Canadian Premier League

[matty]

27 minutes ago, reme90 said:

...This is what I don't get about the naysayers to an open system.  On one hand they say

"No Investor will invest knowing he could be relegated and lose his investment"

Then on the other hand

"Canada CANNOT support more than a handful of teams" 

Which is it, then? If you cant dream of having enough teams to EVER relegate anyone, than WHAT is the objection to having an OPEN system where any investor or organization can EARN their Promotion into the Premier League????

 

I didn't say Canada couldn't have enough pro teams, I just said it would take time. Likely longer than 20 years. BTW love how you outright cropped a quote and ignored the rest of the quote mentioning a tiered system where teams would have to earn their place in a league.

I have said this several times already but wait and see on what the A-League does over the next few years because it'll likely give you a time line for when the CPL will begin to open up.

[reme90]

2 hours ago, matty said:

This is what I was talking about when I said "claims that make little sense at times". You want a libertarian league model but are fine with franchise elements being included and with protecting teams.

Would you be happy if the CPL became a franchise based system with say 16-20 teams over two leagues (tier 1 and 2) with the bottom table finishers in each tier 1 conference being swapped out for the top finishers of the tier 2 conferences? That's likely going to be what happens in the A-League soon http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/a-league/head-of-aleague-greg-orourke-maps-out-what-happens-now-for-expansion-to-take-place-in-australia/news-story/fd7b6285712e78acf12acb63a362e0ed

Revenue sharing is not a franchise element. The English Premier League does it. It even helps with payments to relegated clubs to help soften the financial blow. Playoffs are not just franchise as well, as CUP competitions are in all leagues. 

I think most people believe that an OPEN system is all about PRO/REL. It's not, it's about allowing any player, any club, any community, any coach, any system a chance to compete with the best. 

37 minutes ago, matty said:

I didn't say Canada couldn't have enough pro teams, I just said it would take time. Likely longer than 20 years. BTW love how you outright cropped a quote and ignored the rest of the quote mentioning a tiered system where teams would have to earn their place in a league.

I have said this several times already but wait and see on what the A-League does over the next few years because it'll likely give you a time line for when the CPL will begin to open up.

I cropped it out because in a Franchise system, you do not EARN your way INTO the league, you BUY into it. That's not Merit-based and it would effectively remove the ONLY incentive for any club or organization or investor to building a club from scratch. It's why MLS took over a decade to grow and was all but bankrupt before that. Having PRO/REL within the same league whether it is tiered or not is not an open system. No-one would be allowed to play in the league unless they bought a franchise first. In other words, billionaires only need apply. 

If we had an open system, any club/organization/investor can build a club that represents it's community with minimal financial risk and build significant excitement and enthusiasm with the stated goal of earning promotion into the Premier League. 

A stated intent to play in Division 1 soccer, would attract other investors, it would also bring on-board city councils, particularly those in smaller communities who will never get an NBA,NHL,MLB or NFL team and it would engage the community to become true supporters (see SAC FC/ ORL FC). MOST importantly for our CANMNT, it would prioritize the Quality on the field, as you would need field success to EARN the right to compete with the very best. It's not about dollars but about results, something this country desperately needs. 

And isn't player development what we all want after all? 

I want to win a World Cup and I want to do it before the USA does it. IF they stay franchise and we do OPEN system, we will be leaps and bounds ahead of them to get there first. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

9 hours ago, masster said:

One thing that has changed is 5,000 people showing up regularly to watch NASL caliber football in Ottawa. I think a reasonable case could be made that a Canadian league could be sustainable with 7 other cities targeting that level of support

How many of them are actually paying for their tickets? They are practically giving tickets away to youth soccer clubs from what I understand, so I suspect it's similar to the recent revelation that Rayo Oklahoma City's announced 4500 average was really only 1300 or so in terms of paid tickets when figures related to a ticket surcharge to the local school board for the stadium rental were revealed publicly. I strongly suspect that FC Edmonton's 2000 average would be as good as it gets in terms of paid attendance outside of the three major MLS team markets, which is why both Edmonton and Ottawa are currently reported to be losing well over $1,000,000 per season given break even on paid attendance is said to be somewhere in the 7500 to 9000 range at an NASL level of operations.

[Ansem]

On another note, how everyone feels about scheduling for CPL? My thoughts are:

• Avoid Wednesday and Saturdays to avoid MLS 
• Avoid Friday, Saturday and Sunday afternoons to avoid CFL (I had no clue CFL was broadcast on ESPN 2)
• MLS sometimes plays 1 match on Fridays and sometimes on Sunday, usually in the afternoon
• CPL should own Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday evening
• CPL should have a "Match of the week" on Sunday nights on CBC and French SRC broadcasting across the country. Even for free if necessary. The league needs exposure and nothing beats CBC. 1 Match, Sunday Night.
• Respect FIFA International breaks (Most likely CSA will pressure the league to make players available for matches and practises)

Anyone wants to add to it?

[zen]

9 hours ago, reme90 said:

NO, Franchise system is to Club Soccer what Taco Bell is to my Latina grandmothers tacos. Or in other words it's not authentic and the educated fan will reject it. Just like the VAST majority of soccer-first families in the USA have rejected MLS. The Canadian Footy fan is getting more educated, especially now with the availability of World Soccer only a remote control away. 

Franchises are for the Filthy Rich Owners, Clubs are for the Community

If we are realistic in our expectations we can get to more than 20. Maybe not $300million stadiums with 60k fans per team big, but 5k-15k with soccer specific stadiums like those suggested in other threads. That is doable. 

Essentially, the promise promotes club investment, while rewarding initial investors for taking the first plunge. 

This is what I don't get about the naysayers to an open system.  On one hand they say

"No Investor will invest knowing he could be relegated and lose his investment"

Then on the other hand

"Canada CANNOT support more than a handful of teams" 

Which is it, then? If you cant dream of having enough teams to EVER relegate anyone, than WHAT is the objection to having an OPEN system where any investor or organization can EARN their Promotion into the Premier League????

 

you're deluded

[shorty]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

On another note, how everyone feels about scheduling for CPL? My thoughts are:

• Avoid Wednesday and Saturdays to avoid MLS 
• Avoid Friday, Saturday and Sunday afternoons to avoid CFL (I had no clue CFL was broadcast on ESPN 2)
• MLS sometimes plays 1 match on Fridays and sometimes on Sunday, usually in the afternoon
• CPL should own Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday evening
• CPL should have a "Match of the week" on Sunday nights on CBC and French SRC broadcasting across the country. Even for free if necessary. The league needs exposure and nothing beats CBC. 1 Match, Sunday Night.
• Respect FIFA International breaks (Most likely CSA will pressure the league to make players available for matches and practises)

Anyone wants to add to it?

Play a winter schedule, October to April.  Every team plays on turf and is provided with a turf Zamboni to clear snow (or in Victoria's case, cherry and plum blossoms).  That way the next generation of CanMNT players will be well prepped and ready to go for fall and winter FIFA WCQ dates against Central American teams, which we will schedule for Fort Mac, High Level, Churchill, Dawson City, etc., all of which will be part of the Can PL pyramid by then. 

(In all seriousness, I like the above post, and sincerely hope the powers that be consider their broadcast competition carefully when they work on scheduling.)

[Pqhbv]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

On another note, how everyone feels about scheduling for CPL? My thoughts are:

• Avoid Wednesday and Saturdays to avoid MLS 
• Avoid Friday, Saturday and Sunday afternoons to avoid CFL (I had no clue CFL was broadcast on ESPN 2)
• MLS sometimes plays 1 match on Fridays and sometimes on Sunday, usually in the afternoon
• CPL should own Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday evening
• CPL should have a "Match of the week" on Sunday nights on CBC and French SRC broadcasting across the country. Even for free if necessary. The league needs exposure and nothing beats CBC. 1 Match, Sunday Night.
• Respect FIFA International breaks (Most likely CSA will pressure the league to make players available for matches and practises)

Anyone wants to add to it?

I think they should have all games on one day if possible. Then again I appear to be the only one who thinks this is important. 

I have another idea though... Let's say they go the CFL route and are playing in the same stadiums and cities. Then you could schedule Hamilton @ MTL in the CPL while Montreal @ HAM is happening in the CFL on the same day but not time. It creates a sort of football/soccer derby between the cities and allows for the CPL to have games on favourable Friday, Saturday time slots.

[masster]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

On another note, how everyone feels about scheduling for CPL? My thoughts are:

• Avoid Wednesday and Saturdays to avoid MLS 
• Avoid Friday, Saturday and Sunday afternoons to avoid CFL (I had no clue CFL was broadcast on ESPN 2)
• MLS sometimes plays 1 match on Fridays and sometimes on Sunday, usually in the afternoon
• CPL should own Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday evening
• CPL should have a "Match of the week" on Sunday nights on CBC and French SRC broadcasting across the country. Even for free if necessary. The league needs exposure and nothing beats CBC. 1 Match, Sunday Night.
• Respect FIFA International breaks (Most likely CSA will pressure the league to make players available for matches and practises)

Anyone wants to add to it?

Totally disagree. Friday and Saturday nights are when I want to go to games. People are free, want a night out. Midweek games on Tuesday and Thursday would be tough sells.

[shermanator]

Sounds like Maxim Tissot is interested in playing in the CPL if the league is at a decent level after a few years.

http://stonymondayriot.com/smr-interview-series-maxim-tissot-midfielder/

There have been very strong rumours about a Canadian League.
It’s important. So again, if MLS doesn’t oblige to that rule of foreign players, even if they do, I mean it’s important to have a league in Canada. Cause we hear a lot about Vancouver, Edmonton, Ottawa, but there’s a lot of other regions where we could develop players and bring in that league and try to get teams in other regions out East for example, would be great for Canadian soccer. Apart from moving here or to Toronto or Montreal there isn’t really a way to make it to a professional level when you’re from over there. So it’s important for growth in Canada for sure.

How would you feel about playing in that league?
It all depends, I mean, it’ll start from scratch so I don’t know what the level’s going to look like, attendance, but for sure after a few years if it’s good, I’ll come for sure.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, masster said:

Totally disagree. Friday and Saturday nights are when I want to go to games. People are free, want a night out. Midweek games on Tuesday and Thursday would be tough sells.

Tell that to the Jays.

The end game is to have CPL be successful on TV and at the gates regardless of the time and day they play, however, at launch, it would be wise to compete against the CFL and MLS right from the get go. You want to have access to as much fans as possible during a time when there's nothing else to watch.

CPL needs to establish itself first and succeed in areas where it's less likely to fail like being on TV when there's nothing else to watch or nothing else to go see. If CPL gets good numbers during those times and gets established enough, then you can move it against MLS then CFL.

It's like introducing a brand new show on TV where you have no clue how it's going to be received. Putting it on the Sunday Night time slot is suicide as no one would pick your show over The Walking  Dead or Game of Thrones

[masster]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Tell that to the Jays.

The end game is to have CPL be successful on TV and at the gates regardless of the time and day they play, however, at launch, it would be wise to compete against the CFL and MLS right from the get go. You want to have access to as much fans as possible during a time when there's nothing else to watch.

CPL needs to establish itself first and succeed in areas where it's less likely to fail like being on TV when there's nothing else to watch or nothing else to go see. If CPL gets good numbers during those times and gets established enough, then you can move it against MLS then CFL.

It's like introducing a brand new show on TV where you have no clue how it's going to be received. Putting it on the Sunday Night time slot is suicide as no one would pick your show over The Walking  Dead or Game of Thrones

This is going to be a gate driven league, not a TV audience driven league. You need to have games on days/nights when people will be willing to go to the stadium, not fight after work traffic on school nights.

[shermanator]

I agree with @masster, games on Friday / Saturday nights are an absolute must. I've experienced this first hand with Calgary Foothills. In their first year, very few people wanted to go to Tuesday or Wednesday night games. When they moved some games to Friday nights this year, those were much better sells.

The odd Wednesday night game is fine, but they are tough sells.

[Ansem]

33 minutes ago, masster said:

This is going to be a gate driven league, not a TV audience driven league. You need to have games on days/nights when people will be willing to go to the stadium, not fight after work traffic on school nights.

Without a TV audience, that's lots of MUCH NEEDED revenues the league can't afford to not get.

Like I said, hockey, basketball and baseball aren't affected by that because they had decades and sometime a century to establish themselves. Took decades for MLS to be relevant. CPL doesn't have that, it's brand new.

Traffic and school nights won't stop you to go see a game you really want to see but, who goes out of their way to see a product that never existed before? a product no one knows yet? They'll take a look when and if it's convenient to them. Why not just do that and make it convenient?

In the summer, MLS and CFL are the main competitor to CPL. You can't win in the west against CFL so I think Sundays makes more sense then Friday and Saturdays nights which CFL has locked down. You might not know this but CFL TV ratings are actually good during those times.

Those 2 leagues barely plays on Sundays and you might as well have them play on Tuesday or Thursdays (after UEFA Champions league matches during then spring)  outside of MLS Wednesday nights on top of the Sunday on both cable and the featured match on CBC

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, shermanator said:

I agree with @masster, games on Friday / Saturday nights are an absolute must. I've experienced this first hand with Calgary Foothills. In their first year, very few people wanted to go to Tuesday or Wednesday night games. When they moved some games to Friday nights this year, those were much better sells.

The odd Wednesday night game is fine, but they are tough sells.

But CPL wants higher viewership and spectators than what the Foothills draws. To give themselves a chance to meet those targets, they can't go compete against MLS and CFL on the same nights right off the bat.

I insist on the fact that they aren't only targeting soccer fans but they are trying to attract new fans as well and fill a vacuum. So might as well occupy the whole vacuum for yourself

[Gopherbashi]

There's only 4 CFL games across the country every week.  I'm sure we can find a way to schedule around them without resorting to midweek games.

[shermanator]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

But CPL wants higher viewership and spectators than what the Foothills draws. To give themselves a chance to meet those targets, they can't go compete against MLS and CFL on the same nights right of the bat.

Will the TV contract pay the bills, or will butts in seats?

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Will the TV contract pay the bills, or will butts in seats?

Both

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

There's only 4 CFL games across the country every week.  I'm sure we can find a way to schedule around them without resorting to midweek games.

You needs 2 days as you want the viewers to be able to see all of them if possible. That's why CFL uses 2 days instead of 1 so matches aren't being played at the same time on TV.

[shermanator]

Just now, Ansem said:

Both

Both are important long term, but which is going to pay more of the bills off the bat when the league is trying to generate financial stability? TSN isn't going to throw millions of dollars at an unknown quantity.

[Pqhbv]

No one likes my idea of having CFL-CPL home and away games tied to the same day but at different start/finish times eh?

I thought it was kind of neat. It also gets around some of the problems being put forward by others.

@Ansem   CFL on ESPN2 outperforms MLS for TV ratings in the US frequently. I think cooperation and collaboration with the CFL would be ideal. Competition with the MLS I'm all for.

[Rheo]

2 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Will the TV contract pay the bills, or will butts in seats?

Both will help and be needed.  

I'm sure if TSN is a major player in this (as has been rumoured) that the games will be away from CFL.  Or maybe packaged with them as a double header.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Pqhbv said:

No one likes my idea of having CFL-CPL home and away games tied to the same day but at different start/finish times eh?

I thought it was kind of neat. It also gets around some of the problems being put forward by others.

@Ansem   CFL on ESPN2 outperforms MLS for TV ratings in the US frequently. I think cooperation and collaboration with the CFL would be ideal. Competition with the MLS I'm all for.

CFL renting their stadiums to CPL clubs is a huge sign of cooperation but I doubt that will go farther then that unless a owner owns the club from both franchise.

No way will the CFL league promote another sports

[Gopherbashi]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You needs 2 days as you want the viewers to be able to see all of them if possible. That's why CFL uses 2 days instead of 1 so matches aren't being played at the same time on TV.

Sure, but how many people in the east are going to be tuning in to see Highlanders v Foothills?  There's no reason why you can't have a CFL game broadcast in the east while a CPL game is on in the west. 

[Gopherbashi]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Both are important long term, but which is going to pay more of the bills off the bat when the league is trying to generate financial stability? TSN isn't going to throw millions of dollars at an unknown quantity.

And TSN won't spend an additional dime on CPL if viewership are in the basement either. TSN will most likely lowball CPL from the get go, meaning you have a short window to improve viewership so when the renewal contract time comes, you can demand more.

If you neglect that, your league won't grow, owners will lose money and get pissed at whoever thought that competing against MLS and CFL directly was a good idea.