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How long until....MLS to CPL


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Just finished watching the Vancouver vs Portland match. Seemed like a decent crowd considering they have been an average team for several years.

Does anyone think or Hope the 3 MLS Canadian clubs jump ship. If CPL can expand successfully to 12 teams, do you think it's time for those teams to play in our domestic league.

I would love to see all those teams in the CPL. I would hope Montreal would be the 1st team to come over. Joey Saputo as we all know owns Bologna. He could loan some of those euro players to CPL teams as well as put CPL on the map as an Up and Coming League. 

Any thoughts.

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Think people really need to let go of this whole MLS vs CanPL obsession and should basically try to enjoy having both leagues rather than viewing them as two mutually exclusive and antagonistic projects. One size doesn't necessarily fit all where different Canadian cities are concerned, so the goal should be to try to make pro soccer work in as many Canadian cities as possible. 

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14 minutes ago, ATM said:

Just finished watching the Vancouver vs Portland match. Seemed like a decent crowd considering they have been an average team for several years.

Does anyone think or Hope the 3 MLS Canadian clubs jump ship. If CPL can expand successfully to 12 teams, do you think it's time for those teams to play in our domestic league.

I would love to see all those teams in the CPL. I would hope Montreal would be the 1st team to come over. Joey Saputo as we all know owns Bologna. He could loan some of those euro players to CPL teams as well as put CPL on the map as an Up and Coming League. 

Any thoughts.

NO! Leave them right where they are please.  CPL will be fine on its own.

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In my opinion this would actually be better for Canadian soccer in the long run.

Soccer is way more popular in Canada per capita compared to the USA.

I just don't see it ever happening though. Unless MLS collapses.

The current status quo works so there is no point in upsetting that. 

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Joey would have to sell his MLS team and tbh, that league is taking off and franchise values will sky rocket, maybe in 20 years ? Could be further, I’m not sure it will ever make business sense for any of the 3.

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53 minutes ago, narduch said:

In my opinion this would actually be better for Canadian soccer in the long run.

Soccer is way more popular in Canada per capita compared to the USA.

I just don't see it ever happening though. Unless MLS collapses.

The current status quo works so there is no point in upsetting that. 

I agree , but the rivalries would be great.

Pacific FC vs Whitecaps 

TFC vs York United & Hamilton Forge

CF MTL vs a future Quebec/Laval team

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48 minutes ago, ATM said:

I agree , but the rivalries would be great.

Pacific FC vs Whitecaps 

TFC vs York United & Hamilton Forge

CF MTL vs a future Quebec/Laval team

You either neuter the MLS teams, especially TFC or you have the 3 MLS team run riot every year and maybeeeee Calgary wins once in a blue moon. Both sides lose if the MLS sides go to CPL anytime soon. With the MLS being in the MLS, Canadian players are guaranteed to play at a good level.

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I mean the budgets are way out of whack. MLS teams have TV deals and can draw 20,000+ at 50$ a ticket. There are several CPL teams that struggle to draw a few thousand and no TV deal - or virtually any coverage at aside from local media. Thats not to say it could never happen but things would have to radically change just to consider it,.

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NO!  I think we should hope that the CPL rises up to the level of MLS on its own.  Same kind of thing that MLS is trying to do to Liga MX.  If the big city owners can compete in MLS, let them.  Its more important to have our league with roster rules that put the emphasis on CDN content.. get better naturally and in new markets to grow the game outside the center of the universe.  Get in there and help create the next little Brampton hotbed of young talent...no reason why we cant see that in Calgary, Winnipeg or Halifax.  Or better yet, Quebec city or Saskatoon!!    

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Wouldn't rule out the 3 Canadian teams in the USA's D1 league coming into Canada's D1 eventually, but its likely 10 years or more till it would come about. Just as it took MLS many years to grow into what it is now, the very young CPL will over the years grow to higher and higher heights and status as Canada's top tier league for the sport.

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Never say never. 

BUT.. we still get to have our cake and eat it right now. Unless the CPL has the same money behind it and cap space, sponsorship etc. as the MLS then there is little point changing. 

The clubs are MLS franchises so they likely couldn't exist in the CPL as they are right now. 

We have multiple viable pathways for Canadians right now and like it or not the MLS, for right now (and the foreseeable) at least, has a higher level of players, coaches and playing experiences than CPL. 

I certainly dream of the day the CPL is comparable to the MLS on and off the field but we are talking decades most likely.

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23 hours ago, ATM said:

Just finished watching the Vancouver vs Portland match. Seemed like a decent crowd considering they have been an average team for several years.

Does anyone think or Hope the 3 MLS Canadian clubs jump ship. If CPL can expand successfully to 12 teams, do you think it's time for those teams to play in our domestic league.

I would love to see all those teams in the CPL. I would hope Montreal would be the 1st team to come over. Joey Saputo as we all know owns Bologna. He could loan some of those euro players to CPL teams as well as put CPL on the map as an Up and Coming League. 

Any thoughts.

Yes & No

1-No I don't think they will jump ship - Because they can't jump ship from MLS to CPL - The single entity nature of MLS (owning the IP, half the club and all the contracts) makes it next to impossible 

Yes, sort of possible to "switch" BUT - They would need to either:

  • sell their shares back to the league and kiss those IP goodbye. Those owners would have to start from scratch in CPL as a new expansion as MLS holds all the players contracts. The league could use the new 3 vacant spots as brand new expansions to be sold at a very high price. (Most likely)
  • sell the franchise to a new owner who would move the clubs in the US - Think Ottawa Fury (less likely)

This would be a messy, costly and complex legal nightmare - quite frankly, CPL is nowhere near where this would make sense short to medium term.

This will be a sanctioning issue that will end at CONCACAF/FIFA level

We all know about the FIFA Statute allowing the 3 clubs to be in MLS. When their wavers exempting them from renewing their sanction expires, CONCACAF will have to rule on this once they reapply. Like it or not, the Fury case is a massive precedent.

I see these scenarios:

  1. They reapply & CONCACAF/FIFA could agree to "grandfather them" - Logically, MLS would seek a "permanent decision". Debatable how comfortable the CSA would be with "perpetuity".
  2. They reapply & CONCACAF/FIFA denies their request due to not complying with FIFA Statute exemptions clauses like they did the Fury. Legally, it's hard to believe that there isn't a clear roadmap for separation in such eventuality. (This is the only way, it could happen in my opinion especially if CPL proves long-term viability)

 

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Fact check: The Fury pulled out of USL and sold their franchise rights to FC Miami when Victor Montagliani made life awkward for them in administrative terms. The previous year when they threatened to take it to the CAS he backed down. This has no relevance to MLS who have continued to receive sanctioning. I am not aware of anything expiring on that where MLS is concerned so doubt that's something that is really in "we all know" sort of territory.

FIFA hasn't done anything to force Welsh clubs out of the English league structure and have previously actively blocked moves by the Asian Football Confederation to force the Wellington Pheonix out of the A League in Australia so the idea that FIFA statutes on this are inevitably going to be actively enforced in future does not bear close examination. They also have statutes related to promotion and relegation but anyone who thinks that means MLS will eventually have to introduce relegation is dreaming in technicolour.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot
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1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Fact check: The Fury pulled out of USL and sold their franchise rights to FC Miami when Victor Montagliani made life awkward for them in administrative terms.

--> Fact check https://socceresq.com/2019/02/05/ottawa-fury-begin-2019-in-usl-but-will-they-end-the-year-there/

Quote

As a follow-up to my call yesterday, I wish to advise you that we have received correspondence from Concacaf indicating that Concacaf will not be in a position to consider sanctioning Ottawa Fury to participate/play in the USL for season 2019. Concacaf have taken the position that, as the CSA has a sanctioned league (the CPL) which is scheduled to play in 2019, the “exceptional circumstances” as described in FIFA Statute, Article 73 no longer apply.

Excerpt from letter received by Ottawa Fury re: 2019 sanctioning.

  • As the CONCACAF letter notes, the Fury are only sanctioned for the 2019 season. Should they wish to play in the USL in 2020 (and beyond), they will have to renew their sanctioning application at some point this year. At that time, some uncomfortable conversations will need to be had. There is no example of “exceptional circumstances” including financial considerations which would allow a team to play outside its domestic league.

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The previous year when they threatened to take it to the CAS he backed down.

Because it was ridiculously short noticed

  • Either way, that notice period ahead of the 2019 season had long since lapsed, and the USL has since announced their schedule–with Ottawa included. The de-sanctioning of Ottawa would have had serious detrimental effects on the league according to sources. With the schedule released, losing Ottawa would have required substantial changes, which likely would forced the league to incur financial penalties due to fewer games and potentially breaking existing contracts, sources said.

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

This has no relevance to MLS who have continued to receive sanctioning. I am not aware of anything expiring on that where MLS is concerned so doubt that's something that is really in "we all know" sort of territory.

  • When the Fury announced that CONCACAF was not going to sanction them to play in the United States, it sent off shockwaves in both Canada and the United States.
  • There could be any number of reasons why MLS teams aren’t being pressured at this time. Several sources have indicated that MLS has an agreement to be exempt for sanctioning on this issue for a set amount of time.

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

FIFA hasn't done anything to force Welsh clubs out of the English league structure and have previously actively blocked moves by the Asian Football Confederation to force the Wellington Pheonix out of the A League in Australia so the idea that FIFA statutes on this are inevitably going to be actively enforced in future does not bear close examination. They also have statutes related to promotion and relegation but anyone who thinks that means MLS will eventually have to introduce relegation is dreaming in technicolour.

Welsh clubs :

“These exceptions generally fall into a few major categories: (1) clubs that are in close proximity to another member’s territory and have been long-standing members of the other league*, (2) clubs that have moved because of political conflict or civil war in their homes countries, (3) clubs located in member associations where there isn’t currently a professional league, and (4) clubs in disputed territories.”

*over a century in certain cases

New Zealand : I'm not well verse in the matter but a club belonging to the OFC competing in the AFC could be viewed as an "exceptional" situation, maybe?

The point is that in the Canada/US context - this is a clear precedent which may impact MLS/Canada in the future if you pay attention to CONCACAF ruling.

  • With no guarantee of success (or viability), sources noted the Fury were concerned about being made to join a league that could be out of business after a year or two, or suffering through the loss or relocation of teams. That said, it’s unclear if this qualifies as an “exceptional circumstance.” Similarly, it’s no one can cite any examples of disparity in quality of players or play on the field providing a sufficient reason to play outside ones domestic league.

All I'm saying is that ultimately, FIFA & CONCACAF holds all the cards - I just pointed out some of the main possibilities. All those examples above came from someone who's credibility is without a doubt. You don't have to like his opinion but they are nonetheless very credible

Edited by Ansem
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While it will be difficult, the CanPL should not compare itself to MLS! None of the Canadian teams in MLS will join the league for various reasons, at least in the medium term. But the CanPL has a really important role to play in the development of the game in the country. The road is going to be bumpy, but the fruit is starting to show. Players like Waterman, Chung, Macnaughton etc would not be getting the game time elsewhere without the league, maybe they would have just fallen off the wayside like potential before them... and hell there is a lot of it. Maybe it will be a development league of sorts for Europe or the MLS. But thats such a needed route to make soccer a bigger game in the country. Think long term not short. If the league is sustainable, so is Canadian soccer. 

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2 hours ago, Ansem said:

I'd say that everyone's a developmental league / club for Europe Top 5  / top clubs - including MLS

Reason why our talent shouldn't be hindered or restrained by being tied to MLS. I know some don't see this as the case.

I've stated how I feel about this, as I am a purist and want the MLS teams in CPL in the near future. 

I think it will be great for our culture, the system, and the main reason being the development. Players/Coaches need to be given consistent opportunities on the continental level, as we've seen what it did for Kone. Or how we seen Forge do with a Canadian coach, and majority team.  That won't happen with our limited automatic spots in the CCL going forward.

Opportunities will be limited. I want to stress this a lot.

What would happen is TFC, MTL, and the Caps would basically get the best talent, and would annually compete for the title. But that's part of every football league. The benefit is the rules would be in place. 

I hope the precedent set by Concacaf with Ottawa will be consistent. 

The Canadian MLS teams can make a lot of money by selling their franchise to some Americans wanting to put a team in a deserving city.

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1 hour ago, Shway said:

Reason why our talent shouldn't be hindered or restrained by being tied to MLS. I know some don't see this as the case.

I've stated how I feel about this, as I am a purist and want the MLS teams in CPL in the near future. 

I think it will be great for our culture, the system, and the main reason being the development. Players/Coaches need to be given consistent opportunities on the continental level, as we've seen what it did for Kone. Or how we seen Forge do with a Canadian coach, and majority team.  That won't happen with our limited automatic spots in the CCL going forward.

Opportunities will be limited. I want to stress this a lot.

What would happen is TFC, MTL, and the Caps would basically get the best talent, and would annually compete for the title. But that's part of every football league. The benefit is the rules would be in place. 

I hope the precedent set by Concacaf with Ottawa will be consistent. 

The Canadian MLS teams can make a lot of money by selling their franchise to some Americans wanting to put a team in a deserving city.

I rather Canadian players make an actual good living playing in the MLS than barely surviving in the CPL and having to retire at the ripe old age of 20 to 25 like a few have already done .  I don’t see CPL salaries rising substantially anytime soon. I would guess that a lot of us here are probably making more money than your average CPL player . Until CPL salaries match MLS salaries, I don’t see MLS Canadian teams joining anytime soon. Moreover, if they are forced to join by FIFA in the near future , the better Canadian players on these Canadian MLS teams will just go to America MLS teams where they can keep making decent money. The setup we have now is a good setup and a setup that produced players that got us to a World Cup .

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1 hour ago, SoccMan said:

I rather Canadian players make an actual good living playing in the MLS than barely surviving in the CPL and having to retire at the ripe old age of 20 to 25 like a few have already done .  I don’t see CPL salaries rising substantially anytime soon. I would guess that a lot of us here are probably making more money than your average CPL player . Until CPL salaries match MLS salaries, I don’t see MLS Canadian teams joining anytime soon. Moreover, if they are forced to join by FIFA in the near future , the better Canadian players on these Canadian MLS teams will just go to America MLS teams where they can keep making decent money. The setup we have now is a good setup and a setup that produced players that got us to a World Cup .

You bring up valid point. I think if those teams came over to the CPL, the salary cap would most definitely increase - to what extent?  I don't think MLS (now) salaries, but Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal could still offer significant larger salaries. MLS is slowly catching up to Liga MX in salary, and that has taken 20+ years. There's reason to believe that the CPL could get to MLS 1.0 salaries in near future (2026) with additional sponsors.

Canadian players would still be playing in MLS, and thats completely fine. Transfer fee's will be paid, or players signing on a free. Ultimately we would be in control of our system. The CSA doesn't get a piece of the pie like the USSF does.

The reality is that the CPLs potential will forever be hindered/capped because of the perception, and the strongehold MLS has on the Canadian market. I can see the apathy that is engrained in Canadian culture, and we gotta make a shift on that mentality of relying on the states for all of our entertainment, or content, and for those avenues only deemed worthy from their approval. I hate it.

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13 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I personally cannot stand a 28 team league. I'd rather see the Whitecaps in a division 2 trying to get promoted than see it swim around in irrelevance 

I fucking hate it. And it's never ending. Reason why I’ve said I’ve slowly lost interest. Both their leagues are non stop growing(MLS and USL)....with no connection. 
We are developing a system completely contrary to that, but then saying ....well our richest clubs don't have to be apart.

I liked the Whitecaps and the Impact for what they did before joining MLS. Now I just feel like they are lost in the mission or purpose. Suffering an identity crisis.

Edited by Shway
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20 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I personally cannot stand a 28 team league. I'd rather see the Whitecaps in a division 2 trying to get promoted than see it swim around in irrelevance 

Holy shit I'm glad I'm not the only one.

It's too many teams for a top flight soccer league.

I know it will never happen but if they are serious about being one of the top leagues in the world they need to trim down to 30 teams.

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