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ted

By ted
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GuillermoDelQuarto Newbie

GuillermoDelQuarto

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8 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

I dunno, why do Barca and Real Madrid not rely on the loan system? I know we're not England (or Spain, of course), but look at how rarely premier league teams develop their own talent, how rarely they loan out young English players who then play for their first teams. I mainly want to avoid that and ensure we develop players (and fans) in whatever the best system happens to be.

fair enough.  I suppose there is something to be said for having your prospects come up together as opposed to all being loaned out to different clubs.

 

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ironcub14 Newbie

ironcub14

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33 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

My feeling on the idea of MLS 2nd teams in CPL is very simple: it's fine (note: I said 'fine', not terrific, great, amazing, etc.), but not right away. I completely agree with you on how it works in the Spanish system, as it does act as a booster for development, and a similar idea has been shown to have success in Slovak hockey (they have a U20 national team playing in the league system in order to give the best prospects a chance to work together and to play in all situations, rather than sitting on the bench while the veterans get all the ice time).

However, as others have said, for this league to work it cannot appear to be a farm system. So the solution seems simple: get the league underway and build a fanbase, and then, a few years down the line (say, 5?) add TFC2 and whatnot, once the league is already established. 

In most respects I'd rather they weren't in the CPL, but it's three big markets with established teams and ownership, so adding their 2nd teams could be useful down the line. Just not yet. 

That's a quite sensible argument and I can definitely support that. I'm trying my best to be open-minded and flexible on how this CPL could look like in 2018, 2026, 2035, etc., and open to hearing all different types of ideas and timelines and etc. Cheers.

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Viruk42 Newbie

Viruk42

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Just now, MrSabiondo said:

JMHO

Personally it would be great that all professional soccer teams based in Ontario were allowed to have their reserve teams play in L10.  

I'm just looking to protect the status of our future CPL.

I get that, but I don't think it's an automatic MLS division 2 just because TFC2 etc are in there, in the same way that L1O isn't a farm system for MLS. If you're concerned about perceptions, I stand by my statement: If the CPL has a few years, establishes itself, and then expands to bring in TFC2 etc, that's fine (depending on rules of course - they can't do NHL/AHL style call-ups, for example, but instead fixing a roster at the start of the season and only exchanging players during transfer windows). If they do it right from day 1, then it's dumb and a mistake, and will certainly paint the league as a farm system.

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C2SKI Newbie

C2SKI

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I think having MLS organizations involved could be very important for the success of the league.They're in the biggest markets, they have the most experience, and they have the financial backing. They're ahead of everyone else by a fair margin. However, for all the reasons already mentioned, and due to the obvious harm it could do to the image of the league, they should never be allowed to call their participation in CPL a reserve or second team. Even if it's treated that way in certain aspects.

Roster movement between MLS teams and potential CPL counterparts would need to be strictly regulated, with completely different rules than they currently have with USL reserve teams. It sounds as if CPL could have some sort of salary cap like MLS. There shouldn't be any potential to bounce players between the two competitions, unless it's treated like loans between any other clubs.

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Complete Homer Newbie

Complete Homer

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29 minutes ago, MrSabiondo said:

I know it's easy to dismiss my comment as trolling, but the moment you have TFC suggesting a TFC II for the CPL then that's when CPL becomes division 2 to MLS' division 1.

 

Lots of people, including myself, saw that article as positioning themselves in mainstream media as the "real" D1, and CPL could maybe take the reserve team or worse, their U20 team (which is currently a mid table in Ontario's semi pro league). 

I have a hard time believing it is a legitimate interest to add TFC II, it is a PR move to appear supportive of local soccer while clearly enforcing the idea that CPL will be minor league. 

 

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GuillermoDelQuarto Newbie

GuillermoDelQuarto

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so... just keep MLS reserves in USL for now, once the CPL has legitimate support and people already view it as Div1A and there isn't the leg to stand on regarding it being viewed as a reserves league(10 yrs or so) then consider allowing them to move their 2nd squads into CPL.  But only once each team has a legitimate following and support.

We need this not to look like a feeder league, even if on some level it is.

I think we've beaten this horse to death though at this point.

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ted Mentor

ted

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44 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

So is L1O MLS' division 3? Or maybe division 4?

I don't think you understand how the system works and what we are saying. MLS doesn't have or make divisions. They are recognized by the CSA and USSF as a first division because they meet certain criteria.

When we talk about CanPL being a D2 if the MLS reserve teams enter that is more of a judgement on the relative positions of the potential league. You logically cannot be at the same level as your reserve team.

L1O is a D3 because they actually exist and the CSA says it is so through the OSA as they have delegated the provincial associations to regulate D3's in Canada. (The Canadian USL reserve teams teams get around this by operating under the umbrella of the MLS parent team.)

 

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Futballer Newbie

Futballer

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1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

From what the article says, it sounds very much like it was the other way around. And right now 'Group 2' as you call them is the one that the CSA has been talking about all along, is the one currently lining up investors from across the country, and is the one with an actual chance of forming a league, especially considering it is necessary for the CSA to sanction the league, something they are much more likely to do to a proposal that has their explicit support. 

Each group of investors Hamilton has contacted, we have been there and done that over the past (12) years many years, we have application from the Days of Kevan Pipe and the Early Days of  Victor Mont, Group 1 investors are Soccer People and Soccer Specialist in reviving Failed Leagues and has done so in several countries and was hired with that feat in mind as this is a major hurdle we face here in Canada. 

Just throwing money at the CPL will not be enough and we have the Group to solve the problems we have discovered. We have been at this a long time now and everyone you can think of has been contacted or met with us and has signed agreement of confidentiality.

We know what it takes and will make sure the CPL Can compete as the Top 3 North American Professional Soccer League.

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Complete Homer Newbie

Complete Homer

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4 minutes ago, Futballer said:

Each group of investors Hamilton has contacted, we have been there and done that over the past (12) years many years, we have application from the Days of Kevan Pipe and the Early Days of  Victor Mont, Group 1 investors are Soccer People and Soccer Specialist in reviving Failed Leagues and has done so in several countries and was hired with that feat in mind as this is a major hurdle we face here in Canada. 

Just throwing money at the CPL will not be enough and we have the Group to solve the problems we have discovered. We have been at this a long time now and everyone you can think of has been contacted or met with us and has signed agreement of confidentiality.

We know what it takes and will make sure the CPL Can compete as the Top 3 North American Professional Soccer League.

OK, so to be clear, you are with a  group, while the Hamilton/CSA group is the other competing group? Is that correct? 

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Futballer Newbie

Futballer

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18 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

OK, so to be clear, you are with a  group, while the Hamilton/CSA group is the other competing group? Is that correct? 

Correct they are  restructuring the Group 1 Business plan to make it Theirs as we submitted our Business plan to the CSA and Hamilton to Join us in Launching the CPL or C-League.

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Viruk42 Newbie

Viruk42

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7 minutes ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

A quick look at Wikipedia says Barcalona have 11 players on loan and Madrid have 7. 

And Chelsea has 38 players out on loan. The difference is that Barcelona has several Spanish players who have played for their reserve teams in the Segunda (including Busquets, D. Suarez, Iniesta, Sergi Roberto, and Jordi Masip), as does Real Madrid (Carvajal, Nacho, Vazquez, Morata), while the only English players who were part of Chelsea's youth setup and have played premier league games for them are Loftus-Cheek, and John Terry. Manchester United (Lingard and Rashford), Liverpool (Brannagan, Ojo, and Randall), Arsenal (Gibbs and Akpom), Tottenham (Kane, Onomah, Carroll, and Winks) also have relatively few/unheralded English youth team players that are still with the senior team, while Manchester City has none.

Does this guarantee that MLS reserves in the CPL will benefit Canada? No, of course not, but I wonder if it could. The pressure to win can sometimes override the desire to develop talent, as we've all seen at the youth levels (kick it up to the big kid!). Perhaps the same is true when they're 15-23?

 

26 minutes ago, ted said:

I don't think you understand how the system works and what we are saying. MLS doesn't have or make divisions. They are recognized by the CSA and USSF as a first division because they meet certain criteria.

When we talk about CanPL being a D2 if the MLS reserve teams enter that is more of a judgement on the relative positions of the potential league. You logically cannot be at the same level as your reserve team.

L1O is a D3 because they actually exist and the CSA says it is so through the OSA as they have delegated the provincial associations to regulate D3's in Canada. (The Canadian USL reserve teams teams get around this by operating under the umbrella of the MLS parent team.)

 

But they're not in the same country? MLS is an American league, the CPL is Canadian, ergo they can both be D1. If the MLS teams have their reserves in the CPL, they play in Canada's D1. The only time they would be in the same division is competing for the Voyageurs Cup, and I assume the reserve squads wouldn't be able to compete in that, the same way that Real Madrid Castilla and Barcelona B can't compete in the Copa Del Rey. 

So in other words, the only reason that TFC2 in CPL would make CPL a D2 is in terms of fan perception - hence why I'm saying you don't do it right away. If you wait a few years and CPL has established itself, then you *can* (not have to, not should, but *can*) do it as a way to expand the league into the three biggest markets. Is it a good idea? I don't know and have never claimed that it was. I've said I'm *fine* with it, but that also doesn't mean I like it, it just means I would tolerate it. 

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Complete Homer Newbie

Complete Homer

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2 minutes ago, Futballer said:

Correct they are  restructuring the Group 1 Business plan to make it Theirs as we submitted our Business plan to the CSA and Hamilton to Join us in Launching the CPL or C-League.

So the group led by Bob Young and Montagliani is still separate from your group? Or are you saying there has been some sort of reconciliation and there are ownership groups emerging from both? 

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Alex D Newbie

Alex D

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15 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Rollins tweeted that there is a Toronto investor is interested with a net worth in the billions. I asked if it was Goldhar, and he liked the post. 

Clearly Macabi Toronto is confirmed. Raise the banners, buy the kosher hotdogs, and get ready to party

Just curious, who is Goldhar?

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