How long until....MLS to CPL

[Ansem]

12 hours ago, SoccMan said:

I rather Canadian players make an actual good living playing in the MLS than barely surviving in the CPL and having to retire at the ripe old age of 20 to 25 like a few have already done .  I don’t see CPL salaries rising substantially anytime soon. I would guess that a lot of us here are probably making more money than your average CPL player . Until CPL salaries match MLS salaries, I don’t see MLS Canadian teams joining anytime soon. Moreover, if they are forced to join by FIFA in the near future , the better Canadian players on these Canadian MLS teams will just go to America MLS teams where they can keep making decent money. The setup we have now is a good setup and a setup that produced players that got us to a World Cup .

The best Canadians will always play in foreign leagues (MLS or Europe). Having all our markets exclusively for our domestic league doesn't prevent that one bit. I WANT the better Canadians to play elsewhere with CPL being our domestic league.

CPL having no competitor domestically allows it to reach it's full potential faster which would also help with wages.

This doesn't mean the "end of MLS in Canada" - isn't that the whole point of a "Champions League"

-->MLS football without filler - who cares about Real Salt Lake or Sporting KC 🙄

--> Bring on the best MLS and Liga MX against our best!

There's a reason confederations aren't fans of cross-border leagues or Super League...why would people bother with Champions League if you get those match up weekly at league level? Takes the mystic out of the whole thing

Edited April 12, 2022 by Ansem

[SpursFlu]

47 minutes ago, narduch said:

Holy shit I'm glad I'm not the only one.

It's too many teams for a top flight soccer league.

I know it will never happen but if they are serious about being one of the top leagues in the world they need to trim down to 30 teams.

I barely know what's going on anymore. I use to know every player on Portland because it was a rival and I was watching the game on the weekend thinking who are these guys other than Chara. For me it all hurt feels so inconsequential. I was looking at the calendar and thinking the Valour game got me most excited 

[P-O]

I think canadian teams in the MLS was the key for us developping futbol, fans, coaches, players, academies, etc.

 

I am also glad some canadian players are playing top level in the MLS.

 

But on the other hand, if we ever want to become a relevant nation (talking about a domestic league) we will need our biggest players in playing in the CPL. Is this viable for now? No.

Maybe down the road, maybe not. But eventually money will flow into futbol with sponsors, TV, fans. The mosaik of canadian fans is really diverse from urban center as to where I live in rural Quebec. It has to start somewhere and we are doing really well all things considered. This world cup will help, so will the one presented in Canada.

 

If Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver sticks to the MLS forever, we are loosing our 3 biggest markets and we will be like the Welsh league forever. Imagine Rangers and Celtic going to the English federation. What would happen with scottish futbol?

 

I still haven't had the chance to see a CPL. I live 10h away from the closest team. I know it's not an excuse as I was in Toronto for the Jamaica game, but right now it is hard for me to identify to the CPL as there are no teams close and I'm a lifelong fan of the Impact. I really hope Quebec gets a club in the near future, I know there are fans, but will it be viable? I guess no balls, no glory.

 

All things said, felt in love with the game in 1999, and looking back, we have made giants steps in the last decade.

[RS]

2 hours ago, P-O said:

But on the other hand, if we ever want to become a relevant nation (talking about a domestic league) we will need our biggest players in playing in the CPL. Is this viable for now? No.

Disagree. Most relevant nations have their biggest players in top 5 European leagues.

Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, Netherlands, etc. all have strong domestic leagues without their best players playing within them. And we'd all agree that they are relevant soccer nations.

What we should want is CPL to become at least MLS level. That would boost our player pool to the next level, although it will take decades to get there (if ever). 

Even if it doesn't, the current rate of improvement should do just fine.

[P-O]

Of you read my text, and not quote a paragraph out of context our biggest players are the 3 teams. MtL Tor Van.

 

 

[RS]

2 hours ago, P-O said:

Of you read my text, and not quote a paragraph out of context our biggest players are the 3 teams. MtL Tor Van.

 

 

I read it all. I'm disagreeing with it.

[Watchmen]

7 hours ago, P-O said:

If Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver sticks to the MLS forever, we are loosing our 3 biggest markets and we will be like the Welsh league forever. Imagine Rangers and Celtic going to the English federation. What would happen with scottish futbol?

Scotland went two decades between qualifying for major tournaments. Maybe they would have been better off if their 2 biggest teams were playing at a higher level while the others had a more competitive basis to thrive in.

[Watchmen]

6 hours ago, RS said:

Disagree. Most relevant nations have their biggest players in top 5 European leagues.

Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, Netherlands, etc. all have strong domestic leagues without their best players playing within them. And we'd all agree that they are relevant soccer nations.

What we should want is CPL to become at least MLS level. That would boost our player pool to the next level, although it will take decades to get there (if ever). 

Even if it doesn't, the current rate of improvement should do just fine.

Honestly, in a best-case scenario the best players in the country never play in the CPL - they play through League 1 and skip over to Europe or MLS at an early age.

[Kingston]

I'd say no to that move.

Even leaving aside MLS' single entity issues, there's no way to move the teams beyond in name only.  You can't fit teams with $15 million to $20 million (USD) payrolls into a league with a $850 k salary cap.

Canadian soccer benefits from having MLS teams.  It's an easier step up for many players than going straight to Europe and provides more decent-level playing spots.

As for the FIFA forced transfer thing, I know that's a theoretical possibility.  I also know that the laws of Canada supercede the rules of FIFA.  MLSE signs single player contracts that are worth more than the CSA's annual budget.  MLSE has about $650 million reasons to fight the CSA if they try to force a move of TFC and that's aside from Vancouver and Montreal.  I'm not sure the CSA wants to pick that fight when the reward for winning is what?  Destroying an entire level of Canadian soccer development?  Where's the upside?

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Scotland went two decades between qualifying for major tournaments. Maybe they would have been better off if their 2 biggest teams were playing at a higher level while the others had a more competitive basis to thrive in.

Disagree with this. You're assuming their roster would have been "Scottish heavy" - let alone getting lots of minutes - let alone starting

--> why would they when they would seek to compete and win in the Premier League? Honestly, they'd get relegated in a heartbeat if they did that.

The other point I think they understand in Scotland that many don't get in Canada is that the level of Celtic and Rangers is high compare to other teams. Sure they are beating up most of the other clubs most of the time but the players on those clubs are facing higher quality which helps in their development.

Also, there are weaker leagues who's national league had better success so there's more to it than just calling out the Scottish FA not letting Rangers and Celtic go in my opinion

Celtic in SPL

 

Rangers in SPL

[Watchmen]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Disagree with this. You're assuming their roster would have been "Scottish heavy" - let alone getting lots of minutes - let alone starting

--> why would they when they would seek to compete and win in the Premier League? Honestly, they'd get relegated in a heartbeat if they did that.

The other point I think they understand in Scotland that many don't get in Canada is that the level of Celtic and Rangers is high compare to other teams. Sure they are beating up most of the other clubs most of the time but the players on those clubs are facing higher quality which helps in their development.

Also, there are weaker leagues who's national league had better success so there's more to it than just calling out the Scottish FA not letting Rangers and Celtic go in my opinion

Celtic in SPL

 

Rangers in SPL

You've missed my point. Keeping the two giants in Scotland didn't help them - they went two decades between major tournaments. And the players on "those other clubs" didn't get better by facing higher competition at Celtic and Rangers because again...they went two decades between major tournaments.  I would not expect Celtic and Rangers to have fielded heavily Scottish rosters, but they don't now either. But it might have been a better pathway to a higher league for some players, while the remaining teams could have focused on player development while still having a chance to win the league.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

I also know that the laws of Canada supercede the rules of FIFA.  MLSE signs single player contracts that are worth more than the CSA's annual budget.  MLSE has about $650 million reasons to fight the CSA if they try to force a move of TFC and that's aside from Vancouver and Montreal.  I'm not sure the CSA wants to pick that fight when the reward for winning is what?

You're assuming that FIFA/CSA/CONCACAF don't have clauses accounting for such eventuality ahead of sanctioning those clubs. All parties "agrees" to all FIFA rules before sealing the deal - there'd be negotiations, sure but there's no legal case here or FIFA needs better lawyers.

Also, FIFA wouldn't be "forcing" a move - they'd tell them that they aren't sanctioned to play out of Canada. The owners can move to the US or sell. MLS wouldn't allow an unsanctioned club to compete in its league and I doubt they'd put that much fight if it came to this. They'll find cities willing to build brand new stadiums and pay hundreds of millions of expansion fees

 

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

Destroying an entire level of Canadian soccer development?

You're assuming that MLSE, Saputo and the guys in Vancouver would just exit the business. If some due, those 3 cities will attract major investors domestically and/or abroad to fill the vacuum.

 

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

Where's the upside?

Like it or not, with CSA/CSB interests being so intertwined and being stakeholder in the league, it is also in the CSA interest for CPL to get as big as it can be. The upsides could be more down the road should CPL demonstrate that it can have a higher churn rate long term. If CPL can do it, what would be the CSA interest to artificially cap the leagues potential growth and their bottom line at the at the same time knowing that MLS clubs would STILL sign the best Canadians?

I'm noticing that too many people are leaving out the business side of it - it a HUGE piece of the puzzle

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

You've missed my point. Keeping the two giants in Scotland didn't help them - they went two decades between major tournaments. And the players on "those other clubs" didn't get better by facing higher competition at Celtic and Rangers because again...they went two decades between major tournaments.  I would not expect Celtic and Rangers to have fielded heavily Scottish rosters, but they don't now either. But it might have been a better pathway to a higher league for some players, while the remaining teams could have focused on player development while still having a chance to win the league.

The Scottish FA understands that destroying their football structure no matter how imperfect it is (which is a certainty) over a "might" or "maybe" is pure insanity.

The risks FAR exceeds the potential benefits

The best solution being pragmatic and address the fixable causes explaining poor performances - certainly not giving away your 2 biggest assets and fall further into irrelevancy.

[Watchmen]

21 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The Scottish FA understands that destroying their football structure no matter how imperfect it is (which is a certainty) over a "might" or "maybe" is pure insanity.

The risks FAR exceeds the potential benefits

The best solution being pragmatic and address the fixable causes explaining poor performances - certainly not giving away your 2 biggest assets and fall further into irrelevancy.

So what are the risks? Again, they chose your method and missed out on 2 decades of tournaments, and it took an expanded Euro to do it. I would think having your countries 2 biggest clubs play in the biggest league (financially) in the world would be a benefit, not "falling into irrelevancy". And the pragmatic approach would then be to work with the remaining clubs with an emphasis on player development, something I don't think they're capable of doing now.

[Aird25]

The MLS has too many teams for one division already and the Canadian teams are pretty much unanimously the worst performers apart from Chivas (who folded). TFC are amongst the top spenders but Vancouver and Montreal arent really. The only reason I see that MLS still wants Canadian teams in the league is to secure some of the Canadian soccer market. I don’t understand why so many Canadians buy into that, but it works in other sports too. I have no clue what would be best for Canadian soccer overall

[Ansem]

31 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

So what are the risks? Again, they chose your method and missed out on 2 decades of tournaments, and it took an expanded Euro to do it. I would think having your countries 2 biggest clubs play in the biggest league (financially) in the world would be a benefit, not "falling into irrelevancy". And the pragmatic approach would then be to work with the remaining clubs with an emphasis on player development, something I don't think they're capable of doing now.

I don't understand why you're so convinced that the Scottish FA letting Rangers and Celtic go to the English system would be the solution (No guarantee they'd stay in EPL). Their UEFA coefficient has improved to #11 and are 39th in the World. Would you agree that they have improved without using the nuclear option of getting rid of 2 of their biggest assets?

Correction

Scotland improved to 9th - Without Rangers and Celtic they'd be at the bottom of the list. On top of that, you're depriving other Scottish with the opportunity to play against better quality of football with those 2 gone. It gets harder to stand out and pretty much renders the SPL unattractive to the other leagues. Too much potential damage when Scotland have other ways to fix their issues.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Ansem
correction

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I don't understand why you're so convinced that the Scottish FA letting Rangers and Celtic go to the English system would be the solution (No guarantee they'd stay in EPL). Their UEFA coefficient has improved to #11 and are 39th in the World. Would you agree that they have improved without using the nuclear option of getting rid of 2 of their biggest assets?

Correction

Scotland improved to 9th - Without Rangers and Celtic they'd be at the bottom of the list. On top of that, you're depriving other Scottish with the opportunity to play against better quality of football with those 2 gone. It gets harder to stand out and pretty much renders the SPL unattractive to the other leagues. Too much potential damage when Scotland have other ways to fix their issues.

They're league coefficient improved because Rangers came back up from the 4th division to the premiership and started playing in Europe.

However, we're also having a discussion about quality of the national team and how to improve that, and you can look down the Coefficient list and see countries that are much better than Scotland with lower ranked leagues. 

I think my main point is that there's more than one way to improve the quality of the players. I don't think the national teams league ranking matters quite as much as you do.

[rkomar]

I've said it before, converting the Canadian MLS teams to CPL would mean losing a great amount of revenue that is used for paying players and staff.  I can't see that any of them would be happy with dropping to 10% of what they were pulling in before.  Until CPL team revenues get up to the same ballpark as MLS ones, it's nuts to forgo all that money and the advantages that it brings.   Would we really be better off if the MLS teams dropped their operating costs to CPL levels?  Would we be better off with a small fraction of the current development system that each MLS team operates?

[Shway]

21 minutes ago, rkomar said:

I've said it before, converting the Canadian MLS teams to CPL would mean losing a great amount of revenue that is used for paying players and staff.  I can't see that any of them would be happy with dropping to 10% of what they were pulling in before.  Until CPL team revenues get up to the same ballpark as MLS ones, it's nuts to forgo all that money and the advantages that it brings.   Would we really be better off if the MLS teams dropped their operating costs to CPL levels?  Would we be better off with a small fraction of the current development system that each MLS team operates?

But I don’t see it as this. The “revenue” is heavily cushioned through league sharing. Clearly some clubs don’t make enough, because they don’t spend enough - Caps, San Jose, RSL.

The money they would forgo, would be sustained for several years through the sale of their franchises. (350M seems to be the going rate right now for an MLS franchise,  when they initially purchased for todays CPL cost of 10M)

The operating costs wouldn’t change a lot, I think the CPL could “accommodate” the MLS clubs with tweaks to the salary cap. Increasing the max, having a luxury tax, keeping the DP rule. Theres ways that aren’t unreasonable.

What we would see is that those clubs would over spend the likes of Valour, aka be able to be Atlanta in Vancouver.

I think it would enhance the development path, as the bigger clubs (like everywhere else) would be able to pick the crème of the crop while the other clubs continuing to develop the hidden gems. 

Year 3.5 of the CPL, and we have MacNaughton, Chung, and Waterman all proving capable of playing in MLS - do you believe this is an anomaly? It’s not a coincidence that all those opportunities were given to by Canadian clubs…why because the risk and chance is still high for American clubs to take on an “InTeRnAtIoNaL pLaYeR”.

I’m done with being passive, there’s gotta be a way forward. 

[Bison44]

4 minutes ago, Shway said:

Year 3.5 of the CPL, and we have MacNaughton, Chung, and Waterman all proving capable of playing in MLS - do you believe this is an anomaly? It’s not a coincidence that all those opportunities were given to by Canadian clubs…why because the risk and chance is still high for American clubs to take on an “InTeRnAtIoNaL pLaYeR”.

Wish we would start right there, change that so its completely even stevens.......thats been a bone stuck in my craw forever.  

[Shway]

Just now, Bison44 said:

Wish we would start right there, change that so its completely even stevens.......thats been a bone stuck in my craw forever.  

Bunch of semantics and lip service every year. But it’s suppose to be our D1 league.

They tried to come up with a solution to the green card rules by giving more international spots, but to me it still doesn’t suffice.

[narduch]

31 minutes ago, Shway said:

But I don’t see it as this. The “revenue” is heavily cushioned through league sharing. Clearly some clubs don’t make enough, because they don’t spend enough - Caps, San Jose, RSL.

The money they would forgo, would be sustained for several years through the sale of their franchises. (350M seems to be the going rate right now for an MLS franchise,  when they initially purchased for todays CPL cost of 10M)

The operating costs wouldn’t change a lot, I think the CPL could “accommodate” the MLS clubs with tweaks to the salary cap. Increasing the max, having a luxury tax, keeping the DP rule. Theres ways that aren’t unreasonable.

What we would see is that those clubs would over spend the likes of Valour, aka be able to be Atlanta in Vancouver.

I think it would enhance the development path, as the bigger clubs (like everywhere else) would be able to pick the crème of the crop while the other clubs continuing to develop the hidden gems. 

Year 3.5 of the CPL, and we have MacNaughton, Chung, and Waterman all proving capable of playing in MLS - do you believe this is an anomaly? It’s not a coincidence that all those opportunities were given to by Canadian clubs…why because the risk and chance is still high for American clubs to take on an “InTeRnAtIoNaL pLaYeR”.

I’m done with being passive, there’s gotta be a way forward. 

Kind of also shows how lazy scouting can be sometimes. 

All 3 CPL players that signed in MLS played against that team in the Voyageurs Cup the previous year.

 

[Watchmen]

56 minutes ago, Shway said:

The operating costs wouldn’t change a lot, I think the CPL could “accommodate” the MLS clubs with tweaks to the salary cap. Increasing the max, having a luxury tax, keeping the DP rule. Theres ways that aren’t unreasonable.

CPL teams are currently operating at about $750k for salaries.  The Whitecaps are notoriously cheap and spend over 10 times that.  TFC is many times more. So I ask this in all honesty - do you really, really think the CPL would change it's rules structure to accommodate the MLS clubs?  Because I don't. I think they'd drag the MLS teams down to their level in the name of parity.  

59 minutes ago, Shway said:

Year 3.5 of the CPL, and we have MacNaughton, Chung, and Waterman all proving capable of playing in MLS - do you believe this is an anomaly? It’s not a coincidence that all those opportunities were given to by Canadian clubs…why because the risk and chance is still high for American clubs to take on an “InTeRnAtIoNaL pLaYeR”.

But this is why having 3 clubs in MLS is beneficial. Those players were less likely to get a chance on a US MLS team. They probably didn't get much of an offer from Europe.  But they were able to move on to a higher level simply because Canada has 3 teams in MLS.  I will continue to say it - we currently have the best of both worlds, a league focused more on development and access to a higher league to push/promote/train the players at an even higher level.

[gigi riva]

These next four years I believe will be very crucial for CPL I believe , Trying to get into mainstream  is a bit of a challenge, but not impossible , I still think the powers to be need to think outside the box come up,with some creative marketing ideas to promote, I know that is easier said than done 

[Kingston]

14 hours ago, Ansem said:

You're assuming that FIFA/CSA/CONCACAF don't have clauses accounting for such eventuality ahead of sanctioning those clubs. All parties "agrees" to all FIFA rules before sealing the deal - there'd be negotiations, sure but there's no legal case here or FIFA needs better lawyers.

Also, FIFA wouldn't be "forcing" a move - they'd tell them that they aren't sanctioned to play out of Canada. The owners can move to the US or sell. MLS wouldn't allow an unsanctioned club to compete in its league and I doubt they'd put that much fight if it came to this. They'll find cities willing to build brand new stadiums and pay hundreds of millions of expansion fees

I'm not claiming to have lawyer level knowledge of what would be agreed to.  I don't think any of us here do.

I do know that the world globally accepts FIFA because it is convenient and useful to have someone oversee global soccer and facilitate all the things that have to go on in that complex system.  In reality, however, national laws are real laws, not FIFA rules.  If a Swiss-based company tried to, in practice, destroy a $650 million Canadian company, I imagine Canada's actual business laws would have something to say about it.  

Equally importantly, however, is to ask why anyone would want to fight that fight.  There isn't really any reason to as things are working quite well right now.

14 hours ago, Ansem said:

You're assuming that MLSE, Saputo and the guys in Vancouver would just exit the business. If some due, those 3 cities will attract major investors domestically and/or abroad to fill the vacuum.

 

Like it or not, with CSA/CSB interests being so intertwined and being stakeholder in the league, it is also in the CSA interest for CPL to get as big as it can be. The upsides could be more down the road should CPL demonstrate that it can have a higher churn rate long term. If CPL can do it, what would be the CSA interest to artificially cap the leagues potential growth and their bottom line at the at the same time knowing that MLS clubs would STILL sign the best Canadians?

I'm noticing that too many people are leaving out the business side of it - it a HUGE piece of the puzzle

I don't doubt that the CPL would put teams in the big three markets if the MLS teams left.  Those would be CPL teams, however.  As much as some top end Canadians would sign for US-based MLS teams, we would lose a lot in terms of what we now have for Canadian player development.  If you're counting on what the CPL might do down the road - well, it's going to be a very, very long road before the CPL gets to where MLS is today; and by then MLS will have moved a considerable distance further down the road.  I honestly don't ever see the CPL catching MLS.  I see more of a CFL/NFL type situation where the two leagues function on different levels.  So I'm not leaving out the business side - I'm just recognizing that Canadian soccer development is better off with teams in both leagues.