2022 Voyageurs Cup

[longlugan]

44 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Agree with your main argument but it's more like D5 in English terms in terms of playing standards.

Once again...you don't have a clue. You do you though. Happy Friday Oswald.

[nfitz]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Agree with your main argument but it's more like D5 in English terms in terms of playing standards.

Maybe D4.

[nfitz]

duplicate post

wish we could delete posts - at least shortly after

Edited February 11, 2022 by nfitz

[nfitz]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Agree with your main argument but it's more like D5 in English terms in terms of playing standards.

Maybe D4. Don't see a big deal what we call it though. Seems all doubleplusgeek to me.

[nfitz]

doubleplusduplicate post

Edited February 11, 2022 by nfitz

[Kent]

12 hours ago, Kingston said:

I think the problem is that people get hung up on the label (D1, D2) rather than focusing on the level of play.  So they get insulted that the D1 league isn't automatically given deference due to its label.  Whereas a more logical (to me) approach is to focus on the actual level of play regardless of the labels.  

Really, the labels are a way to rank leagues within a country but aren't necessarily meaningful when comparing leagues based in different countries.  Our D1 is probably the equivalent to the American D2 and the English D3.

 

I don't have a problem with it being based on level of play, but for it to be based on level of play they should set metrics for how that is measured, like when you (I think it was you) mentioned the records of the two leagues when they have competed against each other. Have that be transparent, say maybe it's based on the combined results for the last 3 years or 5 years or whatever they decide to go with. If it's not transparent, that's a problem in my opinion. But I guess we will see what they say when they make it official.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 hours ago, nfitz said:

Maybe D4. Don't see a big deal what we call it though. Seems all doubleplusgeek to me.

D3 in England has Sunderland, Ipswich Town, Sheffield Wednesday, Portsmouth and Charlton Athletic on board this season. Arguing that CanPL is comparable to that is a stretch to put it mildly. That's probably more comparable to teams that miss the playoffs in MLS in a big way like TFC last season.

Being compared to clubs like Notts County, Chesterfield, Grimsby Town, Stockport County and Wrexham should be viewed as a compliment in a CanPL context. D5 in England is stronger than a significant portion of the D1 leagues in UEFA in smaller countries which brings us back to people making way too much out of this D1 thing on here. 

A lot people on this board don't seem to grasp that a move to a D5 English club like Barnet would probably be better from a future career progression standpoint in terms of likelihood to be noticed than Ryan Lindsay's recent move to a D1 Estonian club called JK Narva Trans.

[longlugan]

10 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

D3 in England has Sunderland, Ipswich Town, Sheffield Wednesday, Portsmouth and Charlton Athletic on board this season. Arguing that CanPL is comparable to that is a stretch to put it mildly. That's probably more comparable to teams that miss the playoffs in MLS in a big way like TFC last season.

Being compared to clubs like Notts County, Chesterfield, Grimsby Town, Stockport County and Wrexham should be viewed as a compliment in a CanPL context. D5 in England is stronger than a significant portion of the D1 leagues in UEFA in smaller countries which brings us back to people making way too much out of this D1 thing on here. 

A lot people on this board don't seem to grasp that a move to a D5 English club like Barnet would probably be better from a future career progression standpoint in terms of likelihood to be noticed than Ryan Lindsay's recent move to a D1 Estonian club called JK Narva Trans.

I could write a novel about all the things you don't seem capable of grasping.

[Trois Reds]

12 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

D3 in England has Sunderland, Ipswich Town, Sheffield Wednesday, Portsmouth and Charlton Athletic on board this season. Arguing that CanPL is comparable to that is a stretch to put it mildly. That's probably more comparable to teams that miss the playoffs in MLS in a big way like TFC last season.

Being compared to clubs like Notts County, Chesterfield, Grimsby Town, Stockport County and Wrexham should be viewed as a compliment in a CanPL context. D5 in England is stronger than a significant portion of the D1 leagues in UEFA in smaller countries which brings us back to people making way too much out of this D1 thing on here. 

A lot people on this board don't seem to grasp that a move to a D5 English club like Barnet would probably be better from a future career progression standpoint in terms of likelihood to be noticed than Ryan Lindsay's recent move to a D1 Estonian club called JK Narva Trans.

I thought this was a thread about the Voyageur's Cup, which involves Canada's teams and leagues, and not England's? I'm certain if England wants to join Canada to become our first European province, we can see which round the CPL (or MLS) clubs would be put in our new Canadian FA Cup, but since we've been our own nation since 1867, I don't see why you're bringing them into this.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

13 hours ago, Trois Reds said:

... but since we've been our own nation since 1867, I don't see why you're bringing them into this.

Soccer is a brand of football that is truly global in scope and not confined almost exclusively to one country like the CFL's football code. The prospects for the growth of pro soccer in Canada were set back considerably by the desire of the powers that be to have a specifically Canadian form of football and by the problems faced by any less favoured secondary sport in popularity terms making a league work in a relatively sparsely populated country that is continental in scale.

FIFA wants pro soccer to succeed in Canada so since the late 1960s they have allowed participation in cross-border leagues in a similar manner to what happens with the NHL, MLB and NBA. That means that there are currently two D1 sanctioned leagues functioning in Canada. You might have a problem with that but the mainstream opinion within Canadian soccer is that this has been hugely advantageous to the growth of pro soccer in Canada.

A fringe minority that are disproportionately represented on this particular forum will no doubt get worked up about questions of protocol related to the league sanctioning flexibility that was extended by FIFA in the months ahead, if it turns out that the three MLS clubs have received a bye in the Canadian Championship while CanPL clubs have not.

Meanwhile, the mainstream of soccer fans will be enjoying the benefits that are derived from it. A key starter from the Azzurri will be playing his club level football in southern Ontario from July this year, which is something that would have been unimaginable 20 years ago. World Cup finals qualification appears imminent for the first time in 36 years. The strengthening of the CMNT roster in recent years has been driven to a significant extent by the investment made by MLS in youth academy programs.   

Edited February 13, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[longlugan]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Soccer is a brand of football that is truly global in scope and not confined almost exclusively to one country like the CFL's football code. The prospects for the growth of pro soccer in Canada were set back considerably by the desire of the powers that be to have a specifically Canadian form of football and by the problems faced by any less favoured secondary sport in popularity terms making a league work in a relatively sparsely populated country that is continental in scale.

FIFA wants pro soccer to succeed in Canada so since the late 1960s they have allowed participation in cross-border leagues in a similar manner to what happens with the NHL, MLB and NBA. That means that there are currently two D1 sanctioned leagues functioning in Canada. You might have a problem with that but the mainstream opinion within Canadian soccer is that this has been hugely advantageous to the growth of pro soccer in Canada.

A fringe minority that are disproportionately represented on this particular forum will no doubt get worked up about questions of protocol related to the league sanctioning flexibility that was extended by FIFA in the months ahead, if it turns out that the three MLS clubs have received a bye in the Canadian Championship while CanPL clubs have not.

Meanwhile, the mainstream of soccer fans will be enjoying the benefits that are derived from it. A key starter from the Azzurri will be playing his club level football in southern Ontario from July this year, which is something that would have been unimaginable 20 years ago. World Cup finals qualification appears imminent for the first time in 36 years. The strengthening of the CMNT roster in recent years has been driven to a significant extent by the investment made by MLS in youth academy programs.   

Once again you've completely ignored the point that was being discussed to push your warped narrative. You state all your points as if they are proven facts( without proof of course) and absolutely dismiss anyone else's opinions. The odd times that you actually make valid points (yes, they occasionally happen) are ALWAYS eventually overshadowed by your American indoctrination vectors. And THIS is what makes you the biggest cunt on this board.

[SthMelbRed]

6 hours ago, longlugan said:

Once again you've completely ignored the point that was being discussed to push your warped narrative. You state all your points as if they are proven facts( without proof of course) and absolutely dismiss anyone else's opinions. The odd times that you actually make valid points (yes, they occasionally happen) are ALWAYS eventually overshadowed by your American indoctrination vectors. And THIS is what makes you the biggest cunt on this board.

He also posts handy links to semi-relevant Twitter stuff, you know. 

[Trois Reds]

11 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Soccer is a brand of football that is truly global in scope and not confined almost exclusively to one country like the CFL's football code. The prospects for the growth of pro soccer in Canada were set back considerably by the desire of the powers that be to have a specifically Canadian form of football and by the problems faced by any less favoured secondary sport in popularity terms making a league work in a relatively sparsely populated country that is continental in scale.

FIFA wants pro soccer to succeed in Canada so since the late 1960s they have allowed participation in cross-border leagues in a similar manner to what happens with the NHL, MLB and NBA. That means that there are currently two D1 sanctioned leagues functioning in Canada. You might have a problem with that but the mainstream opinion within Canadian soccer is that this has been hugely advantageous to the growth of pro soccer in Canada.

A fringe minority that are disproportionately represented on this particular forum will no doubt get worked up about questions of protocol related to the league sanctioning flexibility that was extended by FIFA in the months ahead, if it turns out that the three MLS clubs have received a bye in the Canadian Championship while CanPL clubs have not.

Meanwhile, the mainstream of soccer fans will be enjoying the benefits that are derived from it. A key starter from the Azzurri will be playing his club level football in southern Ontario from July this year, which is something that would have been unimaginable 20 years ago. World Cup finals qualification appears imminent for the first time in 36 years. The strengthening of the CMNT roster in recent years has been driven to a significant extent by the investment made by MLS in youth academy programs.   

1. The Voyageur's Cup is Canada's trophy, not England's, and isn't a global cup.  When Chelsea and Wrexham become Canadian teams, you can disparage the CPL about being D5 all you want. Otherwise, please, cut it out. That was my point, which you ignored. Again.

2. FIFA doesn't run the competition, the CSA does.

3. Show me somewhere, anywhere where my thoughts about two D1 leagues getting separate treatment are a "fringe minority". Twitter? Looks like the same concerns are being raised there. What makes it so fringe? Because you don't agree? I would argue it's close to a 50-50 split. You haven't once made a case about why MLS should get preferential treatment, whereas others in this thread have made valid points both for and against.

I've been a fan of Canadian soccer since Canada played France in Mexico '86. I followed the North York Rockets as a kid, cheered on the Impact and 86ers in the A-league, and have happily rooted for all three of our MLS clubs and the forming of the CPL. Not once have I ever complained that the level of play was not like England, nor do I care. I'm a Canadian soccer lover first. My favourite cup comp will always be the Voyageur's Cup, not the English FA's.

You throw around disparaging comments which have no bearing on what's being discussed and then deflect when called out on it. That's called trolling, which is not a fringe opinion.

TL;DR version: Since it's impossible to have a normal discourse when you're around, you're blocked.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

12 hours ago, Trois Reds said:

...you can disparage the CPL about being D5 all you want. Otherwise, please, cut it out...

Fact check: at no point did I disparge CanPL in this thread. D5 in England is largely fully professional and has a higher playing standard than many D1 leagues in smaller countries.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:18 PM, Kent said:

I don't have a problem with it being based on level of play, but for it to be based on level of play they should set metrics for how that is measured, like when you (I think it was you) mentioned the records of the two leagues when they have competed against each other. Have that be transparent, say maybe it's based on the combined results for the last 3 years or 5 years or whatever they decide to go with. If it's not transparent, that's a problem in my opinion. But I guess we will see what they say when they make it official.

Given that the CPL has only been around since 2019, any metrics are (for now) going to be three years.  Over that time the combined record is 7-2-2 in favour of MLS.  If the CSA wants to seed things based on league, it makes sense to seed the MLS teams above the CPL teams.

They could also make co-efficients for specific teams, in which the Whitecaps would be lower.  Or they could use last season's results.  Or geography.

I get your desire for a formal and transparent system.  At this stage of the competitions' history, however, I think they're just coming up with something that works for the bracket and making up a rationale to fit it later.  For now I think we just have to accept that and not get too upset about the parts of it that we might find unfair.  In another decade or so, when the CPL is built out and all the D3 leagues are in place, we can debate the best permanent format.

[Kingston]

On 2/11/2022 at 11:03 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Agree with your main argument but it's more like D5 in English terms in terms of playing standards.

Possibly people here have already run across these websites.  They try to quantify the standings of teams and leagues.  This first one assigns a calculated ranking to each team from a decent number of leagues:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/global-club-rankings/

This second one takes the first one's rankings and makes it easy to compare leagues:

https://www.globalfootballrankings.com/

They don't do the CPL.  If you believe, as I do, that the CPL is likely somewhere around the USL then, if these guys are correct, that also puts it somewhere around the level of the English D3.  You can assign whatever error bars you want to that.

[Ansem]

@Ozzie_the_parrot

Destroyer of threads strikes again. Again your problem is you aren't contributing to the conversation - just rehashing the same tired arguments over and over again.

Starting to think my ex doing that wasn't so bad after all...goddamn

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

On 2/17/2022 at 9:18 PM, Kingston said:

Possibly people here have already run across these websites...

I'm going by what I see in youtube highlights. Something some people on here might not be aware of is that the money that gets paid at the top end of D5 in England (& Wales) can be surprisingly high:

Would have been nice if Ryan Reynolds had splurged on Canadian soccer rather than Wrexham.

[Big_M]

#parrotout

[K Edgar]

I believe the new L1BC is considered on par with the L1O and PLSQ and if so will the L1BC Champion be included in next year Canadian Championship?  With L1O's growth perhaps they add a 2nd team to the championship?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

99% sure that's what will happen where the L1BC champion is concerned but can't find a link that confirms it.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:56 PM, K Edgar said:

I believe the new L1BC is considered on par with the L1O and PLSQ and if so will the L1BC Champion be included in next year Canadian Championship?  With L1O's growth perhaps they add a 2nd team to the championship?

I appreciate scheduling difficulties, but I would really like to see the L1O and similar leagues doing their previous rounds for the Voyageur's Cup, so that effectively everyone is involved more directly.

Just classifying the winner of each league is fine; that means that, in essence, everyone is playing the Canadian Championship in every league match. 

But if teams could be playing knock-out rounds earlier on in their respective provinces, that would be a way to broaden the competition, which was always our intent in creating the Cup.

Problem as I say is scheduling. Last season pre-Covid and with the CPL active, 2019, we started in mid-May with the top semi-pro sides, Vaughn and Blainville.

 

 

[K Edgar]

31 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I appreciate scheduling difficulties, but I would really like to see the L1O and similar leagues doing their previous rounds for the Voyageur's Cup, so that effectively everyone is involved more directly.

Just classifying the winner of each league is fine; that means that, in essence, everyone is playing the Canadian Championship in every league match. 

But if teams could be playing knock-out rounds earlier on in their respective provinces, that would be a way to broaden the competition, which was always our intent in creating the Cup.

Problem as I say is scheduling. Last season pre-Covid and with the CPL active, 2019, we started in mid-May with the top semi-pro sides, Vaughn and Blainville.

 

 

Something like the English FA Cup where ~500 amateur and semi-pro teams compete in the preliminary and qualifying rounds for a chance to play the pro teams.  (This year's example is "Boreham Wood" travelling to Everton)  I like the idea.  Of course the sheer size of Canada makes this more difficult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021–22_FA_Cup_qualifying_rounds

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If the amateur national champion qualified in a similar manner to the L1O and PLSQ champions, you would effectively have that unfolding over two seasons in a Canadian context:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_Trophy

AFAIA both Boreham Wood and Kidderminster Harriers (who almost knocked out West Ham United) are fully professional. The smaller semi-pro clubs that make it through the qualifying rounds usually get knocked out by lower division EFL sides in the first two rounds before the Premiership sides enter the competition.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:56 AM, K Edgar said:

I believe the new L1BC is considered on par with the L1O and PLSQ and if so will the L1BC Champion be included in next year Canadian Championship?  With L1O's growth perhaps they add a 2nd team to the championship?

L1BC's champ will definitely be in.

I do see the CSA slowly expanding the D3/amateur part of the tournament over time.  Right now it is still financially daunting for a lot of the lower level teams to participate.  Guelph has to spend $10 000 just to prep the field for one home game for this year's Canadian Championship (removing football lines and so on to meet the field requirements).  That's big money for teams like them and that's even without worrying about a road trip to Halifax or Vancouver.