Canadian Premier League

[-Hammer-]

5 hours ago, grande said:

I'd be happy if they all changed their names, but

1. The word "Eskimo" isn't a slur like Redskin

2. The logo isn't as awful as "Chief Wahoo"

3. Their fans don't do anything like the Tomahawk Chop in Atlanta

To the first - From my understanding it is. It's not as bad as Redskin (which is literally a slur about killing natives for a bounty) or Indian (Because Indians are from India) but it still is offensive from my understanding. It is said to mean "Eater of raw meat" in other native dialects and "to net snowshoes", so it's sort of like calling someone who speaks Spanish, Spanish even though they might be Mexican, or Dominican. It is also used to imply that any native of the arctic is an "Eskimio" It's also kind of like calling some from Boston or Ohio a Yankee...which I'm sure they wouldn't take to kindly to.

To the second - This is correct, the EE logo of the Evil Empire is only lame, not offensive. Even their mascots Nanook (the bizarre mouthed polar bear) and Punter (an Anthropomorphic Football) fall into this trend.

To the third - I haven't been to a game, so I can't honestly say, but if they did, it's certainly not a high enough level of prominence to be noticed.

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, -Hammer- said:

To the first group, but they still somehow manage in a league that demands passing grades consistently throughout the semester or play and practice is immediately suspended.

As both a high school student in a WHL town and a teacher for 20 years in another WHL town, this was not my experience. It was more like if you can keep up and pass, great ... if not, here's two extra semesters to finish this credit. I just don't think the CHL/CanPL analogy holds not only in terms of level of play/expectations of players, but on many other levels.

On the CanPL travel cost discussion, let's hypothesize that there are going to be six teams at launch - Hamilton, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary. And let's say each team plays each other time twice at home and twice away. For a team like Calgary you are probably looking at two bus trips (both to Regina), two flights to Winnipeg (~$500 X 2 per person), two flights each to Hamilton, Toronto, and Ottawa. (~$700 X 6 per person). For a team like Regina you could eliminate the western flights and add one bus ride. Of course who knows what kind of prices the teams might get especially if there is an airline sponsor.

However, if the teams are Victoria, Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Montreal, and Moncton, the bus idea goes out the window and your flights get more expensive. Still, there's a decent chance you can offset some of the costs of flights with busses somewhere in the league, and here's hoping they get an airline sponsor so that costs are reduced somewhat. However, so much of the discussion on anything CanPL related will only be able to be explored when details are announced.

[to70]

If the CSA is serious in getting this league off the ground I would like to see them put some $$$$$$ to help the CPL. My thoughts would be either a travel subsidy or placing and paying for 2 young National Level players on each team as they do with the NWSL

[Pqhbv]

I think the dichotomy between Hispanic and Latino is more relevant to a discussion about Eskimo and Inuit. It is merely distinction between general and relative terms. Then again, I am not either and hold no stake in such an argument, so what do I know.

I am not advocating one side of the argument or the other, I just find it interesting how some groups react to sports team names in certain situations and others don't. The Argos & Vikings are nouns of ethnics origin viewed in light of heroism... Braves and Warriors are not... Blackhawks somewhere in between and no one care about the REDBLACKS...

Its all very interesting to say the least...

[matty]

5 hours ago, Pqhbv said:

I think the dichotomy between Hispanic and Latino is more relevant to a discussion about Eskimo and Inuit. It is merely distinction between general and relative terms. Then again, I am not either and hold no stake in such an argument, so what do I know.

I am not advocating one side of the argument or the other, I just find it interesting how some groups react to sports team names in certain situations and others don't. The Argos & Vikings are nouns of ethnics origin viewed in light of heroism... Braves and Warriors are not... Blackhawks somewhere in between and no one care about the REDBLACKS...

Its all very interesting to say the least...

I've heard Eskimo really varies depending on where you are: Canada and Greenland slur, USA, Iceland and Russia not slur. Again not 100% sure but I do think it's a slur here.

Blackhawks actually has a decent history to it but still drums up some debate. I agree they're in a grey zone

There was Redblacks controversy.

[JamboAl]

3 hours ago, to70 said:

If the CSA is serious in getting this league off the ground I would like to see them put some $$$$$$ to help the CPL. My thoughts would be either a travel subsidy or placing and paying for 2 young National Level players on each team as they do with the NWSL

With all due respect, where is this $$$$$$ that the CSA has?

[Complete Homer]

16 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

With all due respect, where is this $$$$$$ that the CSA has?

While they don't directly state most of the financials, as far as I know, you can infer a bit. 

In 2014, the annual report stated there was a 1.6 million increase in revenue, which was a 9% increase. In 2015, there was another 26% increase driven by strong ticket sales and increased sponsorships. If you work that out, it is about 22.5 million total in revenue.

Considering they said they were within 3% of the budget in 2014 and there weren't huge increases in spending in 2015 and 2016 (not sure what to go off of) there might be some money that could be tossed in the pot, but I imagine most of that 26% was temporary WWC revenue. Maybe we'll get a better picture once the 2016 annual report is released 

Personally, I think it would look good if the CSA threw 500k in the central pot for salaries (assuming salaries are paid centrally) for the first couple years, but I suspect it wouldn't be sustainable. Who knows though. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

5 hours ago, matty said:

I've heard Eskimo really varies depending on where you are: Canada and Greenland slur, USA, Iceland and Russia not slur. Again not 100% sure but I don think it's a slur here.

I feel like this is probably because we are the only countries that have people who could be mistakenly referred to as eskimo, but correct me if I'm wrong.  Like as far as I'm aware there aren't inuit in Iceland and Russia, although I think there are probably some in alaska.  But there definitely are a non-trivial number of inuits in Yukon, NWT, Nunavut and Greenland(pretty sure about greenland anyways).

So it's like the whole if there a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it fall, does it even make a sound.  It's probably not considered offensive in a country where there is no one around to really be offended by it.

[matty]

20 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I feel like this is probably because we are the only countries that have people who could be mistakenly referred to as eskimo, but correct me if I'm wrong.  Like as far as I'm aware there aren't inuit in Iceland and Russia, although I think there are probably some in alaska.  But there definitely are a non-trivial number of inuits in Yukon, NWT, Nunavut and Greenland(pretty sure about greenland anyways).

So it's like the whole if there a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it fall, does it even make a sound.  It's probably not considered offensive in a country where there is no one around to really be offended by it.

I just check and there are "Eskimos" is Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Yupik_people, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naukan_people) but was wrong about Iceland. 

Found this answer about whether it is offensive 

"There are at least two different types of Eskimo: Inuit and Yupik. In Canada and Greenland, the only type of Eskimo is the Inuit. However in the United States, both types are present and in Russia, only the Yupik are present. So, Eskimo couldn't really mean anything other than Inuit in Canada whereas in Alaska it could very well be referring to either. In Russia, it could only mean the Yupik.

The point is that Eskimo is a more general word than Inuit. All Inuit are Eskimos but not all Eskimos are Inuit. The two words aren't synonyms."

 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Interesting.

 

Anyways.  Just read a little article about a poll that found that 9/10 first nations aren't offended by the redskins name.  And maybe it's the same with eskimo so I guess who cares.

still, it would be nice to not offend anyone.

[Gopherbashi]

9 hours ago, matty said:

I just check and there are "Eskimos" is Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Yupik_people, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naukan_people) but was wrong about Iceland. 

Found this answer about whether it is offensive 

"There are at least two different types of Eskimo: Inuit and Yupik. In Canada and Greenland, the only type of Eskimo is the Inuit. However in the United States, both types are present and in Russia, only the Yupik are present. So, Eskimo couldn't really mean anything other than Inuit in Canada whereas in Alaska it could very well be referring to either. In Russia, it could only mean the Yupik.

The point is that Eskimo is a more general word than Inuit. All Inuit are Eskimos but not all Eskimos are Inuit. The two words aren't synonyms."

 

You missed the last sentence, where it explicitly says that the term is offensive in Canada.

According to Wikipedia, the term is offensive in Canada and Greenland and not elsewhere.

[mpg_29]

Top teams from Belgium, Holland, Scotland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden negotiating about a North European league:

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/579075/top_teams_from_belgium_holland_scotland_denmark/

[Complete Homer]

23 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

Top teams from Belgium, Holland, Scotland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden negotiating about a North European league:

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/579075/top_teams_from_belgium_holland_scotland_denmark/

 I wonder if things are shifting a bit and watching a couple teams dominate for decades at a time in each respective league is getting old.

Would be interesting to see how the national leagues fair without their biggest teams. Would be a somewhat valid comparison for a CPL without TFC/VWC/IMFC

[matty]

50 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

Top teams from Belgium, Holland, Scotland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden negotiating about a North European league:

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/579075/top_teams_from_belgium_holland_scotland_denmark/

crazy

here's the story in english http://www.espnfc.com/fc-copenhagen/story/2971516/fc-copenhagen-ceo-confirms-atlantic-league-talks

[Ansem]

20 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

 I wonder if things are shifting a bit and watching a couple teams dominate for decades at a time in each respective league is getting old.

I would expect them to consolidate the lower Tier as well for Pro/Rel

[Complete Homer]

26 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I would expect them to consolidate the lower Tier as well for Pro/Rel

AThat would be interesting to see. I know several of those leagues have a mix of semi-pro and pro in their current D2, maybe they see it as good for development to allow the superclubs to play at a higher level while consolidating the fully professional D2 teams into a wider professional league. Still, it's one thing to take the top 3 teams from each of those nations into one superleague, it is another to combine the next 10-15 teams that are roughly equal to each other within their national leagues and consolidate them into an international D2. 

I could see them doing Superleague -> National "D1" leagues -> National "D2" leagues as their new paradigm

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

AThat would be interesting to see. I know several of those leagues have a mix of semi-pro and pro in their current D2, maybe they see it as good for development to allow the superclubs to play at a higher level while consolidating the fully professional D2 teams into a wider professional league. Still, it's one thing to take the top 3 teams from each of those nations into one superleague, it is another to combine the next 10-15 teams that are roughly equal to each other within their national leagues and consolidate them into an international D2. 

I could see them doing Superleague -> National "D1" leagues -> National "D2" leagues as their new paradigm

Might as well make a D2 Superleague if the intent is to make everyone more competitive.

[Complete Homer]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Might as well make a D2 Superleague if the intent is to make everyone more competitive.

My point was that while most of those leagues have 2-4 teams that are clearly above the rest (and could make up the superleague), the next ten or so teams in those leagues are often quite close in terms of quality. It might not make sense to force those teams to split into tiers and potentially really hurt a large number of teams by placing them in a 3rd tier when their fanbases are used to being a first tier team. Can't see the individual FAs being on board with that, assuming they are on board with the idea to begin with

[Complete Homer]

Back on topic, there is a brief discussion of CPL in Dino Rossi (L1O President) interview (at about 20 minutes). Rossi says he isn't sure that all CPL clubs will have academies at launch, stresses he thinks partnerships with L1O can help bridge the gap for teams in the intervening years. Long term he hopes that a distinct path of OPDL -> L1O -> CPL will be in place, with L1O having a good chunk of the best 17-23 year olds. The idea of copying major junior hockey is key in his mind.

Also funny that they talked about how the rumours of L1O floated around for a number of years, that they repeatedly delayed the launch for years, and most people laughed at the idea and said that there would have had an official announcement if the league was going to happen. Turns out they were waiting until they could announce from a position of strength, and a few years down the road they are now in a position where the league has expanded rapidly and they are consciously slowing down expansion to ensure they are picking the best of the best applicants.

Food for thought.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The main thing that delayed L1O is that Rossi and co initially tried joining the existing CSL instead of launching a rival league, but the owners (such as the Gauss family in London and Bruno Ierullo in North York) that held ownership shares in the league ousted them when Rossi and co tried to move the league in a direction that they were not comfortable with, such as an attempt to launch a new division in BC. Are there any semi-pro players in L1O yet? The rhetoric was all about a semi-pro league before it was launched, but instead what materialized was basically another elite amateur league. If CPL follows a similar trajectory it will wind up being a lot closer to a Canadian version of PDL rather than the NASL, which is probably how it could actually realistically happen with something similar to the New Zealand Football Championship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Football_Championship

[ironcub14]

41 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Back on topic, there is a brief discussion of CPL in Dino Rossi (L1O President) interview (at about 20 minutes). Rossi says he isn't sure that all CPL clubs will have academies at launch, stresses he thinks partnerships with L1O can help bridge the gap for teams in the intervening years. Long term he hopes that a distinct path of OPDL -> L1O -> CPL will be in place, with L1O having a good chunk of the best 17-23 year olds. The idea of copying major junior hockey is key in his mind.

Also funny that they talked about how the rumours of L1O floated around for a number of years, that they repeatedly delayed the launch for years, and most people laughed at the idea and said that there would have had an official announcement if the league was going to happen. Turns out they were waiting until they could announce from a position of strength, and a few years down the road they are now in a position where the league has expanded rapidly and they are consciously slowing down expansion to ensure they are picking the best of the best applicants.

Food for thought.

That's an interesting discussion for sure. Just a quick off-the-top-of-my-head reply on that, I am for the growth of L1O and providing that major junior hockey-like structure for some of the best 17-23 yos in Ontario, and the continued growth of these leagues in other provinces, as I think we all are.

I'd say though that it's just as important that all CPL clubs do launch their academies as they launch their senior sides, or soon after, and that these CPL academies take on an active role in the D3 provincial leagues. And I do understand that this dual structure is already taking place with TFC, and that they may even be taking on too active of a role suddenly in L1O.

For better or worse, the MLS/NASL/CPL youth academies will have to take leadership on youth development over the future, and L1O/PLSQ/D3/provincial leagues will provide a strong supporting role. I'm saying all this with the idea that I do want the Ontarian MLS/NASL/CPL sides to have first rights of refusal on the best Ontarian players, rather than having the best L1O/PLSQ players be subject to some annual CPL draft or something.

 

[Complete Homer]

17 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The main thing that delayed L1O is that Rossi and co initially tried joining the existing CSL instead of launching a rival league, but the owners (such as the Gauss family in London and Bruno Ierullo in North York) that held ownership shares in the league ousted them when Rossi and co tried to move the league in a direction that they were not comfortable with, such as an attempt to launch a new division in BC. Are there any semi-pro players in L1O yet? The rhetoric was all about a semi-pro league before it was launched, but instead what materialized was basically another elite amateur league. If CPL follows a similar trajectory it will wind up being a lot closer to a Canadian version of PDL rather than the NASL, which is probably how it could actually realistically happen with something similar to the New Zealand Football Championship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Football_Championship

Are they not phasing in semi-pro contracts next season? If you're calling gradual phasing in of some semi-pro contracts, doubling the number of teams in three seasons, and decent increases in quality a poor trajectory than I'm not sure what you expect. L1O has already bore fruit in 3 seasons, that's pretty damn good and is a great exemplar of why we need a solid defined route to being a pro player in Canada.

I'm really not interested in another extended debate with you, but you seem to have a mental block about the possibility that a similar, legitimate reason for a delay occurred with CPL. I've been told privately about one big delay that happened that was actually good news for the league, but it meant certain negotiations had backed up because the league was now in a stronger position.

Even calling it a delay is a stretch, the original leak mentioned 2017 or 2018. The "leak" in February said 2018 or 2019, and as far as I've been told, 2018 is very much the expectation. As far as delays go, that is a pretty small thing to be whining about. 

[Oranje]

13 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Interesting.

 

Anyways.  Just read a little article about a poll that found that 9/10 first nations aren't offended by the redskins name.  And maybe it's the same with eskimo so I guess who cares.

still, it would be nice to not offend anyone.

FWIW, I was talking to volunteers at Indian Village at the Stampede and they said they preferred the term Indian  

[Complete Homer]

5 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

That's an interesting discussion for sure. Just a quick off-the-top-of-my-head reply on that, I am for the growth of L1O and providing that major junior hockey-like structure for some of the best 17-23 yos in Ontario, and the continued growth of these leagues in other provinces, as I think we all are.

I'd say though that it's just as important that all CPL clubs do launch their academies as they launch their senior sides, or soon after, and that these CPL academies take on an active role in the D3 provincial leagues. And I do understand that this dual structure is already taking place with TFC, and that they may even be taking on too active of a role suddenly in L1O.

For better or worse, the MLS/NASL/CPL youth academies will have to take leadership on youth development over the future, and L1O/PLSQ/D3/provincial leagues will provide a strong supporting role. I'm saying all this with the idea that I do want the Ontarian MLS/NASL/CPL sides to have first rights of refusal on the best Ontarian players, rather than having the best L1O/PLSQ players be subject to some annual CPL draft or something.

 

I agree that CPL clubs need their own academies, and there should be a mandated timeline of sorts for teams to get their academies going. That said, if it takes a few years to get off the ground properly, that's fine with me. Apparently the Fury were very unhappy with the way their academy was running and decided tearing it down for a future rebuild was a good idea, would hate to see a rush job on CPL academies have the same issue. Even TFC didn't have an academy in year one.

The whole concept of a draft is a complete unknown to me, no one in-the-know I've chatted with has had an answer for me. Hopefully there isn't one, but I wonder if there will be some sort of shenanigans required by the Competition Act due to single entity. I am not a lawyer, and I'm aware the Competition Act is pretty different from the American antitrust legislation, but I suspect CPL will be forced into some MLSesque rules from a legal standpoint. Not sure if a draft or some sort of "discovery" list would be required to prove the teams weren't competing for signings.

[matty]

18 minutes ago, Oranje said:

FWIW, I was talking to volunteers at Indian Village at the Stampede and they said they preferred the term Indian  

yeah it seems there is a good number that prefer it or "American/Canadian Indian"