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2022 Voyageurs Cup


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16 hours ago, Trois Reds said:

So, even though Vancouver hasn't beaten a CPL team yet, they are treated as a higher tier than Pacific or Forge, last year's losing semifinalists?  ...

...or maybe the journalist simply missed that detail out. Two out of three aint bad as Meatloaf used to put it in terms of MLS teams getting the byes.

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On 1/29/2022 at 6:30 PM, Trois Reds said:

So, even though Vancouver hasn't beaten a CPL team yet, they are treated as a higher tier than Pacific or Forge, last year's losing semifinalists?  They don't deserve the bye.

The CSA considering the CPL as Division 1, my butt. Ridiculous.

You could make the argument that the Whitecaps don't deserve a bye based on last year's performance. 

Or you could simply say that the MLS teams join in a later round based on the relative positions of the leagues overall instead of looking at specific teams each year. 

As the tournament continues to expand and to include more D3 teams, I could see the CSA simply deciding on a league-based entry format.  It's a common format for similar tournaments in other countries.

 

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22 hours ago, Kingston said:

You could make the argument that the Whitecaps don't deserve a bye based on last year's performance. 

Or you could simply say that the MLS teams join in a later round based on the relative positions of the leagues overall instead of looking at specific teams each year. 

As the tournament continues to expand and to include more D3 teams, I could see the CSA simply deciding on a league-based entry format.  It's a common format for similar tournaments in other countries.

 

Except what are the relative positions of the leagues? CPL is considered top tier. If you are going to rank one top tier league against another top tier league, then you better have a fair way of doing so, like a coefficient system like what is used in continental competitions based on results. It's not fair to just say MLS is higher because they spend more money. Set out the parameters you are using to determine which of the leagues is considered a higher level, just in case someday things change and it becomes more debatable which is the higher 1st tier league.

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3 hours ago, Kent said:

Except what are the relative positions of the leagues? CPL is considered top tier. 

The CPL is a D1 league if that's what you mean.  So is MLS.  So is the EPL.  That doesn't make the three leagues equal on the field.

3 hours ago, Kent said:

If you are going to rank one top tier league against another top tier league, then you better have a fair way of doing so, like a coefficient system like what is used in continental competitions based on results. 

In the Canadian Championship, the history of all games between MLS and CPL teams has a record of 7-2-2 in favour of MLS.  (For the curious, this is the same ratio as the record of MLS teams against all non-MLS teams in the entire history of the Canadian Championship.)  I don't think any rational person could conclude anything but MLS being above the CPL.  If expressing that as co-efficients makes you feel better, go ahead.  Possibly the CSA has even done that without publishing the numbers but most likely they realized an exact calculation wasn't necessary to get the answer.

So if the CSA wanted to slot teams in by league for the sake of convenience, this is the obvious way to do it.  It also happens to work out very nicely for an eight team second round.  That will certainly change in the future at which point the format probably will, too.  Much like how at one point the two D3 teams played each other in a preliminary round to make the numbers nice.

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10 hours ago, Kingston said:

The CPL is a D1 league if that's what you mean.  So is MLS.  So is the EPL.  That doesn't make the three leagues equal on the field.

In the Canadian Championship, the history of all games between MLS and CPL teams has a record of 7-2-2 in favour of MLS.  (For the curious, this is the same ratio as the record of MLS teams against all non-MLS teams in the entire history of the Canadian Championship.) 

It doesn't make them equal on the field, but it does, and should, make them equal in the Cup as D1 leagues. It's also technically 6-2-3; the Forge/CF Montreal semi last year should be considered a shootout tie.

In the Canadian Championship, Vancouver is 0-2-1 against CPL teams.  Don't rank each league against each other, rank each team individually.  Vancouver has played badly, so they should drop. Forge and Pacific won last year, so they should rise. It should be on a club-by-club and year-over-year basis, especially if both CPL and MLS are considered joint D1 leagues in Canada.

The EPL is the only D1 league in the FA Cup. This is very much apples and oranges. The only real comparison in the world is the Indian Super Cup, where they have two leagues in India. The ISL has more money and its champion gets the better international slot (AFC Champion's League versus AFC Cup), but the I-League gets equal footing in the Super Cup draws.

The last time the Whitecaps won a game in the Voyageurs Cup was in the semifinal against the Impact in 2018, before the CPL existed. Since then, Cavalry, Halifax, York, Forge, Pacific, and Valour have all moved further along in the competition than Vancouver, but the Whitecaps may get the early bye. That's my issue.

Edited by Trois Reds
Fixed some errors; added Pacific (oops!)
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13 hours ago, Trois Reds said:

It's also technically 6-2-3; the Forge/CF Montreal semi last year should be considered a shootout tie.

I really like the Canadian Championship so I've been keeping some stats on it from the beginning.  I actually debated recording the shootout as a draw.  Ultimately, I left it as a win because it was simpler and, mainly, because Montreal did win and advance to the next round.  But call it what you will - I'm not some sort of official record keeper.  And, either way, my point was that the MLS teams have a definitively better record in MLS-CPL contests.

13 hours ago, Trois Reds said:

It doesn't make them equal on the field, but it does, and should, make them equal in the Cup as D1 leagues...

In the Canadian Championship, Vancouver is 0-2-1 against CPL teams.  Don't rank each league against each other, rank each team individually...

Since then, Cavalry, Halifax, York, Forge, Pacific, and Valour have all moved further along in the competition than Vancouver, but the Whitecaps may get the early bye. That's my issue.

And that's a perfectly valid opinion and would be a perfectly valid option for the CSA to use in allocating the teams.  In fact, in 2019 the CSA did consider individual teams when setting up the bracket.  This year they appear to have allocated by league instead.  There isn't a right and a wrong way for the CSA to set up the tournament but instead a bunch of different possible options (teams, leagues, past five years' performance, geographically, random draw, etc.).

The thing to remember is that the tournament is still growing quickly.  For the past few years and for the next few years we have, and will, be seeing more teams.  Eventually it will settle down into something like a permanent format.  For now, however, the CSA's primary goal is going to be to set up a bracket that works (gets us to a round of 8 somehow or maybe in the future a round of 16).  So for now they're going to do that first and then backwards justify how they got there.  Like how in 2019 Edmonton, Forge, and Valour suddenly became the CPL's "original three" to explain them entering in the second round.  We all know it was just to make the bracket work.

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5 hours ago, Kingston said:

I really like the Canadian Championship so I've been keeping some stats on it from the beginning.  I actually debated recording the shootout as a draw.  Ultimately, I left it as a win because it was simpler and, mainly, because Montreal did win and advance to the next round.  But call it what you will - I'm not some sort of official record keeper.  And, either way, my point was that the MLS teams have a definitively better record in MLS-CPL contests.

And that's a perfectly valid opinion and would be a perfectly valid option for the CSA to use in allocating the teams.  In fact, in 2019 the CSA did consider individual teams when setting up the bracket.  This year they appear to have allocated by league instead.  There isn't a right and a wrong way for the CSA to set up the tournament but instead a bunch of different possible options (teams, leagues, past five years' performance, geographically, random draw, etc.).

The thing to remember is that the tournament is still growing quickly.  For the past few years and for the next few years we have, and will, be seeing more teams.  Eventually it will settle down into something like a permanent format.  For now, however, the CSA's primary goal is going to be to set up a bracket that works (gets us to a round of 8 somehow or maybe in the future a round of 16).  So for now they're going to do that first and then backwards justify how they got there.  Like how in 2019 Edmonton, Forge, and Valour suddenly became the CPL's "original three" to explain them entering in the second round.  We all know it was just to make the bracket work.

Fair enough. Those are all valid points. Maybe the new Champion's League in 2024 will cause more changes too.

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33 minutes ago, Trois Reds said:

Maybe the new Champion's League in 2024 will cause more changes too.

I don't think it will cause changes in the Canadian Championship, but the new CCL format is another good example of there not being a right or wrong way for the CSA to do things. 

The CSA has announced that they will give two of Canada's three slots directly to CPL teams and the third to the Canadian Championship winner.

Personally, I think this is a bad idea.  These are high level games, exposing our players to the types of environments they will see in national team games in Central America.  Our Canada-based national team members are playing on our MLS teams, not our CPL teams.  I say give those games to our MLS guys who are NT now, not some CPL kid who might possibly make it one day.  If he does one day get that high, his time for these games will come then.

I'd give on slot to the Canadian Championship winner, one to our highest ranked MLS team, and maybe one to the CPL champion as a throw away (or maybe the CC runner up instead).

I think my approach is logical and makes better use of our slots than the CSA's plan.  But it doesn't mean one approach is somehow the only correct one.  Presumably the CSA has good reasons for sending CPL teams into the CCL as cannon fodder rather than sending our strongest clubs.

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I think Forge's showing in Central America the last two years shows what a CPL club can do.  And if the draw goes their way, there will be the odd time a CPL team will get to the second round.  I personally think it's great to have exposure to different playing environments earlier, and some of these players can be scouted directly by Mexican or MLS teams. 

 

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3 hours ago, Kingston said:

I don't think it will cause changes in the Canadian Championship, but the new CCL format is another good example of there not being a right or wrong way for the CSA to do things. 

And yet the Voyageurs Cup format changes every couple of years! :)

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some tweaks - and we'll be debating if they were caused by this, that, or the other.

2 hours ago, Trois Reds said:

I think Forge's showing in Central America the last two years shows what a CPL club can do. 

Forge, Toronto, and Montreal got the bys last year - no reason to think that a CPL team wouldn't get in the future.

Interestingly, all teams with a by advanced to semis.

Edited by nfitz
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17 hours ago, nfitz said:

And yet the Voyageurs Cup format changes every couple of years! :)

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some tweaks - and we'll be debating if they were caused by this, that, or the other.

There will be tweaks in the Voyageurs Cup as the tournament continues to grow.  I just don't think they'll be due to the new CCL format.

17 hours ago, nfitz said:

Forge, Toronto, and Montreal got the bys last year - no reason to think that a CPL team wouldn't get in the future.

CPL teams got byes in 2019 and one was going to get a bye in 2020.  I suspect future versions of the tournament will also see CPL teams getting byes.  Like I wrote earlier, it's all about making the bracket work.

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On 2/8/2022 at 9:05 AM, RJB said:

It's embarrassing that they would give preferential treatment to foreign league teams.  Don't forget that these are teams owned (51%) by an American league, so really they're American teams playing in Canada.

Why would the CSA allow the CPL to be subjugated in this way‽

 

Absolutely!  I mean, sure the MLS teams proved that high level club soccer could work in Canada and are the reason investors were willing to give the CPL a try.  And, yes, they spend more on Canadian soccer every year than the CPL and the CSA combined.  And, okay, they are a key step in our NT player development scheme, giving past and present players a place to play.  And their level of play is objectively higher than the CPL but, hey, let's not seed them higher than CPL teams because that would be an embarrassment.

And while we're on the topic of foreign embarrassments - when is the CPL going to give Atletico the heave-ho?  I mean, a 100% Spanish-owned team right in our nation's capital!  It's even literally named after a foreign team instead of something Canadian like the Ottawa Beavertails!  Talk about embarrassing!

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12 hours ago, Kingston said:

Absolutely!  I mean, sure the MLS teams proved that high level club soccer could work in Canada and are the reason investors were willing to give the CPL a try.  And, yes, they spend more on Canadian soccer every year than the CPL and the CSA combined.  And, okay, they are a key step in our NT player development scheme, giving past and present players a place to play.  And their level of play is objectively higher than the CPL but, hey, let's not seed them higher than CPL teams because that would be an embarrassment.

And while we're on the topic of foreign embarrassments - when is the CPL going to give Atletico the heave-ho?  I mean, a 100% Spanish-owned team right in our nation's capital!  It's even literally named after a foreign team instead of something Canadian like the Ottawa Beavertails!  Talk about embarrassing!

Calling CPL Division 1 and treating them like Division 2 is the embarrassment.  Call it like it is, MLS is Canada's Division 1 and CPL is Division 2 with no chance of promotion.  Stop pretending it isn't.

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I missed the beginning of this topic, but for the record it's not the Whitecaps that should be seeded lower, it's TFC.  The CSA tends to look at where a team finished in it's respective league last year, not in the Cup.  And on that basis, TFC (as the lowest finishing MLS team) would be the one demoted to earlier in the competition, not the Whitecaps.

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2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I missed the beginning of this topic, but for the record it's not the Whitecaps that should be seeded lower, it's TFC.  The CSA tends to look at where a team finished in it's respective league last year, not in the Cup.  And on that basis, TFC (as the lowest finishing MLS team) would be the one demoted to earlier in the competition, not the Whitecaps.

I wish - then we'd get more local derby games against one of the other 3 local teams in the Voyageurs Cup.

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13 hours ago, Trois Reds said:

Calling CPL Division 1 and treating them like Division 2 is the embarrassment.  Call it like it is, MLS is Canada's Division 1 and CPL is Division 2 with no chance of promotion.  Stop pretending it isn't.

I think the problem is that people get hung up on the label (D1, D2) rather than focusing on the level of play.  So they get insulted that the D1 league isn't automatically given deference due to its label.  Whereas a more logical (to me) approach is to focus on the actual level of play regardless of the labels.  

Really, the labels are a way to rank leagues within a country but aren't necessarily meaningful when comparing leagues based in different countries.  Our D1 is probably the equivalent to the American D2 and the English D3.

 

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