Harry Paton

[RS]

9 minutes ago, frmr said:

Nevertheless, let me take a moment on behalf of us all to offer a humble wave to @Shwayfrom the lowly muddy ground as he triumphantly parades around on his tall horse.

LOL I forgot this was the thread where I was accused of voiding out larger arguments in search of a "gotcha moment" by the same guy who is now triumphantly looking through past comments by those he disagreed with for a "gotcha moment."

[Shway]

11 minutes ago, RS said:

I'm not saying Paton's innocent or guilty as I don't know enough about the case to have an opinion (which would be worthless either way), but what @Pottsy3 said isn't incorrect. Lots of people get away with crimes.

Thanks theres you gotcha moment again!, and once again it doesn't make sense....because I didn't say anything to disagree with that. More so alluding to the point that he was indirectly saying he was guilty. There was other stuff he said in regard to the case. 

Lastly my main point was "people shouldn't be quick to openly condemn others without the proper due process". 

@frmrjust learn from the mistake, that's what life is about.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Shway

[frmr]

3 minutes ago, Shway said:

Thanks theres you gotcha moment again!, and once again it doesn't make sense....because I didn't say anything to disagree with that. More so alluding to the point that he was indirectly saying he was guilty. There was other stuff he said in regard to the case. 

Lastly my main point was "people shouldn't be quick to openly condemn others without the proper due process". 

@frmrjust learn from the mistake, that's what life is about.

Sorry, what mistake is that? I already said I stand by my statement and explained why.

[Shway]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Innocent until proven guilty still holds true - but there are also lots of guilty people found “innocent” in a court of law because the case cannot be proven to the required burden of proof (which is high in criminal cases).  Just like it is over the top to be calling for the guy’s head over unproven allegations, it is also a bit much to suddenly assume he is an angel because the charges were dropped.  Sometimes people are falsely accused of a crime - but sometimes victims choose to just walk away to avoid additional pain, prosecutors recognize they don’t have sufficient evidence to get a conviction etc.  There was a serious and lengthy list of allegations over a long period of time and while I suspect a needy club might take a flyer on him to help get results, I also think the CSA would consider it pretty carefully before inviting him back into the national fold.  Allegations of domestic abuse are not something they would take lightly - whether proven or not - especially given the gender pay issue and allegations of abuse (e.g. Whitecaps) that have come up in recent years.   Fair or not, this will have lingering effects.   

Great points, all true!

I'm well aware of how the court system has failed many, many people. I don't want to take that somewhere else, but you could only imagine where I could go since I did mention Emitt Till earlier in this thread.

However a few things that were told to me....
My granny told me from a little baby, he that keepeths his mouth will stay out of problems. 
My dad preached he without sin, throw the first stone and judge not, unless you want to be judged.

Too many times we are quick to pass quick judgement on people for the truths we will simply never know. Just because a journalist reported something doesn't mean it all to be true. What were the court documents, what was the evidence submitted....if you have received all of this and have an opinion then so be it......but most if not all here haven't. 

So how can I call a man sick, or he deserves jail, or shouldn't be anywhere near the national team based on things he was accused of?

[InglewoodJack]

32 minutes ago, Shway said:

 @Pottsy3 ultimately said in summary that even if he gets off, it doesn't mean he's innocent.

@InglewoodJack had the most shocking things to say, and this was the worst....

So any opinions you have about him are skewed because you clearly would've sent him to jail...right?

My opinion on him is that he's an irrelevant footballer that was not good enough to get onto our national team like many others. If you believe that is an opinion skewed by the fact that he had serious allegations that were thrown out, not proved false, then you're allowed to make that case.

Anyways, surely an innocent man who makes his wages for a bottom table Scotland league and has been out of work for 18 months will take advantage of the UK's very plaintiff friendly defamation laws to prove his innocence and recoup lost wages. We can update this thread when that slam dunk lawsuit is filed, as there shouldn't be any reason it isn't, right?

 

 

[Shway]

47 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

My opinion on him is that he's an irrelevant footballer that was not good enough to get onto our national team like many others. If you believe that is an opinion skewed by the fact that he had serious allegations that were thrown out, not proved false, then you're allowed to make that case.

Forgive me, I'm sorry I stirred the pot....I just find it crazy that some could have this sentiment from not knowing a person personally. But such is life. You're football opinion are completely valid, not that it needed to be.

47 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Anyways, surely an innocent man who makes his wages for a bottom table Scotland league and has been out of work for 18 months will take advantage of the UK's very plaintiff friendly defamation laws to prove his innocence and recoup lost wages. We can update this thread when that slam dunk lawsuit is filed, as there shouldn't be any reason it isn't, right?

Great point, but here's my @RS moment....."he actually was playing for a mid table SPFL team as they finished 5pts outside a Conference league place." 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Shway

[frmr]

2 minutes ago, Shway said:

Great points, all true!

I'm well aware of how the court system has failed many, many people. I don't want to take that somewhere else, but you could only imagine where I could go since I did mention Emitt Till earlier in this thread.

However a few things that were told to me....
My granny told me from a little baby, he that keepeths his mouth will stay out of problems. 
My dad preached he without sin, throw the first stone and judge not, unless you want to be judged.

Too many times we are quick to pass quick judgement on people for the truths we will simply never know. Just because a journalist reported something doesn't mean it all to be true. What were the court documents, what was the evidence submitted....if you have received all of this and have an opinion then so be it......but most if not all here haven't. 

So how can I call a man sick, or he deserves jail, or shouldn't be anywhere near the national team based on things he was accused of?

Good lord man. Your gold sticker is in the mail.

To be honest, what I see from your posts isn't much different to what I see when people on Twitter go back in peoples' timelines and try and find things to cancel them on. Nobody's disagreeing with what you're saying, and you could have summed it up in one simple sentence and gotten your point across, instead of going on this self-important moral tirade. Parables, crucifixions and all.

[RS]

23 minutes ago, Shway said:

Thanks theres you gotcha moment again!, and once again it doesn't make sense....because I didn't say anything to disagree with that.

You're so scattershot with your posts on this topic that of course you'd think what I wrote didn't make sense. You can't even makes sense of your own point.

You used @Pottsy3 as an example (1 of 2) of people "need[ing] to be reminded of" the presumption of innocence as brought up by @Kadenge.

You did so in one of those "gotcha moments" that you purport to hate, yet all Pottsy3 said — and I reiterated — was that guilty people are sometimes found innocent. Which you've since said you don't disagree with it.

If that's the case, then why trudge it back up 6+ months after it was written? Obviously you intended to use it as evidence that you were right and he was wrong... about something.

And now you're dishing out moral life lessons to @frmr, who has been entirely reasonable in his take and expanded on it further today. 

12 minutes ago, Shway said:

Just because a journalist reported something doesn't mean it all to be true.

And here's it is. Your little digs at me (and other writers/journos who have been mentioned in various threads) over the years for my previous profession have shown me that you hold little regard for journalists, which is absolutely your prerogative. It's a free country.

But, to me at least, I find it hypocritical that you'll judge journalists negatively based simply on their job but you'll (metaphorically) fight anyone in here that dares form an opinion on this case because they don't have enough information to fairly do so.

[InglewoodJack]

52 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think we need to pump the brakes on Zouhir more than we need to pump the brakes on Loturi. Zouhir has everything to prove and hasn't achieved anything yet. Paton has played like a hundred games in the SPL. I think your points in general are fair, we don't need to call guys just because they are playing in Europe and we need to field pro players. I also don't think Paton is the one to be throwing in that bucket. That's a little disrespectful if you are asking me. Before all this legal hoopla we were anticipating a healthy step up the ladder for him because he was standing out with his SPL side. If he can recapture that form we potentially have another solid player to choose from. For all we know Zouhir will be sent down to the Montreal reserve team or elsewhere looking for minutes, or he could end up like Okello. Hopefully not but is it a slam dunk he gets a ton of minutes this season Montreal? I dont see it.

My opinion on Zouhir is mostly based on the fact that he's playing for Montreal which is a significantly stronger club in a significantly stronger league than Paton has ever played. Montreal has thinned out its midfield this year and has shown zero indication to be willing to spend to improve it, so Zouhir should have a better shot at getting the minutes he would've gotten last year if not for Kone's unexpected meteoric ascent.

When I'm lumping him in with other european players who we are interested in because they're based in Europe, I don't mean disrespect, I mean moreso like... what's the point in calling him up? Even if we agree that he is better than the list of prospects we have, how large is that gap, and is that gap large enough to not justify bringing in someone younger with potential just to get them in the mix? Would Zouhir's ~15 minute cameo lose Canada a game that Paton would win for us? I'm talking about Zouhir mostly because he's the biggest question mark of all the players mentioned- I see no reason to give Zouhir a roster spot but leave players like JMR or Nelson or even Priso at home, and I'd have Paton behind them.

[RS]

1 minute ago, Shway said:

but here's my RS moment

I'll note that you're the one doing the thing you "hate" in here way more than anyone else.

Oh, and @ me next time.

4 minutes ago, frmr said:

To be honest, what I see from your posts isn't much different to what I see when people on Twitter go back in peoples' timelines and try and find things to cancel them on. Nobody's disagreeing with what you're saying, and you could have summed it up in one simple sentence and gotten your point across, instead of going on this self-important moral tirade. Parables, crucifixions and all.

I believe they call that a @Shway moment.

[InglewoodJack]

3 minutes ago, Shway said:

Forgive me, I'm sorry I stirred the pot....I just find it crazy that some could have this sentiment from not knowing a person personally. But such is life. You're football opinion are completely valid, not that it needed to be.

Great point, but here's my RS moment....."he actually was playing for a mid table SPFL team as they finished 5pts outside a Conference league place." 

The allegations presented against him are extremely expansive, detailed and specific. No point dissecting a now thrown out case, but unless the accuser is a clinical psychopath or has split personality disorder- it's insane to think that someone has created such extremely specific allegations from thin air and perused them in a court of law to ruin her ex boyfriend's life. I can look at that information and determine how I feel about them, especially because I am not a judge, jury, lawyer, journalist, football team owner, so on. Being that this is a forum that has fabricated the most wonderful narratives about Scott Arfield, John Herdman, and the relationship they have with eachother, I think what I said was fair game.

RE: Ross County, that's fair, but realistically, what kind of club would sign him in the form he's in? Surely not a club that would be gunning for Europe, I think his likely step if he stays in Scotland is a move down to the Championship, if he does well, he'll be back where he was a few years back.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

18 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

The allegations presented against him are extremely expansive, detailed and specific.

It is true that it makes them seem more credible.

If let's say ⅓ of them were true, my first impression would be that he has already paid a fair price in damage to his reputation and lost income.

21 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

if he stays in Scotland

I feel like he likely will want a fresh start. Maybe Eastern Europe?

Until he gets a new club.... Paton pending.

[Shway]

40 minutes ago, RS said:

And here's it is. Your little digs at me (and other writers/journos who have been mentioned in various threads)

No, no...no. Not other journo's, leave them out of it. (unless you can call me out on it then cool) just the only one who's active here. I've actually praised the work of Josh Kloke, Daniel Squizz, and Steve Sandor (the11 used to be part of my daily routine). They've all wrote articles that have questioned the systems of Canada soccer when required. And for someone who's a Voyageur, we've never seen you do that even in the midst of questioning times like the Zambrano firing. To hell, we saw Sid Sixerio have a hot take. 

Fairly put, it's just not your style. But it's the reason why I've stated that fluff pieces are preferred to maintain status quo in fear of losing press passes or early inside info.  

40 minutes ago, RS said:

over the years for my previous profession have shown me that you hold little regard for journalists, which is absolutely your prerogative. It's a free country.

But, to me at least, I find it hypocritical that you'll judge journalists negatively based simply on their job but you'll (metaphorically) fight anyone in here that dares form an opinion on this case because they don't have enough information to fairly do so.

lol....okay. I did say "just because a journalist wrote something, doesn't mean it all to be true".....and  thats still a fact. It doesn't mean I hold little regard for journalism, I just know somethings are only reported that will have the best media response (clickbait), and somethings are speculative rather than proven. It's like reading the Sun or the daily mirror. So you can't take one essay as the final say.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Shway

[Obinna]

34 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

My opinion on Zouhir is mostly based on the fact that he's playing for Montreal which is a significantly stronger club in a significantly stronger league than Paton has ever played. Montreal has thinned out its midfield this year and has shown zero indication to be willing to spend to improve it, so Zouhir should have a better shot at getting the minutes he would've gotten last year if not for Kone's unexpected meteoric ascent.

When I'm lumping him in with other european players who we are interested in because they're based in Europe, I don't mean disrespect, I mean moreso like... what's the point in calling him up? Even if we agree that he is better than the list of prospects we have, how large is that gap, and is that gap large enough to not justify bringing in someone younger with potential just to get them in the mix? Would Zouhir's ~15 minute cameo lose Canada a game that Paton would win for us? I'm talking about Zouhir mostly because he's the biggest question mark of all the players mentioned- I see no reason to give Zouhir a roster spot but leave players like JMR or Nelson or even Priso at home, and I'd have Paton behind them.

He's not playing for Montreal though. We can't really say that he plays for a significantly stronger club until he actually does so. Yes, chances are better this year than last, but Piette is still there, Wanyama is still here, and Chioniere is still there. What about Hamdy and Miljevic and Rea? These are all possibilities for the midfield, no? Even if Chioniere and Rea play out wide (very possibly), there are still 4 other players arguably ahead of him, making him 5th on the depth chart. 

To your second point, I get where you are coming from for sure. Those 15 minutes could go to Zouhir rather than Paton in theory, but my problem is that Zouhir is nowhere close to the national team at the moment. If we replace him with Nelson I think your point has merit, and you do mention him so fair enough. I just wouldn't say Zouhir is a question mark, because there's no question mark here - he's not close to the national team whatsoever. Can he play his way on? For sure.

At the end of the day, we can probably both agree there will always be a debate with PRESENT vs. FUTURE

Paton, assuming he can recapture his form, represents the present. Guys like Priso and JMR (and possibly Zouhir) represent the future. I think it has to be case-by-case. If Paton signs back to Ross County, helps them avoid relegation, plays regularly and well, then I want him over those young guys playing spot minutes for their clubs, which are at higher levels. However, if any of them (including Zouhir) can match Paton for minutes, then yes bring the younger guy, give him the chance to develop - by all means.

The skill set and context of the camp matter as well. If we are talking friendlies, I am more inclined in general to lean young, but for Gold Cup or Nations League then I would probably go Paton, all things being equal. I'd have to factor what other players are in the squad as well. If we need more of a deep lying technician, then Paton would fit the bill. If we needed more of a two-way all action midfielder, maybe Priso, Loutri, Zouhir, etc.  

[RS]

25 minutes ago, Shway said:

No, no...no. Not other journo's, leave them out of it. (unless you can call me out on it then cool) just the only one who's active here. I've actually praised the work of Josh Kloke, Daniel Squizz, and Steve Sandor (the11 used to be part of my daily routine). They've all wrote articles that have questioned the systems of Canada soccer when required. And for someone who's a Voyageur, we've never seen you do that even in the midst of questioning times like the Zambrano firing. To hell, we saw Sid Sixerio have a hot take. 

Fairly put, it's just not your style. But it's the reason why I've stated that fluff pieces are preferred to maintain status quo in fear of losing press passes or early inside info.  

...

lol....okay. I did say "just because a journalist wrote something, doesn't mean it all to be true".....and  thats still a fact. It doesn't mean I hold little regard for journalism, I just know somethings are only reported that will have the best media response (clickbait), and somethings are speculative rather than proven. It's like reading the Sun or the daily mirror. So you can't take one essay as the final say.

Luckily for me I'm not here to prove myself to you or anyone, so I'm not going to send you clips (written or audio) to meet your silly paradigms. You seem to follow me enough to have a strong opinion so you can seek those things out if it bothers you that much.

And, really, Seixeiro had a hot take? God love the guy for supporting local soccer but hot takes are literally all he ever has. It's worked out really well for him, and good on him for that, but let's not pretend it's out of character when he goes on a rant.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

Good news in the context of our national team. What does this mean for his immediate club career? Is he in the position to sign somewhere this January? ...

Given the transfer window will be open in most European countries right now it should be a good time to try to find a new club.

[InglewoodJack]

29 minutes ago, Obinna said:

He's not playing for Montreal though. We can't really say that he plays for a significantly stronger club until he actually does so. Yes, chances are better this year than last, but Piette is still there, Wanyama is still here, and Chioniere is still there. What about Hamdy and Miljevic and Rea? These are all possibilities for the midfield, no? Even if Chioniere and Rea play out wide (very possibly), there are still 4 other players arguably ahead of him, making him 5th on the depth chart. 

To your second point, I get where you are coming from for sure. Those 15 minutes could go to Zouhir rather than Paton in theory, but my problem is that Zouhir is nowhere close to the national team at the moment. If we replace him with Nelson I think your point has merit, and you do mention him so fair enough. I just wouldn't say Zouhir is a question mark, because there's no question mark here - he's not close to the national team whatsoever. Can he play his way on? For sure.

At the end of the day, we can probably both agree there will always be a debate with PRESENT vs. FUTURE

Paton, assuming he can recapture his form, represents the present. Guys like Priso and JMR (and possibly Zouhir) represent the future. I think it has to be case-by-case. If Paton signs back to Ross County, helps them avoid relegation, plays regularly and well, then I want him over those young guys playing spot minutes for their clubs, which are at higher levels. However, if any of them (including Zouhir) can match Paton for minutes, then yes bring the younger guy, give him the chance to develop - by all means.

The skill set and context of the camp matter as well. If we are talking friendlies, I am more inclined in general to lean young, but for Gold Cup or Nations League then I would probably go Paton, all things being equal. I'd have to factor what other players are in the squad as well. If we need more of a deep lying technician, then Paton would fit the bill. If we needed more of a two-way all action midfielder, maybe Priso, Loutri, Zouhir, etc.  

He isn't playing for Montreal regularly, no, but Paton is also without a club, hasn't played in a year and a half, and without (for now) any links to any club, let alone one that would give him the type of exposure needed to make our NT. I think Zouhir doing what needs to be done- getting regular minutes for a club for whom he is their "star prospect" is more likely than Harry Paton finding a good club, getting back to form, excelling, all in the time span between now and the Gold Cup. I keep bringing Zouhir up because there's at least an argument that Paton gives you more- I think Nelson or JMR vs. Paton isn't even a question, and I think Priso is ahead of him too. FWIW, I wouldn't expect more than one or two of every name we mentioned to be integrated into the NT this calendar year at absolute most.

I mostly agree with the bolded paragraph, except I have my reservations about whether good form at Ross County is worthy of a call up. He also turned down a contract from them at some point during the legal process, so I'm not sure that a reunion is likely. Interestingly enough, some of the guys you mention as guys Zouhir is going to battle for minutes at Montreal are the same guys who Paton would battle for minutes for Canada- Piette and Choniere, who was called up last year.

For me it's just hard to think of a scenario in which we're digging that deep down our depth chart in a scenario in which we want experience over a negligibly worse younger player. We would need like 4-5 injuries and pretty much all of our young prospects to be simultaneously out of form.

[jordan]

@InglewoodJack it’s 6 months not 18

[InglewoodJack]

6 minutes ago, jordan said:

@InglewoodJack it’s 6 months not 18

My bad I thought he had been out since 2021. May 2022 is almost 9 months ago though.

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

He isn't playing for Montreal regularly, no, but Paton is also without a club, hasn't played in a year and a half, and without (for now) any links to any club, let alone one that would give him the type of exposure needed to make our NT. I think Zouhir doing what needs to be done- getting regular minutes for a club for whom he is their "star prospect" is more likely than Harry Paton finding a good club, getting back to form, excelling, all in the time span between now and the Gold Cup.

I think this is a fair take. I also think it's where I saw it differently.

I wasn't looking at it with the Gold Cup in mind, but when I do I find it hard to disagree with you. Until I hear anything about Paton re-joining the soccer world, I have to say Zouhir breaking through is the more likely of the two - although at this point, I think both scenarios are unlikely. 

A year from now? I'd like to think Paton will be back on track and playing at a level higher than the current Ross County side. Again, right before the legal stuff he was one of the best players on a Ross County side that was challenging for the European places. I find it hard to imagine all that talent vanished.

This is why I was taking the opposite view. I think he was on the cusp of being NT-ready. I guess that's why I think in a year from now, if he can put this all behind him, he'll be much more NT-ready than Zouhir.

Rida could pull a Kone though, to be fair. Nobody saw that coming. Can lightning strike twice? Hopefully it does for Montreal and for Canada!

16 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I mostly agree with the bolded paragraph, except I have my reservations about whether good form at Ross County is worthy of a call up. 

For me it's just hard to think of a scenario in which we're digging that deep down our depth chart in a scenario in which we want experience over a negligibly worse younger player. We would need like 4-5 injuries and pretty much all of our young prospects to be simultaneously out of form.

This was clearly a place we saw it differently too. You had your reservations at that time, but I didn't. I was definitely excited about him coming into the NT for Gold Cup 21. I felt he did enough, and the call was deserved.

Funny enough, he did more than Loturi has done for the same club, yet the majority seem to be anticipating the former Cavalry man will be called sometime this summer. 

[Pottsy3]

 

3 hours ago, Shway said:

 @Pottsy3 ultimately said in summary that even if he gets off, it doesn't mean he's innocent.

@InglewoodJack had the most shocking things to say, and this was the worst....

So any opinions you have about him are skewed because you clearly would've sent him to jail...right?

If you're trying to dunk on me here, I think you fully misread my messages.  I discussed the myth of false accusations being widespread, and the difficulty in being convicted criminally for SA cases. Matters that stand true, regardless of the outcome of this or any particular case. You can see this below:

On 6/24/2022 at 3:31 PM, Pottsy3 said:

I think there may be something lost in translation. It's not like women's rights movements are meant to be literally taken as "women are always right and men are always wrong", and I'm not naive enough to believe that cases like these do not carry nuance. ie. obviously women CAN lie, but the issue I take is with the amount of sympathy given to accused versus accusers before trials unfold. There's people in this thread calling victim believers "white knights" but also trying to come up with excuses why the victim is likely at fault (not even talking about Shway or Obinna).

Anyways, victim blaming is oftentimes a gendered issue and statistically sexual assaults are very unlikely to go unfounded (which is what I was trying to get across when saying "lying is exaggerated"). The most recent Stats Canada results that I could find showed less than 1 in every 7 of reported sexual assaults are determined to be unfounded. A further statistical anomaly when we realize that only about 5% of sexual assaults go reported to police. My SO works in victimology, and so I'm unfortunately far too familiar with the barriers that victims have to jump through. Yes, men can also be victims of SA, but the statistics are disproportionately gendered and it has become commonplace to see colleagues in the space take the same side time and time again with cases of SA. (not saying either of you took a side btw, speaking in general).

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I think this is a fair take. I also think it's where I saw it differently.

I wasn't looking at it with the Gold Cup in mind, but when I do I find it hard to disagree with you. Until I hear anything about Paton re-joining the soccer world, I have to say Zouhir breaking through is the more likely of the two - although at this point, I think both scenarios are unlikely. 

A year from now? I'd like to think Paton will be back on track and playing at a level higher than the current Ross County side. Again, right before the legal stuff he was one of the best players on a Ross County side that was challenging for the European places. I find it hard to imagine all that talent vanished.

This is why I was taking the opposite view. I think he was on the cusp of being NT-ready. I guess that's why I think in a year from now, if he can put this all behind him, he'll be much more NT-ready than Zouhir.

Rida could pull a Kone though, to be fair. Nobody saw that coming. Can lightning strike twice? Hopefully it does for Montreal and for Canada!

This was clearly a place we saw it differently too. You had your reservations at that time, but I didn't. I was definitely excited about him coming into the NT for Gold Cup 21. I felt he did enough, and the call was deserved.

Funny enough, he did more than Loturi has done for the same club, yet the majority seem to be anticipating the former Cavalry man will be called sometime this summer. 

Yeah overall I just think that he has a long ways before he's fit to play for a club, let alone country, and by that time, we're likely looking at 2024, and by then at least one of the players we've been discussing or someone completely new will likely be knocking at the NT door. I'm also skeptical of players who take long breaks- with how quickly players develop, losing 9 months of playing time at the peak of your prime, especially as younger players emerge, both for Canada and for Scotland's league pool.

As for Loturi, I won't lie, I'm hyped on him because of the CPL origins, and I think that's why the pod boys gas him up too. Off the top of my head, he has to be one of our best U23 players in Europe right now who haven't been called up to the national team? I think the expectation for him was that he's going to continue being a starter for Ross County (who escapes relegation), and if that happens, then I think by the time Gold Cup rolls around, he's at least in the conversation, depending on absentees. I won't exactly be upset if he gets left home before showing more, though.

[Obinna]

14 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

As for Loturi, I won't lie, I'm hyped on him because of the CPL origins, and I think that's why the pod boys gas him up too. Off the top of my head, he has to be one of our best U23 players in Europe right now who haven't been called up to the national team? I think the expectation for him was that he's going to continue being a starter for Ross County (who escapes relegation), and if that happens, then I think by the time Gold Cup rolls around, he's at least in the conversation, depending on absentees. I won't exactly be upset if he gets left home before showing more, though.

He's definitely up there. What makes Loutri enticing, aside from the CPL origins, is our relatively lack of depth in midfield. 

Hard to think of other players besides the obvious holdouts, like Jebbison and Koleosho. I guess it's mostly MLS (and CPL), basically. Nelson, Rutty, Priso, Zouhir, Rea, Hasal, Yao, Habibullah, Baldisimo, De Rosario, Pacius....I guess technically Kratt?

 

[Bigandy]

21 hours ago, Obinna said:

At the end of the day, we can probably both agree there will always be a debate with PRESENT vs. FUTURE

 

This is a very interesting debate. I agree that you dont develop players in the national team, but you do develop the squad. familiarity on a personal level and tactical level is very important as is experience (think of a young player whos been on the bench at azteca would be more suited to start the next time compared to someone whos never been there). 

The next point is that a guy like tiebert has a ceiling and he may presently be more useful than zouhir, but tiebert sitting on the bench does not give us a return, where as a zouhir may reach a higher ceiling and provide value to the CMNT at a higher level. Obviously i am cherry picking tiebert to prove a point but paton is not too far off. 

The way I see it, is there should be a minimum standard for the national team. I would say that should be around Osorio/laryea level. Players who meet this threshold are PRESENTLY good enough. This would be about 20ish guys. the remaining 6 spots have to be filled. I believe those 6 spots should go to players with the potential to reach this threshold compared to players who are slightly better but extremely unlikely to make the step up. When out national team pool increases, then the standard will likely move up to a ali johnston level with hopes that our prospects will also improve, allowing the last few roster spots to go to the higher potential guys. (this logic doesnt directly apply to a wc squad as you may want to go with experience and the best form players for the short duration)

I think we all agree that the nelsons, prisos, JMR are more already better than loturi/paton, but i think theres reason to believe that in 6-12 months, zouhir could get into the category of the nelsons. Loturi could as well. I am quietly optimistic about m johnston too (100% because of his bro as ive never seen him play). Paton will likely take some time to find a club and then needs to regain fitness and form so i think the earliest we could even discuss him is next season. At 25, under ideal conditions, is he going to be a better option than zouhir, loturi, m johnston etc? Maybe, but paton moving to the championship at 23/24 is alot different than trying to rebuild a career for ross at 26/27. 

[Obinna]

28 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

This is a very interesting debate. I agree that you dont develop players in the national team, but you do develop the squad. familiarity on a personal level and tactical level is very important as is experience (think of a young player whos been on the bench at azteca would be more suited to start the next time compared to someone whos never been there). 

The next point is that a guy like tiebert has a ceiling and he may presently be more useful than zouhir, but tiebert sitting on the bench does not give us a return, where as a zouhir may reach a higher ceiling and provide value to the CMNT at a higher level. Obviously i am cherry picking tiebert to prove a point but paton is not too far off. 

The way I see it, is there should be a minimum standard for the national team. I would say that should be around Osorio/laryea level. Players who meet this threshold are PRESENTLY good enough. This would be about 20ish guys. the remaining 6 spots have to be filled. I believe those 6 spots should go to players with the potential to reach this threshold compared to players who are slightly better but extremely unlikely to make the step up. When out national team pool increases, then the standard will likely move up to a ali johnston level with hopes that our prospects will also improve, allowing the last few roster spots to go to the higher potential guys. (this logic doesnt directly apply to a wc squad as you may want to go with experience and the best form players for the short duration)

I think we all agree that the nelsons, prisos, JMR are more already better than loturi/paton, but i think theres reason to believe that in 6-12 months, zouhir could get into the category of the nelsons. Loturi could as well. I am quietly optimistic about m johnston too (100% because of his bro as ive never seen him play). Paton will likely take some time to find a club and then needs to regain fitness and form so i think the earliest we could even discuss him is next season. At 25, under ideal conditions, is he going to be a better option than zouhir, loturi, m johnston etc? Maybe, but paton moving to the championship at 23/24 is alot different than trying to rebuild a career for ross at 26/27. 

I mostly agree with your post, but part of me feels we are making too much of Paton's age. He'll only be 25 this year.

To put it in perspective, if Paton found a club this year and played his way onto the national team, he would be the same age as Laryea when he first came into the national team. In other words, he's technically not too old. Look how much Laryea has grown as a player in these 3 years? There's plenty of runway left for a 25-year-old like Paton to grow his game. 

I'll be honest - I don't rate Zouhir. I am not saying he won't get better or make the national team, because I think both of these are possibilities, but I just look at his attributes as a player and I don't see much to be excited about, mostly because we already have similar players in the pipeline. Like I said before, he looks very competent, but so do Priso and Loturi. And take this with a grain of salt, because I haven't watched any of these guys much recently, but from what I recall all of these guys are basically the same player. I can acknowledge they are very young and may evolve and differ with time, but for now I don't see that happening - unlike with Nelson who I can now see as a very good central player, which I didn't expect.

Paton on the other hand seems to be a different player than Priso/Loturi/Zouhir, at least in my eyes (and @jordan mentioned the same thing earlier). From what I recall, he can be more of a deep-lying playmaker than destroyer, but really, he's more of a silky 8 (yet not quite a 10).  He can operate further up the field and is good in tight pockets. Personally, I am more excited about Paton than Zouhir based on what I think his attributes are, and this is despite the age difference. Our national team needs more technicians in midfield. 

Mind you, this is my memory of watching his highlights and the odd match over the years. The biggest question is can he shake off this recent debacle and make up for lost time. Fortunately, it's only been 8 months and the bulk of his career is in front of him. Canada fans should wish for his success. The more midfield depth we have, the better.   

Edited January 25, 2023 by Obinna