Canadian Premier League

[lazlo_80]

If any of you haven't, I encourage you to listen to the latest from the black hole. Some good chatter at the end about the CPL. No new news but some really good and desperately needed perspective. 

[Gopherbashi]

38 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

Maybe I was reading too much into things they've written, but they have stressed that the CPL is not intended to compete with MLS (hence why it's highly unlikely that they'd be forcing the 3 MLS teams out, in order to get those 3 markets into CPL only). To me that idea, along with the hinted-at NASL salary levels, suggests that it's viewed as a small step below MLS, i.e. "D2", whether they call it that officially or not.

Having said that, I feel like I've seen some comments on one or both of their twitters along those lines, but I don't find it particularly easy to search a couple years worth of tweets for "D2" or "D1" (I tried a quick google search of their accounts with no luck for either term).

I don't know that the CSA has formal criteria for D1, D2, or D3 leagues; moreso it seems to just be a general hierarchy.  The CPL = D2 conjecture is largely a result of 1) its place under MLS in terms of expected talent, revenue, notoriety, etc., and 2) the expectation that it will have a similar budget & reach as NASL, which is already described as D2.

I've also seen references to the CPL being "Division 1A", which I can only assume means "We're going to pretend we're D1 for marketing purposes, but MLS is around and we're nowhere near them so we're including this little asterisk in the form of a letter."

[rob.notenboom]

17 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

If any of you haven't, I encourage you to listen to the latest from the black hole. Some good chatter at the end about the CPL. No new news but some really good and desperately needed perspective. 

Hey thanks Lazlo. Much appreciated. And of course all of the sensible perspective came from Steve and not me.

[Ansem]

Omg enough with the focus on D1 vs D2 etc...

Who cares?

We can all agree that La Liga who's D1 in Spain isn't on the same level as France's Ligue 1. But Ligue 1 is still division 1 despite being weaker than La Liga, right?

Liga MX is division 1 but nowhere near Bundesliga who's also Division 1.

So CPL can be division 1 in Canada while MLS is division 1 in the US. Didn't Ottawa beat Vancouver Whitecaps this year once? Didn't Edmonton FC almost beat Montreal Impact last year?

Let's stop that fixation on that shall we?

[matty]

2 hours ago, Macksam said:

A CPL team should be allowed to draft from there. If an MLS team drafts a player that a CPL team is also interested in, the CPL team has to weigh out the risks/rewards to see if it's worth using a spot on a guy that's already been drafted by another league and yes, it would turn into a bidding war/what avenue the player thinks would be better for career development.

I agree fully and hope the CPL has a NCAA draft. Curious to see how it plays out

[matty]

5 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

What other country has teams in TWO separate D1 leagues?

Aside from Wales and New Zealand (the popular choices), England, Northern Ireland, Brunei, Singapore and, depending on what you call a D1, Liechtenstein all have two top flights playing in them. You could also include India but I've heard the I-League is being downgraded to D2, also I don't think they fit in with what you're asking.

[mpg_29]

10 hours ago, Ansem said:

Omg enough with the focus on D1 vs D2 etc...

Who cares?

We can all agree that La Liga who's D1 in Spain isn't on the same level as France's Ligue 1. But Ligue 1 is still division 1 despite being weaker than La Liga, right?

Liga MX is division 1 but nowhere near Bundesliga who's also Division 1.

So CPL can be division 1 in Canada while MLS is division 1 in the US. Didn't Ottawa beat Vancouver Whitecaps this year once? Didn't Edmonton FC almost beat Montreal Impact last year?

Let's stop that fixation on that shall we?

You are missing the point though.  Without some formal partnership and acknowledgement of hierarchy from the CSA between the 3 MLS teams and CanPL they will be in direct competition with each other whether they admit it or not.

And I think at most risk for the CanPL is losing out higher quality Canadian players to the MLS clubs. Which will then dilute the on field product of the CanPL (which will be very tough on what I am guessing will be a new struggling league).

So in my mind CanPL will lose hard if competing with the MLS clubs for young Canadian talent. You think TFC with it's resources and Vancouver Whitecaps with it's academies all over the country will just roll over...no way. And that is only from club perspective. I'm betting if Canadian players have a choice they would choose the MLS over CanPL for money and career opportunities.

So like I said before there are 2 obvious choices

1) MLS teams have to go...somehow

2) There is an agreement and acknowledgement of hierarchy from the start and MLS can have it's second teams playing in CanPL (with completely separate branding of first team)

[ironcub14]

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

Omg enough with the focus on D1 vs D2 etc...

Who cares?

We can all agree that La Liga who's D1 in Spain isn't on the same level as France's Ligue 1. But Ligue 1 is still division 1 despite being weaker than La Liga, right?

Liga MX is division 1 but nowhere near Bundesliga who's also Division 1.

So CPL can be division 1 in Canada while MLS is division 1 in the US. Didn't Ottawa beat Vancouver Whitecaps this year once? Didn't Edmonton FC almost beat Montreal Impact last year?

Let's stop that fixation on that shall we?

CSA's official designation of the CPL, as well as its formal relationship and placement within the Canadian football league system of MLS, NASL, USL, PDL, L1O and PLSQ, will have a number of real-life ramifications, such as the CCL spots, that's why it's a matter of focus. And the fact that the 3 MLS sides in Canada are here to stay for the time being, whether we like it or not, and are considered, officially or unofficially, I'm not sure which but doesn't really matter, D1 in Canada at the present moment. And I don't see that changing either, for numerous reasons that tie closely to the reasons as to why the 3 MLS clubs are not going anywhere soon that have already been repeated up-thread.

That said, I'm encouraged to see that both Wales and New Zealand have their national leagues officially designated as D1 in their system.

[ironcub14]

12 hours ago, lazlo_80 said:

If any of you haven't, I encourage you to listen to the latest from the black hole. Some good chatter at the end about the CPL. No new news but some really good and desperately needed perspective. 

 

11 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

Hey thanks Lazlo. Much appreciated. And of course all of the sensible perspective came from Steve and not me.

Would either of you guys be kind enough to give a quick 2-3 bullet point summary if you have the time? I was just talking to Steve on the V's FB group yesterday on the topic, and he definitely provides great insight, I have a lot of respect for his work on the Eddies.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

You are missing the point though.  Without some formal partnership and acknowledgement of hierarchy from the CSA between the 3 MLS teams and CanPL they will be in direct competition with each other whether they admit it or not.

The CSA can dictate the Division level within Canada without needing any of the 3 MLS input. The CSA mandate is towards Canada, not those 3 MLS franchise.

5 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

And I think at most risk for the CanPL is losing out higher quality Canadian players to the MLS clubs. Which will then dilute the on field product of the CanPL (which will be very tough on what I am guessing will be a new struggling league).

Less than 4% of MLS players are Canadians, so I don't see those 3 MLS clubs getting all the Canadian talents around except those they develop through their academies. Even those players are unlikely to start and see regular action, meaning they are most likely to get loaned to CPL clubs anyways. It's a fact that Canadians rarely starts in MLS.

7 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

So in my mind CanPL will lose hard if competing with the MLS clubs for young Canadian talent. You think TFC with it's resources and Vancouver Whitecaps with it's academies all over the country will just roll over...no way. And that is only from club perspective. I'm betting if Canadian players have a choice they would choose the MLS over CanPL for money and career opportunities.

I answered your point above. The big 3 might develop quality players in the future but for the short to mid-term, they are unlikely to start them except a select few. The rest are most likely going to join CPL where they get to start and/or will be loaned to CPL

9 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

So like I said before there are 2 obvious choices

1) MLS teams have to go...somehow

2) There is an agreement and acknowledgement of hierarchy from the start and MLS can have it's second teams playing in CanPL (with completely separate branding of first team)

The Wales model have been brought up many times. Toronto is big enough for both MLS and CPL. I don't know Vancouver market but I could guess Surrey could work. I know Montreal inside out and I don't see it working there. Best to stick to Quebec City.

So they don't necessarily need to go.

MLS B Teams in CPL is the worst idea ever. It would doom that league from the get go

[mpg_29]

16 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The CSA can dictate the Division level within Canada without needing any of the 3 MLS input. The CSA mandate is towards Canada, not those 3 MLS franchise.

CSA/CanPL needs to work something out with MLS teams is my point.

 

23 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

17 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Less than 4% of MLS players are Canadians, so I don't see those 3 MLS clubs getting all the Canadian talents around except those they develop through their academies.

Virtually all of Canadian players in MLS are with the Canadian MLS teams. I read somewhere that only 3 Canadians are on US MLS teams.

20 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Even those players are unlikely to start and see regular action, meaning they are most likely to get loaned to CPL clubs anyways. It's a fact that Canadians rarely starts in MLS.

Glad you are admitting CanPL will effectively be D2.

22 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I answered your point above. The big 3 might develop quality players in the future but for the short to mid-term, they are unlikely to start them except a select few. The rest are most likely going to join CPL where they get to start and/or will be loaned to CPL

Again, glad you are admitting CanPL will effectively be D2.

24 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The Wales model have been brought up many times. Toronto is big enough for both MLS and CPL. I don't know Vancouver market but I could guess Surrey could work. I know Montreal inside out and I don't see it working there. Best to stick to Quebec City.

So they don't necessarily need to go.

MLS B Teams in CPL is the worst idea ever. It would doom that league from the get go

Not as bad as an idea as CanPL ignoring MLS teams and pretending it is equal quality product.

[Complete Homer]

^ Having reserve teams will torpedo the perception of the league. The quality of league will undoubtedly start at USL level if we have a 50% Canadian quota (closer to NASL if that quota is lower), but the question is if we want it to stay there

I truly believe CPL has the potential to be the 3rd best league in CONCACAF. If we accept B teams we will not get there. 

MLS is an important aspect here. I think a good chunk of the Canadians that will fill out this league will be academy prospects that weren't quite good enough to earn a senior contract. They are also important as a competitor for V-Cup, as a goal for young top-end CPL products, etc. Once the leagues have coexisted for a while, I am sure there will be a productive relationship with loans as well. But unless they are willing to put an independent team in the league, I don't think they should be involved intimately. Their comments about moving up the U20 team from L1O as "TFC III" (where they are only mid table by the way) shows that they have no interest driving the ambitions of the league

[Ansem]

43 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

CSA/CanPL needs to work something out with MLS teams is my point.

 

Virtually all of Canadian players in MLS are with the Canadian MLS teams. I read somewhere that only 3 Canadians are on US MLS teams.

Glad you are admitting CanPL will effectively be D2.

Again, glad you are admitting CanPL will effectively be D2.

Not as bad as an idea as CanPL ignoring MLS teams and pretending it is equal quality product.

So La Liga loaning players to Eredivisie makes that league a division 2? Weird logic. Division 1 leagues in Europe loan each other players all the time.

Is Eredivisie the same quality as la Liga? Hell no, but the Netherlands soccer association still sanctioned it as Division 1. That's their prerogative, same for the CSA. They don't need any input from MLS Clubs to brand CPL as Division 1.

Sorry but I get very aggravated reading post exhibiting inferiority complexes towards the United States. Look at the CCL and the teams that goes there. Would CPL be the strongest Division 1 league in CONCACAF? Hell no, but we'd be far from the worst either. CPL should be around NASL level depending on the initial quotas on domestic players, which someone using maths yesterday made the point should be lower than increased gradually over time as more quality players are developed.

Like I always said, strip most MLS clubs from their DP and international players and the quality becomes horrible. I trust CSA to find the right balance at the beginning of this league and scout for quality international players & DPs to help our Canadian players get better and provide better quality on the pitch. CPL will improve over time.

[ironcub14]

I'm going to at least make this suggestion for at least consideration, based on all the interesting information coming out over the past week.

I personally want to see a CPL that is as large as possible, as long as they are all financially sustainable and backed up by the Billionaire Boys Club, or at least by some seriously financially stable owners, such as all the groups listed up-thread. I would like to see a league as large as possible, as a higher % of matches between teams that are more in close proximity may help in a number of ways, such as rivalry-wise, transportation costs (may seem counter-intuitive but I can explain in a few sentences if you'd like), etc. And it's always nice to see a larger footy league table, up to the magic number of 20 for me, at least. 8 teams sounds like a pretty small number for me. 12-14 would be ideal for me and I'm sure for many people, as long as they are all financially sustainable.

So with that said, and with my arguments for reserve sides already stated up-thread, I don't see what's too wrong with having 2 Toronto CPL sides at all. One backed by a prospective individual owner such as Goldhar, an independent CPL club that the Toronto V's here and those who are anti-MLSE can firmly attach their support to. And one backed by MLSE, a team that has already provided a fantastic boon for CanM23, CanM20, TFC, and all the local GTA players coming through the ranks, which would be TFC II, which could use a higher competition level, and can enjoy the low attendance if needed, because its primary purpose is not to make a profit but to develop players for CanMNT, which is the exact same purpose that any other CPL club would have.

I don't see anything wrong with this scenario at all. The best of both worlds, in my humble opinion. We have to continue to keep expanding the pyramid at all levels, at a sustainable rate, of course.

[ironcub14]

Once again, if my post was too long, the quick short version is, why can we not aim for 2 CPL clubs in Toronto? We could easily welcome both TFC II as well as an independent Toronto club in the CPL.

At least have a read through my longer post before you argue against it, which I'm more than happy to listen to, cheers.

[-Hammer-]

Here is the story. MLS is not Canada's Division 1 league. It's the US's division 1 league. We just have teams playing in it. It's the exact same setup Wales has with the English Premier League, so stop calling MLS "OUR" division 1 league because it's not.

The top league in Wales is the Welsh Premier League, not the English Premier League. Wales just has some teams playing in the English Premier League.

Second, I fully expect the level of play to start around the NASL level and to improve over time, and hopefully if everything goes well, that level of play overtakes MLS's and Canada starts producing talent and national teams to rival and perhaps eclipse the US one day.

As far as what to do with the MLS teams? Leave them alone, let them run their own race in a US league and leave the door open if they ever want to join the CPL. If they want to loan players to CPL teams that's fine, if their ownership wants to run another independent club, that too is fine with so long as they are made to understand this is an independent club, your players don't trade, loan or touch any of your MLS affiliations and to expect harsh CSA fines for both clubs if you try to bypass this policy. Something to the effect of a rule stating "Owners who own more then one club are not permitted to sign players from the other squad, until the time duration of their contract has been completed,  even if that contract is terminated."

Basically, if you sign a CPL player for 3 years, release him halfway in year 1, the big league club can't sign him until the 2nd year is up. Then it's just a matter of having a minimum contract time set, I think 3 years should suffice. That should put a damper on player movement.

[Complete Homer]

17 hours ago, matty said:

Glitch

[Complete Homer]

^I could see some wiggle room around loans if it is a limited number of moves per season. Owners all over the world do this to a small extent. Saputo has seen players occasionally move between IMFC and Bologna, but I would hardly call IMFC their reserve side

Say a rule about "no more than 3 loan/recall transactions per season between any two teams". I think owners deserve to have some sort of synergy from establishing multiple clubs, but not to the extent that you could call them a farm team 

Overall though you are on point 

[ted]

30 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

^ Having reserve teams will torpedo the perception of the league.

100% agree with this. As soon as we have "reserve" teams interest from media, sponsors and new/casual fans will be diminished. It will reduce revenues from sponsors and ticket sales.  I would even go so far as to predict that should reserve teams be included the league will effectively be hamstrung out of the gate and unlikely to last three seasons.

 

15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

So La Liga loaning players to Eredivisie makes that league a division 2?

Now you are confusing things. Loaning individual players to a team does not make it a reserve team nor does a loan between individual clubs have anything to do with league status.

Loaning players from MLS teams to CanPL would be useful and appropriate and would not, IMO, have anything like the negative impact that full on reserve teams would.

 

[-Hammer-]

As far as the quota, I think starting at a quota of 4 Canadians must start and be on the field at all times, and your roster must be 35% Canadians. Then slowly bump up the quota every 10 years till you hit 7 Canadians and 50% of your roster.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, ted said:

Now you are confusing things. Loaning individual players to a team does not make it a reserve team nor does a loan between individual clubs have anything to do with league status.

Loaning players from MLS teams to CanPL would be useful and appropriate and would not, IMO, have anything like the negative impact that full on reserve teams would.

I know that. I was responding to the gentlemen who was implying that MLS loaning Canadian players to CPL would make CPL a D2 by default.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

As far as the quota, I think starting at a quota of 4 Canadians must start and be on the field at all times, and your roster must be 35% Canadians. Then slowly bump up the quota every 10 years till you hit 7 Canadians.

100% agree. Going for a 50% ratio from the get go would be terrible on the quality of play. 35% to 40% max is ideal considering the current pool of players available

[-Hammer-]

8 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

^I could see some wiggle room around loans if it is a limited number of moves per season. Owners all over the world do this to a small extent. Saputo has seen players occasionally move between IMFC and Bologna, but I would hardly call IMFC their reserve side

Say a rule about "no more than 3 loan/recall transactions per season between any two teams". I think owners deserve to have some sort of synergy from establishing multiple clubs, but not to the extent that you could call them a farm team 

Overall though you are on point 

Yeah, I think that's fair, basically limiting the amount of movement so they can't treat the PDL as their farm team.

[lazlo_80]

2 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

 

Would either of you guys be kind enough to give a quick 2-3 bullet point summary if you have the time? I was just talking to Steve on the V's FB group yesterday on the topic, and he definitely provides great insight, I have a lot of respect for his work on the Eddies.

The gist of it was that what's getting lost in all the back and forth is that sports, and more specifically this League is supposed to be fun and a good thing. Unfortunately as Canadian soccer fans we have a tendency to argue every last detail rather than enjoy the fact that this is an awesome and fun step forward for soccer in this country. Lets let ourselves get excited about traveling with our teams to play a rivalry in their backyard and all that good stuff.

[rob.notenboom]

16 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

The gist of it was that what's getting lost in all the back and forth is that sports, and more specifically this League is supposed to be fun and a good thing. Unfortunately as Canadian soccer fans we have a tendency to argue every last detail rather than enjoy the fact that this is an awesome and fun step forward for soccer in this country. Lets let ourselves get excited about traveling with our teams to play a rivalry in their backyard and all that good stuff.

Totally agree.