Harry Paton

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, jordan said:

Case dropped

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/spfl-star-walks-free-court-29022997

Good news in the context of our national team. What does this mean for his immediate club career? Is he in the position to sign somewhere this January? Does he realistically have to wait until next Euro season starts? Any chance he gets back on the NT radar in 2023? At best he was nibbling around the edges, so these 6 months or so he spent out really push him back, I imagine.

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Good news in the context of our national team. What does this mean for his immediate club career? Is he in the position to sign somewhere this January? Does he realistically have to wait until next Euro season starts? Any chance he gets back on the NT radar in 2023? At best he was nibbling around the edges, so these 6 months or so he spent out really push him back, I imagine.

6 months feels short to me. I think the original article about the charges were september 2021. However, thats not the same date he stopped playing, i think....

Does anyone know when he last was training/playing? 

Surely Loturi has passed him now and loturi seems a ways off the CMNT.

[narduch]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Good news in the context of our national team. What does this mean for his immediate club career? Is he in the position to sign somewhere this January? Does he realistically have to wait until next Euro season starts? Any chance he gets back on the NT radar in 2023? At best he was nibbling around the edges, so these 6 months or so he spent out really push him back, I imagine.

Pretty sure he would be a free transfer and could sign anywhere immediately.

The rest of the world doesn't have stupid rules like MLS.

With Ross County struggling I bet he re-signs with them? Or does he try to sign somewhere else to move away from this story?

Surely another SPL club would sign him. Would be hilarious if it was St. Johnstone.

[Obinna]

Just now, Bigandy said:

6 months feels short to me. I think the original article about the charges were september 2021. However, thats not the same date he stopped playing, i think....

Does anyone know when he last was training/playing? 

Surely Loturi has passed him now and loturi seems a ways off the CMNT.

I know there is a lot of love for Loturi. I like the guy too. Cavalry are my local team. But I will say this: I am not sure Loturi is better than Paton. Ahead of him? No doubt. Harry obviously hasn't been playing so we cannot say otherwise. When he was playing though he was the best midfielder at Ross County, arguably. They play in the same areas, but I recall Paton being more technical than Loturi. A little bit of a different profile, with a bit more of an attacking instinct than Loturi.

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

Pretty sure he would be a free transfer and could sign anywhere immediately.

The rest of the world doesn't have stupid rules like MLS.

With Ross County struggling I bet he re-signs with them? Or does he try to sign somewhere else to move away from this story?

Surely another SPL club would sign him. Would be hilarious if it was St. Johnstone.

I have all the same thoughts, basically. He might just want to get out of there. At the same time, Ross County would be an easy choice to get back into the groove, maybe on a short term contract. He would obviously help them avoid relegation.

I am concerned about the mental toll it may have taken on him after reading that article. I also wonder to what extent he kept training and kept in shape.

[WheatsheafSK]

19 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Good news in the context of our national team. What does this mean for his immediate club career? Is he in the position to sign somewhere this January? Does he realistically have to wait until next Euro season starts? Any chance he gets back on the NT radar in 2023? At best he was nibbling around the edges, so these 6 months or so he spent out really push him back, I imagine.

At first I was thinking that his career was over, at least in Scotland.  After Goodwillie and Raith's resoundingly poor judgement last year, I assume there is a chill on signing anyone with a hint of controversy.  However, after seeing the allegations laid out in that story, I do feel bad for him.  Geez, I once threw an omelet into the sink while arguing with my wife (admittedly not my finest moment) - but that would be on par with those allegations.   The omelet in the sink did end the fight as we both start laughing at how ridiculous it was.   

Edited January 24, 2023 by WheatsheafSK

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I know there is a lot of love for Loturi. I like the guy too. Cavalry are my local team. But I will say this: I am not sure Loturi is better than Paton. Ahead of him? No doubt. Harry obviously hasn't been playing so we cannot say otherwise. When he was playing though he was the best midfielder at Ross County, arguably. They play in the same areas, but I recall Paton being more technical than Loturi. A little bit of a different profile, with a bit more of an attacking instinct than Loturi.

Loturi seems to have the hype train going after peter galindos comments. 

At patons best, he was just on the cusp of the CMNT. Loturi has never been there. The CMNT has better depth now and loturi is several years younger. My guess is loturi has a higher ceiling than a 24 out of form paton. Im not optimistic that either will become CMNT regulars. 

My guess is a guy like M johnston, rutty, nelson, priso, zouhir all have a higher likelihood of cracking the CMNT midfield depth charts. 

[narduch]

According to Fotmob his last match was May 14, 2022 v Dundee United in the SPL.

 

[Kadenge]

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Loturi seems to have the hype train going after peter galindos comments. 

At patons best, he was just on the cusp of the CMNT. Loturi has never been there. The CMNT has better depth now and loturi is several years younger. My guess is loturi has a higher ceiling than a 24 out of form paton. Im not optimistic that either will become CMNT regulars. 

My guess is a guy like M johnston, rutty, nelson, priso, zouhir all have a higher likelihood of cracking the CMNT midfield depth charts. 

We'll see I guess. I do agree with you about Galindo and the Loturi-hype train. It felt a little bit off to me at the time and it still does. I think we may be getting ahead of ourselves on Loturi a bit, but time will tell.

As for those players and our depth chart? Well, Nelson is already there! He has 4 caps and those other guys have 0. Priso has been to a single camp if memory serves me correct. I think Rutty may have been involved in two camps. Zouhir has been to zero and M Johnston shouldn't even be in this conversation. If he wasn't Allistair's brother he wouldn't be. 

Back to Loturi vs Paton: Agreed that neither is likely to be a core player anytime soon, if ever. Both can however go onto have nice little careers where they collect a dozen or so caps. Reliable depth guys who can come in and do a job. If both of them can achieve that it will be a job well done and a boost to our program.

Out of all the names mentioned in this post, I think Nelson and Rutty are going to be the ones who go on to have the longest national team careers.

[frmr]

Bizarre situation overall.

[InglewoodJack]

18 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

My guess is a guy like M johnston, rutty, nelson, priso, zouhir all have a higher likelihood of cracking the CMNT midfield depth charts. 

I think you're right about everyone but Alistair's brother. At the end of the day- what is the purpose of Paton on the NT? He's depth for if we have a series of injuries or half the squad gets wiped out with covid or something, but in a case like that, either you're playing a minnow or the game is a throwaway, and in that case, I just don't know what Paton provides that any of our MLS prospects can't provide, plus they have the better upside.

Even a player like Zouhir- by the time Paton finds a club, assuming it's at a respectable level, by the time he gets up to form, Zouhir should be playing regular minutes for a better team in a better league- that would leave Paton in the dust. That's not to mention a regular starter like Nelson, and guys like JMR and Priso who have played significant minutes in a far better league.

I think our talent pool is deep enough for us to not need to call up various players in europe simply because we need professional players on the pitch. The difference between a replacement level player playing in a mid tier league and a promising young player is negligible in the grand scheme, and beyond all of the players named, there is always a dual national to give a roster spot to if all else fails.

[jordan]

Not going to quote tweet multiple, but while comparing Loturi to Paton you are comparing two different styles.

[Obinna]

Just now, jordan said:

Not going to quote tweet multiple, but while comparing Loturi to Paton you are comparing two different styles.

Absolutelty see the same thing...

36 minutes ago, Obinna said:

They play in the same areas, but I recall Paton being more technical than Loturi. A little bit of a different profile, with a bit more of an attacking instinct than Loturi.

 

 

[jordan]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

Absolutelty see the same thing...

 

 

Missed that one, good call out

[Shway]

25 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Some need to be reminded of this, a few here were heavily criticizing him with just simple journo reports.
Let me find them and at them. 

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think you're right about everyone but Alistair's brother. At the end of the day- what is the purpose of Paton on the NT? He's depth for if we have a series of injuries or half the squad gets wiped out with covid or something, but in a case like that, either you're playing a minnow or the game is a throwaway, and in that case, I just don't know what Paton provides that any of our MLS prospects can't provide, plus they have the better upside.

Even a player like Zouhir- by the time Paton finds a club, assuming it's at a respectable level, by the time he gets up to form, Zouhir should be playing regular minutes for a better team in a better league- that would leave Paton in the dust. That's not to mention a regular starter like Nelson, and guys like JMR and Priso who have played significant minutes in a far better league.

I think our talent pool is deep enough for us to not need to call up various players in europe simply because we need professional players on the pitch. The difference between a replacement level player playing in a mid tier league and a promising young player is negligible in the grand scheme, and beyond all of the players named, there is always a dual national to give a roster spot to if all else fails.

I think we need to pump the brakes on Zouhir more than we need to pump the brakes on Loturi. Zouhir has everything to prove and hasn't achieved anything yet. Paton has played like a hundred games in the SPL. I think your points in general are fair, we don't need to call guys just because they are playing in Europe and we need to field pro players. I also don't think Paton is the one to be throwing in that bucket. That's a little disrespectful if you are asking me. Before all this legal hoopla we were anticipating a healthy step up the ladder for him because he was standing out with his SPL side. If he can recapture that form we potentially have another solid player to choose from. For all we know Zouhir will be sent down to the Montreal reserve team or elsewhere looking for minutes, or he could end up like Okello. Hopefully not but is it a slam dunk he gets a ton of minutes this season Montreal? I dont see it.

[frmr]

5 minutes ago, Shway said:

Some need to be reminded of this, a few here were heavily criticizing him with just simple journo reports.
Let me find them and at them. 

This is a legal principle. In a perfect world it would pertain to the court of public opinion as well, but, you know, human nature.

[Shway]

Just now, frmr said:

This is a legal principle. In a perfect world it would pertain to the court of public opinion as well, but, you know, human nature.

ooh you knew it was coming, since you were someone I was going to quote for your statement (wasn't that bad) 😉
"not sure that's the kind of person you'd want in the national team setup... 

[Shway]

34 minutes ago, Shway said:

Some need to be reminded of this, a few here were heavily criticizing him with just simple journo reports.
Let me find them and at them. 

 @Pottsy3 ultimately said in summary that even if he gets off, it doesn't mean he's innocent.

@InglewoodJack had the most shocking things to say, and this was the worst....

Quote

" that’s a piece of trash who felt he could get away with it. I do agree to at he deserves whatever is coming his way, hope Scotland’s courts do well by his ex."

So any opinions you have about him are skewed because you clearly would've sent him to jail...right?

Edited January 24, 2023 by Shway

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think we need to pump the brakes on Zouhir more than we need to pump the brakes on Loturi. Zouhir has everything to prove and hasn't achieved anything yet. Paton has played like a hundred games in the SPL. I think your points in general are fair, we don't need to call guys just because they are playing in Europe and we need to field pro players. I also don't think Paton is the one to be throwing in that bucket. That's a little disrespectful if you are asking me. Before all this legal hoopla we were anticipating a healthy step up the ladder for him because he was standing out with his SPL side. If he can recapture that form we potentially have another solid player to choose from. For all we know Zouhir will be sent down to the Montreal reserve team or elsewhere looking for minutes, or he could end up like Okello. Hopefully not but is it a slam dunk he gets a ton of minutes this season Montreal? I dont see it.

I guess part of my bias against Zouhir is that I was unimpressed with his U-20 play. He wasn't bad and he was better than most of the players we had, but he wasn't remarkable in any way. The word "adequate" comes to mind, though. 

Hopefully this season with Montreal I will get a glimps into why he is highly rated by some.

[frmr]

Just now, Shway said:

ooh you knew it was coming, since you were someone I was going to quote for your statement (wasn't that bad) 😉
"not sure that's the kind of person you'd want in the national team setup... 

I have no issue with you quoting me. I fully stand by making that statement at the time. Someone in the midst of a criminal trial is definitely not someone you want in the national team setup. I think that's obvious. Someone who has had a criminal case against them dropped, that's a different story, though I'm sure many will still have questions.

Also, just because the case was dropped doesn't mean he didn't do some of those things, it just means that prosecutors didn't have a winnable case. Only two people know the absolute truth of what happened. I'm not making any assumptions either way. Rightly or wrongly, there will likely still be questions hanging over him.

Nevertheless, let me take a moment on behalf of us all to offer a humble wave to @Shwayfrom the lowly muddy ground as he triumphantly parades around on his tall horse.

[RS]

8 minutes ago, Shway said:

@Pottsy3 ultimately said even said in summary that even if he gets off, it doesn't mean he's innocent.

I'm not saying Paton's innocent or guilty as I don't know enough about the case to have an opinion (which would be worthless either way), but what @Pottsy3 said isn't incorrect. Lots of people get away with crimes.

[Shway]

16 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think we need to pump the brakes on Zouhir more than we need to pump the brakes on Loturi. Zouhir has everything to prove and hasn't achieved anything yet. Paton has played like a hundred games in the SPL. I think your points in general are fair, we don't need to call guys just because they are playing in Europe and we need to field pro players. I also don't think Paton is the one to be throwing in that bucket. That's a little disrespectful if you are asking me. Before all this legal hoopla we were anticipating a healthy step up the ladder for him because he was standing out with his SPL side. If he can recapture that form we potentially have another solid player to choose from. For all we know Zouhir will be sent down to the Montreal reserve team or elsewhere looking for minutes, or he could end up like Okello. Hopefully not but is it a slam dunk he gets a ton of minutes this season Montreal? I dont see it.

And this has been my point about the national team. 
It's about the NOW, and less about the FUTURE. The national team isn't a club team, we don't have time for guys to be called up, with no intention of utilizing because we are waiting for them to develop. Development doesn't happen at the national team. 

I've said many times, current form should trump potential regardless of the level you are playing at (except if you are in a top 5 league). A guy playing in the Swiss D1 with 1g, 3a in 1,651 minutes shouldn't be a clear and obvious choice over a guy performing in the Dutch D2 league with 7g, 5a in 1,511 minutes. (this is the sentiment of many here)

Especially if a guy who plays in the German D2 can be slotted in over a guy who was playing and performing and included in team of the weeks in the Greek D1 and has more caps for Canada.

Whether you're in Europe, or North America it should only matter if your 1.  their playing 2. their form 3. then the level. 

[dyslexic nam]

Innocent until proven guilty still holds true - but there are also lots of guilty people found “innocent” in a court of law because the case cannot be proven to the required burden of proof (which is high in criminal cases).  Just like it is over the top to be calling for the guy’s head over unproven allegations, it is also a bit much to suddenly assume he is an angel because the charges were dropped.  Sometimes people are falsely accused of a crime - but sometimes victims choose to just walk away to avoid additional pain, prosecutors recognize they don’t have sufficient evidence to get a conviction etc.  There was a serious and lengthy list of allegations over a long period of time and while I suspect a needy club might take a flyer on him to help get results, I also think the CSA would consider it pretty carefully before inviting him back into the national fold.  Allegations of domestic abuse are not something they would take lightly - whether proven or not - especially given the gender pay issue and allegations of abuse (e.g. Whitecaps) that have come up in recent years.   Fair or not, this will have lingering effects.