General Discussion on Canadian Youth Teams

[VinceA]

 

12 hours ago, Kent said:

Let me make sure I have this straight. Mitrovic's and Flores' fathers interfere too much by influencing the choice their kids make, but Jay Herdman's father isn't interfering enough. Both are despicable, immoral acts.

Why are people living and dying over Jay Herdman lmao

[Kadenge]

In today's USA U20WC 4-0 win over NZ, 9 American starters had significant/some pro experience:

Cowell 95 MLS games/Luna 20MLS&42USL/Wolf 37MLS/Gomez 43 LaLiga 2& 39USL/McGlynn 57MLS/Edelman 24MLS&39USL/Wiley 38MLS/Craig 15MLS&2 Bundesliga/Slonina 43MLS

I posted a while ago that what hinders our U20 performances vs U17 is that USA//Mexico and some of the CA teams have players with significant pro experience vs our squads...btw Jay Herdman was the highest rated player for NZ based on one site.

 

[Soccerpro2]

15 hours ago, Kadenge said:

In today's USA U20WC 4-0 win over NZ, 9 American starters had significant/some pro experience:

Cowell 95 MLS games/Luna 20MLS&42USL/Wolf 37MLS/Gomez 43 LaLiga 2& 39USL/McGlynn 57MLS/Edelman 24MLS&39USL/Wiley 38MLS/Craig 15MLS&2 Bundesliga/Slonina 43MLS

I posted a while ago that what hinders our U20 performances vs U17 is that USA//Mexico and some of the CA teams have players with significant pro experience vs our squads...btw Jay Herdman was the highest rated player for NZ based on one site.

 

The U.S had a significant amount of players that weren't released by their clubs for this tournament. The pro minutes total would have been way higher. 

People on this board keep saying that CPL/USL was going to make our u20 program competitive.

MLS youth academies have helped our 17 program, but our u20 program is still a disaster. A 1/2 season of CPL play for a handful of players at the u20 qualifying tournament isn't enough to move the needle.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Soccerpro2

[InglewoodJack]

When’s the earliest we might see our U20s in action again?

[VinceA]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

When’s the earliest we might see our U20s in action again?

2024 for qualification. 

[Jack1997]

Watching the US have so much success at the u20 World Cup hurts and shows with proper funding and actual camps we could do well in that tournament a 11 of:

Anchor

Ferdinand Campagana Smith Franklin

kosi Zouhir Saliba

JMR Mbougnue Habibullah

It’s hard to think that without some proper teamwork that group of players could at least get out of the group in a tourney like that.

[VinceA]

I think the one question I just want an answer to is why are we the only country that seems to be broke? Like are our finances THAT mismanaged?

Other countries with similar economies have no issue doing camps here and there and we are bleeding money apparently.

[Soccerpro2]

On 6/1/2023 at 9:56 AM, Jack1997 said:

Watching the US have so much success at the u20 World Cup hurts and shows with proper funding and actual camps we could do well in that tournament a 11 of:

Anchor

Ferdinand Campagana Smith Franklin

kosi Zouhir Saliba

JMR Mbougnue Habibullah

It’s hard to think that without some proper teamwork that group of players could at least get out of the group in a tourney like that.

That team would not come remotely close to winning a game.

Did you see how bad we were in qualifying? You're also assuming all of these players would be released by their club teams (they wouldnt)

Our tendency to overrate our young players in mind boggling.

[CanadaFan123]

10 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

That team would not come remotely close to winning a game.

Did you see how bad we were in qualifying? You're also assuming all of these players would be released by their club teams (they wouldnt)

Our tendency to overrate our young players in mind boggling.

So our team, which drew the USA in qualifying wouldn’t come close? Makes no sense. Especially as we would have more talent available. 

[Dominic94]

7 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

So our team, which drew the USA in qualifying wouldn’t come close? Makes no sense. Especially as we would have more talent available. 

Coaching would weigh us down but that team would win.

[Soccerpro2]

3 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

So our team, which drew the USA in qualifying wouldn’t come close? Makes no sense. Especially as we would have more talent available. 

We got outshot and outplayed by a wide margin and got incredibly lucky the U.S missed a ton of good chances. It happens.

Why are you leaving out that we lost to Cuba and then lost to Guatemala on penalties?

Do you know how many goals Guatemala scored at the u20 world cup? 0

Do you know how many points Guatemala earned at the u20 world cup? 0

Guatemala knocked out Mexico of the u20 Concacaf championship. Did that make them good? No, it means they had 1 lucky game.

The Dominican Republic came 2nd at the Concacaf qualifying tournament. Do you know how many points they got at the world cup?  0. They scored 1 goal and had a -10 goal differential.

Honduras had the best performance of a Concacaf team other than the U.S. The finished last in their group but managed to get 1 draw and 2 losses.

CANADA WAS DOGSHIT IN A DOGSHIT REGION THAT GOT STOMPED AT THE WORLD CUP. To say otherwise is the biggest homer take in the history of this board, which is impressive.

The players you listed are not good. Maybe a few of them will be someday. Right now, they aren't. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Soccerpro2

[VinceA]

Yeah 

6 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

We got outshot and outplayed by a wide margin and got incredibly lucky the U.S missed a ton of good chances. It happens.

Why are you leaving out that we lost to Cuba and then lost to Guatemala on penalties?

Do you know how many goals Guatemala scored at the u20 world cup? 0

Do you know how many points Guatemala earned at the u20 world cup? 0

Guatemala knocked out Mexico of the u20 Concacaf championship. Did that make them good? No, it means they had 1 lucky game.

The Dominican Republic came 2nd at the Concacaf qualifying tournament. Do you know how many points they got at the world cup?  0. They scored 1 goal and had a -10 goal differential.

Honduras had the best performance of a Concacaf team other than the U.S. The finished last in their group but managed to get 1 draw and 2 losses.

CANADA WAS DOGSHIT IN A DOGSHIT REGION THAT GOT STOMPED AT THE WORLD CUP. To say otherwise is the biggest homer take in the history of this board, which is impressive.

The players you listed are not good. Maybe a few of them will be someday. Right now, they aren't. 

yeah even if we have more pros at the U20 level than ever, as a team we just aren't that good at putting it all together.

[Soccerpro2]

6 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Yeah 

yeah even if we have more pros at the U20 level than ever, as a team we just aren't that good at putting it all together.

A 1/2 season of CPL play for a couple of players does not make them world-beaters, despite what some of our biggest boosters believe.

[CanadaFan123]

25 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

We got outshot and outplayed by a wide margin and got incredibly lucky the U.S missed a ton of good chances. It happens.

Why are you leaving out that we lost to Cuba and then lost to Guatemala on penalties?

Do you know how many goals Guatemala scored at the u20 world cup? 0

Do you know how many points Guatemala earned at the u20 world cup? 0

Guatemala knocked out Mexico of the u20 Concacaf championship. Did that make them good? No, it means they had 1 lucky game.

The Dominican Republic came 2nd at the Concacaf qualifying tournament. Do you know how many points they got at the world cup?  0. They scored 1 goal and had a -10 goal differential.

Honduras had the best performance of a Concacaf team other than the U.S. The finished last in their group but managed to get 1 draw and 2 losses.

CANADA WAS DOGSHIT IN A DOGSHIT REGION THAT GOT STOMPED AT THE WORLD CUP. To say otherwise is the biggest homer take in the history of this board, which is impressive.

The players you listed are not good. Maybe a few of them will be someday. Right now, they aren't. 

So Guatemala was lucky against Mexico but not us? We weren’t great but I’m pointing out the stupidity of your initial comment. 

We were dogshit because of poor coaching, lack of prep and players missing. 

To think we’re far behind Uzbekistan and New Zealand talent wise is a fools take. We would have done better than either team with proper prep. Jay Herdman couldn’t even make our B team. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by CanadaFan123

[Soccerpro2]

7 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

So Guatemala was lucky against Mexico but not us? We weren’t great but I’m pointing out the stupidity of your initial comment. 

We were dogshit because of poor coaching, lack of prep and players missing. 

To think we’re far behind Uzbekistan and New Zealand talent wise is a fools take. We would have done better than either team with proper prep. Jay Herdman couldn’t even make our B team. 

Guatemala was lucky against Mexico. We were lucky against the U.S.

Keep sticking your head in the sand, there's a reason no one is repping your post. It's outrageous.

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, Soccerpro2 said:

Guatemala was lucky against Mexico. We were lucky against the U.S.

Keep sticking your head in the sand, there's a reason no one is repping your post. It's outrageous.

So what was Guatemala against us? No sticking my head in the sand, we were terrible and can be better. You’re just unhinged and speaking hyperbole in saying we wouldn’t come close to winning a game. 

[Floortom]

6 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

So our team, which drew the USA in qualifying wouldn’t come close? Makes no sense. Especially as we would have more talent available. 

I mean it was great that the boys grinded out a draw but we were thouroughly outclassed. I posted it in the match thread at the time but we didn’t look like we even belonged on the same pitch.  There was a massive skill and physical disparity. I certainly wouldn’t extrapolate positive results based on that one performance 

[CanadaFan123]

8 minutes ago, Floortom said:

I mean it was great that the boys grinded out a draw but we were thouroughly outclassed. I posted it in the match thread at the time but we didn’t look like we even belonged on the same pitch.  There was a massive skill and physical disparity. I certainly wouldn’t extrapolate positive results based on that one performance 

Certainly not but that’s not the point is it? We wouldn’t come close with a complete roster and more prep? Seems improbable. 

[Soccerpro2]

3 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

So Guatemala was lucky against Mexico but not us? We weren’t great but I’m pointing out the stupidity of your initial comment. 

We were dogshit because of poor coaching, lack of prep and players missing. 

To think we’re far behind Uzbekistan and New Zealand talent wise is a fools take. We would have done better than either team with proper prep. Jay Herdman couldn’t even make our B team. 

 

1 hour ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Certainly not but that’s not the point is it? We wouldn’t come close with a complete roster and more prep? Seems improbable. 

Earlier you accuse me of saying Guatemala was lucky against Mexico (which was true) but not lucky against us (they were not, we were just as bad as they were, we also lost to Cuba, which was reflective of how bad our team was). Why is that stupid? You seemed to be trying to say earlier that our draw against the U.S somehow supported your premise we were a talented team (we were not, we got lucky after being played off the park, which another poster has confirmed, which you now finally admit in your post above)

Now you're saying it's all down to poor coaching, lack of prep and players missing. Let's look into that in detail.

Do you know which countries have players missing in these tournaments? Pretty much all of them. France had more than 50 players who weren't released for the u20 World Cup. The U.S had a bunch too. So are we using the hypothetical that only we get access to every single player and they cant be injured or withheld by their club teams? Or does that apply to all the other teams to? Do you know how many players were withheld by their clubs on the Canadian team for the u20 Concacaf tournament? Go ahead and guess.

Do you know what the prep level was of other countries, especially those Concacaf countries like Guatemala and the Dominic Republic? Were they holding lots of camps, playing in great facilities and having friendlies over the entire cycle?  So does the lack of prep excuse only apply to us? Do you know what prep Uzbekistan had? They've made the quarter finals of the u20 world cup a few times and are also the current champions of Asia u20. Why do you think our talent pool is better than theirs? I look forward to your response. My guess is that its' because you're ignorant. More Asian teams advanced out of their groups at the u20 World Cup than Concacaf teams did. Their federation performed better than CONCACAF has at the tournament. Concacaf has been the worst by far. So why are we more talented than them, or any Asian team?

On 6/1/2023 at 9:56 AM, Jack1997 said:

Anchor

Ferdinand Campagana Smith Franklin

kosi Zouhir Saliba

JMR Mbougnue Habibullah

Now let's go to your ideal team for the u20 World Cup, ignoring the rest of the absolute nonsense you've posted.

Do you think these players are good? If so, why? Why would they be better than Uzbekistan?

In our loss to Guatemala Ferdinand, Campagna, Zouhir, Franklin and Smith all started. That 5/11 from your list. Habbibulah and Mbounge subbed on. That's 7/11 from your list.

JMR was injured, Saliba was not named to the final roster. He was playing for Montreal in the PLSQ semi pro league at the time. I have no idea why you included Max Anchor. This is the hardest of your inclusions to understand. He was a Whitecaps academy player when the tournament started. Ben Alexander didn't cost us the game. Would Anchor have scored goals for us too? What's so good about him? That leaves Kosi Thompson. He was playing regular minutes for TFC, but not exactly lighting up the league or drawing interest from other leagues with his performances.

Ferdinand is playing USL, Campagna is playing CPL, Smith is glued to the bench in the lower leagues in France, Franklin and Kosi both get game time for a bad TFC team. Zouhir is in the USL, Saliba hasn't done much with his MLS minutes this year, JMR is up and down this year, Mboungnue has contributed nothing in his few MLS minutes this year and has mostly played on the USL team and Habibullah (who is actually from Uzbekistan!) is playing USL with the whitecaps 2 team after having a lackluster year in the CPL last season with Pacific.

You're telling me that these guys would have gotten points at the World Cup?

If you can't see how dogshit this roster is, then you win the internet.

Congratulations.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Soccerpro2

[Stoppage Time]

23 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

Now let's go to your ideal team for the u20 World Cup, ignoring the rest of the absolute nonsense you've posted.

Do you think these players are good? If so, why? Why would they be better than Uzbekistan?

In our loss to Guatemala Ferdinand, Campagna, Zouhir, Franklin and Smith all started. That 5/11 from your list. Habbibulah and Mbounge subbed on. That's 7/11 from your list.

JMR was injured, Saliba was not named to the final roster. He was playing for Montreal in the PLSQ semi pro league at the time. I have no idea why you included Max Anchor. This is the hardest of your inclusions to understand. He was a Whitecaps academy player when the tournament started. Ben Alexander didn't cost us the game. Would Anchor have scored goals for us too? What's so good about him? That leaves Kosi Thompson. He was playing regular minutes for TFC, but not exactly lighting up the league or drawing interest from other leagues with his performances.

Ferdinand is playing USL, Campagna is playing CPL, Smith is glued to the bench in the lower leagues in France, Franklin and Kosi both get game time for a bad TFC team. Zouhir is in the USL, Saliba has seen his MLS playing time dry up, JMR is up and down this year, Mboungnue has contributed nothing in his few MLS minutes this year and Habibullah (who is actually from Uzbekistan!) is playing USL with the whitecaps 2 team.

You're telling me that these guys would have gotten points at the World Cup?

If you can't see how dogshit this roster is, then you win the internet.

Congratulations.

 

 

The team was weak, that is so.

Obviously, we need to create a better way to develop and showcase out youngsters to clubs. International U-level tournaments are one way, and getting useful club minutes is another.

Do you have any ideas that you think might help to improve the situation?

I wonder about  the coaching talent that the CSA uses. Good enough? Better to have better but intermittent "guest coaches for a cycle? Better staff coaches? Overlap of positions so Herdman and Biello and ??? share the load between them?

Is there a real and practical way to improve scouting? Hire local contracted consultants? Hire a couple of small staffs who go about and scout and video and interview a week or two here, a month there?

Is there a fair way for clubs in, for example, in L1 or the CPL or in youth organizations to be fairly compensated when they help to develop a gem or two?

Lots to consider. I wonder you and others think.

Cheers!

[CanadaFan123]

@Soccerpro2man you’re so lost you don’t even realize you’re replying to multiple people. We weren’t good - yes. We also don’t need to be unhinged and think that we’re somehow behind teams like Uzbekistan and New Zealand based off an underprepped cycle. 

[phresh]

24 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

 

Earlier you accuse me of saying Guatemala was lucky against Mexico (which was true) but not lucky against us (they were not, we were just as bad as they were, we also lost to Cuba, which was reflective of how bad our team was). Why is that stupid? You seemed to be trying to say earlier that our draw against the U.S somehow supported your premise we were a talented team (we were not, we got lucky after being played off the park, which another poster has confirmed, which you now finally admit in your post above)

Now you're saying it's all down to poor coaching, lack of prep and players missing. Let's look into that in detail.

Do you know which countries have players missing in these tournaments? Pretty much all of them. France had more than 50 players who weren't released for the u20 World Cup. The U.S had a bunch too. So are we using the hypothetical that only we get access to every single player and they cant be injured or withheld by their club teams? Or does that apply to all the other teams to? Do you know how many players were withheld by their clubs on the Canadian team for the u20 Concacaf tournament? Go ahead and guess.

Do you know what the prep level was of other countries, especially those Concacaf countries like Guatemala and the Dominic Republic? Were they holding lots of camps, playing in great facilities and having friendlies over the entire cycle?  So does the lack of prep excuse only apply to us? Do you know what prep Uzbekistan had? They've made the quarter finals of the u20 world cup a few times and are also the current champions of Asia u20. Why do you think our talent pool is better than theirs? I look forward to your response. My guess is that its' because you're ignorant. More Asian teams advanced out of their groups at the u20 World Cup than Concacaf teams did. Their federation performed better than CONCACAF has at the tournament. Concacaf has been the worst by far. So why are we more talented than them, or any Asian team?

Now let's go to your ideal team for the u20 World Cup, ignoring the rest of the absolute nonsense you've posted.

Do you think these players are good? If so, why? Why would they be better than Uzbekistan?

In our loss to Guatemala Ferdinand, Campagna, Zouhir, Franklin and Smith all started. That 5/11 from your list. Habbibulah and Mbounge subbed on. That's 7/11 from your list.

JMR was injured, Saliba was not named to the final roster. He was playing for Montreal in the PLSQ semi pro league at the time. I have no idea why you included Max Anchor. This is the hardest of your inclusions to understand. He was a Whitecaps academy player when the tournament started. Ben Alexander didn't cost us the game. Would Anchor have scored goals for us too? What's so good about him? That leaves Kosi Thompson. He was playing regular minutes for TFC, but not exactly lighting up the league or drawing interest from other leagues with his performances.

Ferdinand is playing USL, Campagna is playing CPL, Smith is glued to the bench in the lower leagues in France, Franklin and Kosi both get game time for a bad TFC team. Zouhir is in the USL, Saliba hasn't done much with his MLS minutes this year, JMR is up and down this year, Mboungnue has contributed nothing in his few MLS minutes this year and has mostly played on the USL team and Habibullah (who is actually from Uzbekistan!) is playing USL with the whitecaps 2 team after having a lackluster year in the CPL last season with Pacific.

You're telling me that these guys would have gotten points at the World Cup?

If you can't see how dogshit this roster is, then you win the internet.

Congratulations.

 

 

You seem to have misdirected your anger at our lack of youth infrastructure towards @CanadaFan123. If there's anyone to be mad at, it's the higher ups at Canada Soccer. Now, from a general sense, I agree with the opinion that we wouldn't be able to compete with decent teams at the World Cup. That being said, there are a couple of inaccuracies in your response. First, MLS reserve teams don't play in the USL. Second, it isn't that hard to understand why Anchor would take a spot over Alexander, given that he left Whitecaps 2 to play in the NCAA. Also not sure what you mean with the Smith comment. Over the last two seasons, he's mostly played and started at the same level (French 5th tier), which isn't encouraging, but it didn't hamper him during the tournament. Saying none of our players would get "points" at the tournament sounds a bit hyperbolic. Jay Herdman currently plays for WFC 2 and was New Zealand's focal point on the attack. Btw he actually managed to grab a "point". Dunno if he would've made the Canada team. As to whether our current U20's are better than Uzbekistan's, I don't know. But given the investment poured into the training and development of MLS academy players, I don't see why our players shouldn't be more individually talented than them.

[Soccerpro2]

8 minutes ago, phresh said:

You seem to have misdirected your anger at our lack of youth infrastructure towards @CanadaFan123. If there's anyone to be mad at, it's the higher ups at Canada Soccer. Now, from a general sense, I agree with the opinion that we wouldn't be able to compete with decent teams at the World Cup. That being said, there are a couple of inaccuracies in your response. First, MLS reserve teams don't play in the USL. Second, it isn't that hard to understand why Anchor would take a spot over Alexander, given that he left Whitecaps 2 to play in the NCAA. Also not sure what you mean with the Smith comment. Over the last two seasons, he's mostly played and started at the same level (French 5th tier), which isn't encouraging, but it didn't hamper him during the tournament. Saying none of our players would get "points" at the tournament sounds a bit hyperbolic. Jay Herdman currently plays for WFC 2 and was New Zealand's focal point on the attack. Btw he actually managed to grab a "point". Dunno if he would've made the Canada team. As to whether our current U20's are better than Uzbekistan's, I don't know. But given the investment poured into the training and development of MLS academy players, I don't see why our players shouldn't be more individually talented than them.

Your right, MLS teams play in MLSNEXTPRO, a level lower than USL, my mistake. Would Anchor have made a difference over Alexander? Was goalkeeping our problem? NZ on paper are pretty bad, but so was Cuba and Guatemala and what did we do against them? As for picking Uzbekistan as a team we "we should be better than" given their success at the u20 level including winning the Asian championship, that's hard a one to understand.

 

[Soccerpro2]

18 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

@Soccerpro2man you’re so lost you don’t even realize you’re replying to multiple people. We weren’t good - yes. We also don’t need to be unhinged and think that we’re somehow behind teams like Uzbekistan and New Zealand based off an underprepped cycle. 

I'll wait for you to tell me what's inaccurate in my last post. Please, I'm looking forward to discussing which of my points are wrong. Oh I get it now it's an "underprepped cycle" that makes up for anything else including the performance of players. Catch-all Gotcha. Nice catch all.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Soccerpro2

[Soccerpro2]

56 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

The team was weak, that is so.

Obviously, we need to create a better way to develop and showcase out youngsters to clubs. International U-level tournaments are one way, and getting useful club minutes is another.

Do you have any ideas that you think might help to improve the situation?

I wonder about  the coaching talent that the CSA uses. Good enough? Better to have better but intermittent "guest coaches for a cycle? Better staff coaches? Overlap of positions so Herdman and Biello and ??? share the load between them?

Is there a real and practical way to improve scouting? Hire local contracted consultants? Hire a couple of small staffs who go about and scout and video and interview a week or two here, a month there?

Is there a fair way for clubs in, for example, in L1 or the CPL or in youth organizations to be fairly compensated when they help to develop a gem or two?

Lots to consider. I wonder you and others think.

Cheers!

Rob Gale coached a cycle where he said that the reason we lost previous editions of the tournament was inexperience. So he had a million camps, including in Central America. Guess what happened in the tournament? The same ol' stupid mistakes that always happen at this level for us.

More prep surely doesnt hurt. Would world-class coaching help? Sure, but who wants to be a part-time u20 MNT coach for peanuts?

Some posters here suggested that the CPL would fix our problems at this level, I didn't think that was true then and I don't think so now. Not too many u20 players get significant, meaningful minutes in the CPL prior to the tournament, and those that do don't seem to be any better than the Central American players that get pro minutes.

For whatever reason, our players seem shell shocked every edition of the u20 qualifying tournament. MLS academies have helped at the u17 level, but certainly not the u20 and u23 levels.

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Soccerpro2