Canadian Premier League

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This CBC Hamilton story from February is worth a look as it spins things a bit differently from the Hamilton Spectator story:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/hamilton-will-get-a-pro-soccer-team-by-2018-insider-says-1.3431962

...McGrane said there will be an announcement in "three to four months" from the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, which holds the exclusive rights to professional soccer at the new stadium.

The new league is not a done deal, said McGrane, who wants to build the soccer dome with Ticats owner Bob Young.

But the Hamilton team would be playing out of the stadium by 2018, the deadline by which the Tiger-Cats have to field a professional soccer team.

Under the stadium lease agreement with the city, the Ticats have until the end of March to use their exclusive rights to soccer at the stadium, said Gerry Davis, general manager of public works. 

Davis said there have been false starts with professional soccer in Hamilton in the past. "We'll wait until it's signed," he said...

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Following up on that, I suspect that the fan survey that was circulated was the announcement from the Ticats in "three to four months" and it was never intended to be about the CPL as the Hamilton Spectator article appeared to imply. Also looks like CPL is the ideal plan A scenario for the Ticats/Steelers and the CSA, but no matter what happens on that there will be a Hamilton pro team of some description up and running by the 2018 season as the plan B in line with commitments made in the run up to the PanAm games about a pro soccer legacy.

My guess would be that the CPL business plan will be revealed towards the end of the year and there will be a call for investors to buy franchises in other cities and the response on that will determine whether the league flies or not. I suspect it will quickly go the way of the CUSL, barring unlikely scenarios such as a billionaire deciding to make a Canadian pro soccer league his legacy in a philanthropic sort of way, but time will tell. I don't think they can downscale their ambitions too far in terms of budgets from NASL levels, unfortunately, if a team playing at Tim Horton Field rather than the latter day version of Brian Timmins stadium is meant to be at the centre of it all.

Following on from that, if I were a CPL enthusiast (I do understand the mindset as it was how I initially viewed the original CSL in the late 1980s when I was in my twenties), I would be disappointed that it's the Ticats that have registered CPL as a trademark, because it suggests it's a one man band setup at the moment driven by their reluctance to have a team in what is clearly a minor league second tier relative to Toronto FC given they are used to having Toronto vs Hamilton as the main regular season rivalry.

[An Observer]

I really hope that this league gets up and running if for the only reason that BBTB has to eat humble pie. I am sceptical myself of its viability but man, it's friggin depressing to read over the last couple of years the constant chirping from this individual to attempt to discredit the possibility of this league.  Geez. Get a life, dude!

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, An Observer said:

I really hope that this league gets up and running if for the only reason that BBTB has to eat humble pie. I am sceptical myself of its viability but man, it's friggin depressing to read over the last couple of years the constant chirping from this individual to attempt to discredit the possibility of this league.  Geez. Get a life, dude!

I don't think that will happen; rather the argument will morph into "this league isn't worth it, won't survive, isn't up to a good standard", etc.

[MtlMario]

1 hour ago, An Observer said:

I really hope that this league gets up and running if for the only reason that BBTB has to eat humble pie. I am sceptical myself of its viability but man, it's friggin depressing to read over the last couple of years the constant chirping from this individual to attempt to discredit the possibility of this league.  Geez. Get a life, dude!

I keep telling these guys to open a Pessimist Club but they keep telling me that it will never succeed!!!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Lots of going for the man rather than the ball going on, which suggests that nobody sees an obvious flaw in the arguments in that last post. I'm actually very optimistic about the future of pro soccer in Canada. Fifteen years ago anybody suggesting there would be a Toronto pro soccer franchise averaging about 25,000 paying spectators that would be able to attract an Italian national team player from Juventus at the prime of his career might have been held for psychiatric assessment. I'm confident MLS (and by extension USL) will be the vehicle that transforms things in a similar way in the next fifteen years to a point that will start to approach Joe MacCarthy's worst nightmares where the status of the CFL is concerned.

[Blue and White Army]

On 14/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, Rheo said:

You may be right but I'll bet on a similar structure to MLS including a draft.  I don't see anyone signing with a different league as a any type of hit.  It's not a hit on the CFL when they draft a Canadian and he chooses to go the NFL.  Just gives the team the rights to the player.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I agree with Ted on this subject.

Drafts in U.S./Canadian pro sports are generally large events that are used to get media attention as well as build excitement about the upcoming season and marquee players. There's a good chance that a large number of players (possibly the majority of top picks) would opt to go elsewhere despite being drafted by a CanPL club. That wouldn't look good for the league.

The CFL example you made arguably only has limited merit. How many CFL draftees end up signing with NFL clubs? I assume relatively few. Additionally, there are really only two pro throwball leagues in the world.

Meanwhile, pretty much every country in the world has a soccer league and could appeal to Canadian youngsters. From this continent alone, players will weigh up offers from MLS, NASL, USL, and possibly Liga MX clubs. Europe will remain a major attraction, especially in terms of development quality (calibre of coaching, etc.).

"Discovery" picks are always a gamble (e.g. should Atlanta United of MLS "discover" Leo Messi?), and clubs understand that the greatest risk brings with it the biggest potential reward. But do you want that in a draft?

Do you want clubs to be risk-averse and intentionally draft mediocre players? If that were to be the case, CanPL would not get any meaningful media coverage from the draft.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but USL (A-League?) previously had a draft. It was axed. CanPL should learn from this history, rather than repeating such mistakes.

[Macksam]

9 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Lots of going for the man rather than the ball going on, which suggests that nobody sees an obvious flaw in the arguments in that last post. I'm actually very optimistic about the future of pro soccer in Canada. Fifteen years ago anybody suggesting there would be a Toronto pro soccer franchise averaging about 25,000 paying spectators that would be able to attract an Italian national team player from Juventus at the prime of his career might have been held for psychiatric assessment. I'm confident MLS (and by extension USL) will be the vehicle that transforms things in a similar way in the next fifteen years to a point that will start to approach Joe MacCarthy's worst nightmares where the status of the CFL is concerned.

Don Garber re confirmed yet again the other day that MLS expansion in Canada reached its limit. You can't expect USL pro clubs in places like Calgary and Winnipeg to overtake their CFL counterparts. NASL might be a possibility. Everyone here is optimistic about the future of the sport in this country. However, harnessing the growing popularity of the sport into USL expansion across the country is a misallocation of resources. We can and will do better.

[Kent]

16 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Following on from that, if I were a CPL enthusiast (I do understand the mindset as it was how I initially viewed the original CSL in the late 1980s when I was in my twenties), I would be disappointed that it's the Ticats that have registered CPL as a trademark, because it suggests it's a one man band setup at the moment

This is the first thing that I can think of regarding the CPL that I agree with BBTB. It does seem odd to me that one of the potential ownership teams is the one registering the trademark. I am still hopeful for this league, but this is definitely a curious detail.

[Blue and White Army]

The league will be based in Hamilton. If the Tiger-Cats are heavily involved, it makes sense to use their offices until the CanPL gets its own, separate office.

We could potentially view it as a positive that the CanPL isn't using the CSA offices in Ottawa for its current address. For example, MLS isn't run by the USSF...

[ted]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

This is the first thing that I can think of regarding the CPL that I agree with BBTB. It does seem odd to me that one of the potential ownership teams is the one registering the trademark. I am still hopeful for this league, but this is definitely a curious detail.

Really? It seems logical to me if this is true and Hamilton is leading the charge. Someone has to get the registration in so why not the most public "face" of the potential league. I'm still pretty skeptical about this league but this doesn't bother me one bit.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The reason I found it a bit strange was that back in February, Victor Montagliani was making it sound like the CSA were the main driving force behind the CPL when interviewed by the Toronto Sun:

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/02/16/montagliani-has-a-mountain-to-climb

Canadian Soccer Association president Victor Montagliani says the Canadian Premier League will have a business plan by mid-year.

Asked what that plan entails, the CSA’s top boss wouldn’t go into specifics with the Toronto Sun.

“We’ve had a report done. Now we’re having a specific business plan as it relates to the stake holders we’ve been talking to,” he said.

...

“The type of stakeholders we’re talking to are serious people with serious ability and serious intent,” Montagliani said.

“This is not something that is mutually exclusive of MLS. This is inclusive.”

I would have expected to see 237 Metcalfe Street, Ottawa as the address for anything league launch related after reading that, if it wasn't a case of Montagliani being very much in electioneering mode for the CONCACAF and CSA president positions. Fast forward eight months and now the CSA have nothing to say about it when contacted by CBC Hamilton, and the recent Guardian article seemed to make the CPL concept sound more like a threat to gain leverage with MLS in negotiations over domestic player rules. I don't think we have been getting the full story of what is happening, only leaks of material usually to fringe figures in the media like Duane Rollins and Anthony Totera that can be relied upon to relay it uncritically that is designed to fit the agendas of the key figures that are involved at any given moment. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

 

[Gopherbashi]

Look, I'll say this much to agree with Blizzard - if it *is* the case that the league is basically one team right now, and the whole announcement is going to be "who wants to be teams 2 through 8?", then the idea should be scrapped.

Yes, I want the idea to work, but I also want it to work well.  If you have to pull teeth to make it happen, there's not a high likelihood of that being the case.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I think from what has been said about the stadium deal in Hamilton, we could make this conclusion: the only reason they are moving on things is because they have to show that they are active to maintain their status as first option for soccer at the new venue. It is like staking a claim for mineral prospecting, if you don't explore, you can lose the claim.

So Hamilton is making noise.

That suggests that the only activity clearly taking place in CPL ownership is in fact activity bound by external contractual considerations and not by any substantial evidence for a league project to be advancing. And it also explains why there is piss all happening anywhere else.

[ted]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The reason I found it a bit strange was that back in February, Victor Montagliani was making it sound like the CSA were the main driving force behind the CPL...

Given the track record of the CSA I am relieved they are not leading the actual formation of the league. I am thankful they got the ball rolling so to speak but I would prefer they did not meddle in the actual business of getting the league going.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

Look, I'll say this much to agree with Blizzard - if it *is* the case that the league is basically one team right now, and the whole announcement is going to be "who wants to be teams 2 through 8?", then the idea should be scrapped.

Yes, I want the idea to work, but I also want it to work well.  If you have to pull teeth to make it happen, there's not a high likelihood of that being the case.

I mean, we don't know that FOR SURE.  It's probably the case and that's what I would bet on, but it is still possible that everyone has been tight-lipped about what's going on behind closed doors and that they somehow have all the investors they need.

Like I said, I'm not betting on it, but it is possible.

Honestly though, even if they announce it only as Hamilton, at least they're making noise and being ambitious.  Worst case scenario we end up with at least one extra NASL team, which wouldn't be the end of the world.  Best case scenario we get 8 CPL teams, medium cased scenario maybe 2-4 NASL teams and a Canadian division in NASL.

Whatever happens, no one can tell me that the Hamilton news is a bad thing.  It's just a question of how good it will be.

 

[Gopherbashi]

2 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Honestly though, even if they announce it only as Hamilton, at least they're making noise and being ambitious.

Such an ambitious city, they are.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Just now, Gopherbashi said:

Such an ambitious city, they are.

[Gopherbashi]

Side note: does anyone else play xpert eleven?  I feel like it's just asking for us to set up a virtual CPL...

[TRM]

Hey if one of the names is Hamilton Steelers maybe they can get the coolest logo in pro sports for their team

 

The Chilean soccer club Huachipato has a mirror image of the Pittsburgh Steelers logo as part of its shield

[ironcub14]

Just wanted to say, BBTB is a good buddy of mine from a Toronto SG, and I have seen over the months and years how much expertise both he, and many of you on this thread, has on the history and complexities of Canadian club footy. Really learning a lot from reading the board and just seeing the back and forth debates.

To say it real quickly, I can see how, for those V's who have seen the original NASL, the original CSL and the CUSL, and all the other acronyms in the alphabet soup that have graced this nation over the decades, I can easily see how one could be skeptical of the various things that we have seen and heard on the CPL over the last year or two, or if not that, at least the viability of launching and/or sustaining a future CPL.

Yeah, they could be a bit optimistic or a bit less gloomy in their words. But their experience and their warnings are definitely not to be unheeded. This CPL as has been discussed in this thread, it would truly be making history, as it would have to break free from all the failures of a Canadian league in the past. And considering this is the CPL thread of the V's forum, it is quite easy to develop a mob mentality on a thread that is geared towards such a specific and ambitious project.

Hoping to continue to see, for the most part, a good open, courteous and logic-driven discourse on this subject over the months. Even if some of the stuff we say here may defy logic time to time

[ironcub14]

On 2016-10-15 at 8:03 PM, Macksam said:

Don Garber re confirmed yet again the other day that MLS expansion in Canada reached its limit. You can't expect USL pro clubs in places like Calgary and Winnipeg to overtake their CFL counterparts. NASL might be a possibility. Everyone here is optimistic about the future of the sport in this country. However, harnessing the growing popularity of the sport into USL expansion across the country is a misallocation of resources. We can and will do better.

The USL in 2016 may not be the USL First Division of the old, but did we not see an incredible number of successes in the old USL First Division? And that it did not necessarily have to depend every single time on a future move to MLS?

Just from a quick glance, I feel there has been as many success stories from the USL as there has been from NASL since their split in 2011.

I understand that CPL should be the top priority in allocating our resources, but I think the next 2 years will tell if USL expansion will have to be the more pragmatic way to go or not. Am hoping to see further good news come out on the CPL front over the next year and two. Maybe in the next few months.

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, ironcub14 said:

I understand that CPL should be the top priority in allocating our resources, but I think the next 2 years will tell if USL expansion will have to be the more pragmatic way to go or not. Am hoping to see further good news come out on the CPL front over the next year and two. Maybe in the next few months.

I definitely hope there would be something in the next few months.  Even the CSA-delivered timetables (ie. the Spectator article from February stating June) have passed us by, not to mention the original leaked timetables which would have has us playing by now.

Every delay makes me more concerned that they're running into unexpected issues with this concept, and not a type of issue like "which of these billionaires should we allow to field a team in the league?"

[Kent]

On 15/10/2016 at 10:47 PM, Blue and White Army said:

The league will be based in Hamilton. If the Tiger-Cats are heavily involved, it makes sense to use their offices until the CanPL gets its own, separate office.

We could potentially view it as a positive that the CanPL isn't using the CSA offices in Ottawa for its current address. For example, MLS isn't run by the USSF...

But was the MLS trademark ever held by, say, the owners of DC United? I honestly don't know who registered trademarks for MLS when that league started up, but it seems odd that a potential founding team has trademarked the league name for CPL.

[ted]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

But was the MLS trademark ever held by, say, the owners of DC United? I honestly don't know who registered trademarks for MLS when that league started up, but it seems odd that a potential founding team has trademarked the league name for CPL.

Hey Kent, I assume you are really young and/or new to the MLS because there was no "DC United" or any other team when MLS started. It was (and is) a single-entity structure which means that the league owned everything on day one and split up the markets they wanted amongst the investors. The league itself created the teams, named them, designed crests and decided on colour schemes and trademarks.