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Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

The comparison would be that historically the courts have just assumed a woman was lying, such as when denouncing abuse. In rape cases it was assumed and even became legal precedent in many legal cultures, even today, that a women was guilty of provocation. In psychological analysis the case histories are full of women denouncing abuse and therapists explaining it away as fantasy. A woman was also assumed to be lying about specific physical ailments, many of which are still not recognised legally. 

The entire weight of the law, and the social system, is historically biased towards denying the validity of a woman's claims, whether of a legal, psychological or medical nature. 

So I think the parallel you are trying to draw doesn't work. 

The parallel I am drawing came from the heart. You should know what I am talking about. You and I have privately discussed such things in the past and you were sympathetic to them at the time.

A person of colour who has been in a situation where they were accused of something they were not guilty of because of the colour of their skin would relate to the comparison I made. And even if such a person were never in that situation, they would still be aware of that possibility.

I do see your point about how women's claims have historically not been taken seriously enough. It's a very valid point, but that doesn't invalidate the parallel I drew or the need in for presuming innocence before guilt. Presuming innocence until being proven guilty is a standard that everyone deserves. That doesn't invalidate the historical challenges women have had with having their claims go unheard. 

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7 minutes ago, Pottsy3 said:

I don't always agree with you UT, but thank you. Fuck ya. Leaving it at this.

 

Conviction is hard, and that case was an example where there was no conviction but you'd be hard pressed to suggest that he isn't a POS. 

Forums like these and twitter tend to side with whoever they feel most convenient (oftentimes the male in SA cases, and especially when it's a public figure that they'd have bias towards). My reply was to an initial comment (from another user) in which he claimed "due process" yet was making suggestions about why a women could be to blame. I get not wanting to jump to conclusions, but only a small fraction of assaults are false accusations, and that fraction feels like nothing compared to the frequency at which victims are blamed in trials with a heavy public following.

I can't speak to Twitter because I don't use it, but I take your word for it.

The bolded part is really speaks to the crux of the disagreement, however. What you are saying reads to me like "women could never be lying", because you followed it up with "stories about women lying are exaggerted". Like I said before, I am in no position to say whether that's accurate or not, but to question that is not equivalent to saying that any particular woman is lying and it certainly is not suggesting the women embroiled in this Paton thing is lying, but that's how Inglewood, RS and UT have painted my position and Shway's position on it. Nobody knows if she is or not and that's the honest truth of it.

I personally like to think in this case that both having their own truths on what happened. The courts will decide where the truth is and I hope they come to the right conclusion.

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12 minutes ago, Obinna said:

What you are saying reads to me like "women could never be lying", because you followed it up with "stories about women lying are exaggerted". Like I said before, I am in no position to say whether that's accurate or not, but to question that is not equivalent to saying that any particular woman is lying and it certainly is not suggesting the women embroiled in this Paton thing is lying, but that's how Inglewood, RS and UT have painted my position and Shway's position on it. Nobody knows if she is or not and that's the honest truth of it.

I think there may be something lost in translation. It's not like women's rights movements are meant to be literally taken as "women are always right and men are always wrong", and I'm not naive enough to believe that cases like these do not carry nuance. ie. obviously women CAN lie, but the issue I take is with the amount of sympathy given to accused versus accusers before trials unfold. There's people in this thread calling victim believers "white knights" but also trying to come up with excuses why the victim is likely at fault (not even talking about Shway or Obinna).

Anyways, victim blaming is oftentimes a gendered issue and statistically sexual assaults are very unlikely to go unfounded (which is what I was trying to get across when saying "lying is exaggerated"). The most recent Stats Canada results that I could find showed less than 1 in every 7 of reported sexual assaults are determined to be unfounded. A further statistical anomaly when we realize that only about 5% of sexual assaults go reported to police. My SO works in victimology, and so I'm unfortunately far too familiar with the barriers that victims have to jump through. Yes, men can also be victims of SA, but the statistics are disproportionately gendered and it has become commonplace to see colleagues in the space take the same side time and time again with cases of SA. (not saying either of you took a side btw, speaking in general).

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7 minutes ago, Pottsy3 said:

I think there may be something lost in translation. It's not like women's rights movements are meant to be literally taken as "women are always right and men are always wrong", and I'm not naive enough to believe that cases like these do not carry nuance. ie. obviously women CAN lie, but the issue I take is with the amount of sympathy given to accused versus accusers before trials unfold. There's people in this thread calling victim believers "white knights" but also trying to come up with excuses why the victim is likely at fault (not even talking about Shway or Obinna).

Anyways, victim blaming is oftentimes a gendered issue and statistically sexual assaults are very unlikely to go unfounded (which is what I was trying to get across when saying "lying is exaggerated"). The most recent Stats Canada results that I could find showed less than 1 in every 7 of reported sexual assaults are determined to be unfounded. A further statistical anomaly when we realize that only about 5% of sexual assaults go reported to police. My SO works in victimology, and so I'm unfortunately far too familiar with the barriers that victims have to jump through. Yes, men can also be victims of SA, but the statistics are disproportionately gendered and it has become commonplace to see colleagues in the space take the same side time and time again with cases of SA. (not saying either of you took a side btw, speaking in general).

I am glad you made this post. I think it's perfectly reasonable to take that issue, and it's understandable given your vantage point. And from my vantage point I hope you could see why I am quick to defend the concept of innocent before proven guilty (see my post on coloured people - and all people - deserving that right).

Unfortunately, both of our positions saw us butt heads on this particular issue, since defending the innocent before guilty concept can easily be interepted as excusing the very people we all take issue with - the abusers. I think myself and Shway have gone above and beyond to explain ourselves at this stage, so anyone going out of their way to characterize us negatively is doing so out of laziness or just malintent.

I feel even better about our exchanges now and I like how we were able to engage respectfully and honour our opposing viewpoints without trying to mischaracterize each other.

Cheers brother!

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Guys, the presumption of innocence is a legal right in the context of a criminal trial where the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, which the prosecution bears. I highly doubt anyone on this forum is against that right or that standard of proof.

Public opinion, the Voyageurs forum, and civil trials do not share this concept, though of course in a civil trial the claimant bears the onus to prove their claim on a balance of probabilities (i.e. that their claim happened more likely than not).

If anyone says that they believe the woman in this case and that Harry is shitty, that does not mean they are necessarily against the presumption of innocence. They are making a judgment based on the facts as they know them. Maybe their judgment is wrong, but it doesn't mean they don't believe in fundamental rights.

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7 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Guys, the presumption of innocence is a legal right in the context of a criminal trial where the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, which the prosecution bears. I highly doubt anyone on this forum is against that right or that standard of proof.

Public opinion, the Voyageurs forum, and civil trials do not share this concept, though of course in a civil trial the claimant bears the onus to prove their claim on a balance of probabilities (i.e. that their claim happened more likely than not).

If anyone says that they believe the woman in this case and that Harry is shitty, that does not mean they are necessarily against the presumption of innocence. They are making a judgment based on the facts as they know them. Maybe their judgment is wrong, but it doesn't mean they don't believe in fundamental rights.

That's perfectly fair. I don't expect public opinion, or certainly Voyageurs opinion, to unanimously mirror that legal standard. 

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4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That's perfectly fair. I don't expect public opinion, or certainly Voyageurs opinion, to unanimously mirror that legal standard. 

Then I think everyone in this thread is actually closer in opinion than they think

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