadiums.com/europe/netherlands/

https://worldofstadiums.com/north-america/canada/

[kacbru]

48 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Man what a venue that would be for any Canadian city - even a scaled down version for CPL. I bet Cavalry wouldn't have questions about CCL with such a venue

Thanks for this. Yes, no doubt Hockey gobbles up a ton of the public money. In NZ the same is true of Rugby I am sure, but as you demonstrate those nicely double as soccer venues.

The public funding is what it is, so I won't go there. However, I am curious to know if Canada has less, more, or comparable private funding for sport than similar countries like NZ, Australia, Sweden, etc. You (or anyone) know?

I can't think of any private money that has gone into stadiums in NZ.

[jonovision]

1 hour ago, RS said:

Well, the various local governments that own those venues improved the CFL stadia over the years.

The CFL has been the biggest beneficiary of government infrastructure funding for professional sports in this country, bar none. Even the NHL arenas, outside of Alberta, were privately financed.

None of the nine current CFL venues are privately owned, and only one (BMO) was heavily funded by a private entity — and only because it was a soccer stadium first.

Winnipeg's was also partly government financed, plus receives favourable tax treatment, as I'm sure many others do.

[Kent]

This isn't just about Canada hosting. Right now I would take any other country getting something more than 1 or 2 Gold Cup group stage games. And besides, why does every game have to be in giant 60,000 seat stadiums? In 2004 the Euro Cup was hosted by Portugal, which had 3 stadiums with less than 30,000 capacity. Plenty of other stadiums in the low 30k range in the Euro Cup that year and other years since then as well. The 2022-23 UEFA Nations League Finals used 2 stadiums, one of which has a capacity of 30k. Same thing in 2018-19 as well.

Yes it's sad that we don't have big soccer stadiums. Yes it's sad that we aren't using the World Cup to get those stadiums. Yes it's sad that Canada has a huge game next week and demand is low enough that they aren't bothering to open the upper level at modestly sized BMO Field. But none of this should excuse CONCACAF from moving tournaments around a bit. 4 games for the Nations League finals could be hosted in any one of Canada, Mexico, Honduras, Costa Rica, Panama, El Salvador, and maybe others. Would it draw as many fans as games in USA? No. But that should be OK.

[jonovision]

I'd love to see an all-central America (non-Mexico) Gold Cup. Or all-Caribbean. Let's get weird.

Of course, would never happen. Need those Mexico games in American 90,000 seaters.

[SthMelbRed]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

Man what a venue that would be for any Canadian city - even a scaled down version for CPL. I bet Cavalry wouldn't have questions about CCL with such a venue

Thanks for this. Yes, no doubt Hockey gobbles up a ton of the public money. In NZ the same is true of Rugby I am sure, but as you demonstrate those nicely double as soccer venues.

The public funding is what it is, so I won't go there. However, I am curious to know if Canada has less, more, or comparable private funding for sport than similar countries like NZ, Australia, Sweden, etc. You (or anyone) know?

The stadium was built using public money in order to be a host venue for the 2011 Rugby World Cup.

[Obinna]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

This isn't just about Canada hosting. Right now I would take any other country getting something more than 1 or 2 Gold Cup group stage games. And besides, why does every game have to be in giant 60,000 seat stadiums? In 2004 the Euro Cup was hosted by Portugal, which had 3 stadiums with less than 30,000 capacity. Plenty of other stadiums in the low 30k range in the Euro Cup that year and other years since then as well. The 2022-23 UEFA Nations League Finals used 2 stadiums, one of which has a capacity of 30k. Same thing in 2018-19 as well.

Yes it's sad that we don't have big soccer stadiums. Yes it's sad that we aren't using the World Cup to get those stadiums. Yes it's sad that Canada has a huge game next week and demand is low enough that they aren't bothering to open the upper level at modestly sized BMO Field. But none of this should excuse CONCACAF from moving tournaments around a bit. 4 games for the Nations League finals could be hosted in any one of Canada, Mexico, Honduras, Costa Rica, Panama, El Salvador, and maybe others. Would it draw as many fans as games in USA? No. But that should be OK.

Some great points here Kent. Yes, in some cases the Gold Cup stadiums are 80% empty and they are MLS stadiums, not NFL stadiums. Some USL (or CPL...nudge nudge) venues are probably better for those matches. 

I wonder if CONCACAF make it harder to move the GOLD Cup harder to move around with each past edition. It's already played every two years, so if you are a Mexican or American, do you bother travelling to see your team play in Canada, or do you just wait for the next edition? Especially with these teams sending B teams often, it really devalues the tournament. Unless I was looking for an excuse to visit Canada anyways, I would probably just hang out stateside until the next tournament, if I were an American or Mexican fan (or Salvadorian, Honduran, etc.).

As for NL, I really did think they were supposed to rotate it, but maybe that was just a rumour or speculation I believed was true. Either way, that one would be easier to rotate, but so far they haven't. The fact they never even waited for the US to qualify just shows there is no intent to rotate. Moreover, there is no reason Toronto or Vancouver couldn't host it, or Mexico City, or Monterrey, or Panama City, etc. 

I think the status quo is tolerated because many central American nations have big populations in the USA (and growing) so they are never really away from home in a meaningful sense. Of all the major teams in this region, it is only Canada who plays "away" in Gold Cup (and now NL finals). I believe we had a pretty decent away crowd in Vegas, if I recall correctly, but it's also Vegas. I am not sure we get the same turn out in Dallas, but that's up to us fans to show our. If we don't who will?

[Kent]

7 hours ago, Obinna said:

I am not sure we get the same turn out in Dallas, but that's up to us fans to show our. If we don't who will?

This is why I was so disappointed in us only getting a crowd of 15,301 in the Gold Cup group stage game in Toronto in 2023. I wish there were enough fans to pack the stadium and send a message to CONCACAF. But instead, there were few enough fans to send a very different message to CONCACAF.

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

This is why I was so disappointed in us only getting a crowd of 15,301 in the Gold Cup group stage game in Toronto in 2023. I wish there were enough fans to pack the stadium and send a message to CONCACAF. But instead, there were few enough fans to send a very different message to CONCACAF.

We hosted a game in 2015 and got 16k attendance. I had to listen to 8 years of "we should get to host more, times have changed, we're way better now" and when we host again we get 15k.  I think that pretty much ended the debate on why we don't host.

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

We hosted a game in 2015 and got 16k attendance. I had to listen to 8 years of "we should get to host more, times have changed, we're way better now" and when we host again we get 15k.  I think that pretty much ended the debate on why we don't host.

I know circumstances are a form of excuse, but in 2015 I believe we played Costa Rica. In 2023 we played Guadeloupe, who are not even a member of FIFA. I wonder how the numbers would have looked if the opponents were flipped. 

[Watchmen]

18 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I know circumstances are a form of excuse, but in 2015 I believe we played Costa Rica. In 2023 we played Guadeloupe, who are not even a member of FIFA. I wonder how the numbers would have looked if the opponents were flipped. 

The best comparable from 2015 might be WC qualifying games vs Dominica (9k) and Belize (10k). So Costa Rica definitely drew more. And Costa Rica now probably would have done more than 15k. But I don't think 20-25k for a game involving the host nation would have been enough for CONCACAF to gamble moving the tournament here for a cycle.

[Watchmen]

32 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I know circumstances are a form of excuse, but in 2015 I believe we played Costa Rica. In 2023 we played Guadeloupe, who are not even a member of FIFA. I wonder how the numbers would have looked if the opponents were flipped. 

Additional: Canada played Costa Rica in Houston at the 2017 Gold Cup and it drew 12k. So, lower. But again probably not low enough to make CONCACAF reconsider.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

I know circumstances are a form of excuse, but in 2015 I believe we played Costa Rica. In 2023 we played Guadeloupe, who are not even a member of FIFA. I wonder how the numbers would have looked if the opponents were flipped. 

Further to that point. In 2015 it was actually a double header, with Jamaica vs El Salvador in game 1, and Canada vs Costa Rica in game 2. There were definitely a sizable amount of people wearing Jamaican and Salvadoran colours, likely not all of them would have come if it was just Canada vs Costa Rica. This year it was just a single game between Canada and Guadeloupe. Still as I mentioned before, we should do better.

 

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Additional: Canada played Costa Rica in Houston at the 2017 Gold Cup and it drew 12k. So, lower. But again probably not low enough to make CONCACAF reconsider.

Similar to the point above, the 12k for that game was for a double header. Canada vs Costa Rica in game 1 and Honduras vs French Guiana for game 2.