Canadian Premier League

[rob.notenboom]

2 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

 

Would either of you guys be kind enough to give a quick 2-3 bullet point summary if you have the time? I was just talking to Steve on the V's FB group yesterday on the topic, and he definitely provides great insight, I have a lot of respect for his work on the Eddies.

I can't recall exactly what Steve said. But I know some of it is now in an article he just posted. 

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Would still love to see more details on this snippet from Steve Sandor:

http://the11.ca/reserve-teams-in-canpl-thanks-but-no-thanks/

During this process, there were actually two league proposals floating across the desks of various investors. In fact, two rival league proposals. The second one wasn’t one to be taken very seriously, but the aggressive nature of the person/people behind it actually hurt the real CanPL start-up.

[ironcub14]

1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

I can't recall exactly what Steve said. But I know some of it is now in an article he just posted.

Thanks for sharing the article, it's a well-written argument, and I don't know if he's repeated his arguments on other mediums before, but some of the article above definitely came out of the discussion we had yesterday on the FB group. I did reply to the points that he made on the FB group and repeated in the article, I'll just post a quick short version of it below. I totally understand that this is not a popular view whatsoever, and I'll drop it after today, as I wanted to raise some points for consideration, and I'm more than happy with the points I've raised, and also content with the fact that not many will agree. Besides, it's far more exciting to dream about an independent Toronto CPL side instead, that's one of the main purposes of this thread anyways.

I lived in Ottawa previously and follow the Fury as well. I'm providing my view on what I would like to see in the near future, which I completely understand is in the minority, and I can honestly say that if I was in Ottawa right now, I would very much welcome a CPL that had both Fury and TFC II in it. And that for me is because I've been following La Liga closely for many years and I really admired their development system from bottom to top, and felt that many of the things they do, including allowing B sides all the way up to the Segunda Division and/or a division below the senior side, is something we could borrow or replicate for the Canadian system. I don't speak for others, but for myself personally, I'm not making this argument because I think the minor league teams of MLS sides are "good enough" opponents for Ottawa, Calgary or Hamilton.

That being said, I completely hear Steven that the average sports fan in those cities would probably feel exactly how he just described, and that is just how it goes. To me, it sucks to hear that most fans don't consider the MLS reserve sides good enough for CPL, purely as a sporting concept, but I hear him and others that that is the will of the people. But to me, the primary purpose of CPL is still that sporting perspective, that we are aiming to grow club footy all throughout Canada, ultimately to continue to develop CanMNT.

 

[Gopherbashi]

I was giving some thought to the whole "how many teams can a city support?" discussion, and decided to look at how many pro sports teams there were in various countries.

Note that it's "pro sports teams", not "pro soccer teams".  If the UK can support 1 pro soccer team per million people, that's great, but they're also not competing with hockey, gridiron, baseball, and basketball the same way we are.

I looked at five countries (UK, France, Germany, Spain, and the USA) to get a rough estimate of what Canada as a country could support.  For the Europeans, I looked only at pro soccer, as I don't believe they have any other sports that compare to its popularity (besides maybe rugby in England).  For the USA, I looked at USA-only numbers for MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, MLS, and NASL (including upcoming expansion for everyone except NASL).

UK: 92 teams / 65 million people = 1.42 teams/million
Spain: 42 teams / 46 million people = 0.91 teams/million
France: 46 teams / 66 million people = 0.70 teams/million
Germany: 56 teams / 82 million people = 0.68 teams/million
USA: 145 teams / 324 million people = 0.45 teams/million

I was actually surprised at how close France & Germany were to each other, with Spain not being too far off either.  USA is low, but probably unsurprisingly so, considering 1) that you have to cap the size of your leagues at a certain point, and 2) MLS alone could probably expand by another 10 teams if it wanted.  England is just insane because their children are born with shin guards.

I wanted to look at Australia as well, but they've got something like 5 pro leagues all playing different styles of rugby that I couldn't make legitimate sense of it.  In fact, the 4th and 7th-ranked leagues in terms of average attendance *worldwide* are both in Australia.  Safe to say, if you're looking for evidence that a small country can't support a lot of pro teams, don't expect the Aussies to back you up on that.

It's also worth noting that - UK aside - there's a definite trend that smaller countries are supporting more pro teams per capita.  Australia (though numberless here) would certainly fit into that trend.

Canada currently has 23 pro sports teams (7 NHL + 9 CFL + 3 MLS + 2 NASL + 1 MLB + 1 NBA); at a population of 36 million, that gives 0.64 teams per 1,000,000 people.  Certainly higher than the Americans, somewhat lower than the European examples (but honestly not far off France and Germany).  At France & Germany's ratio around 0.70, we'd have 25 pro teams - 2 above what we currently have.  Using Spain's ratio - a country with only 10 million more people than us - we could support an additional 8 teams, bringing us to 33.  If we go even farther and assume (yes, assume) that the ratio increases with smaller countries, you could aim even higher.

[Kent]

 

26 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I can honestly say that if I was in Ottawa right now, I would very much welcome a CPL that had both Fury and TFC II in it. And that for me is because I've been following La Liga closely for many years and I really admired their development system from bottom to top, and felt that many of the things they do, including allowing B sides all the way up to the Segunda Division and/or a division below the senior side, is something we could borrow or replicate for the Canadian system.

I think the part that I bolded is the crux of the debate. You are likely in the crowd of people that consider CPL below MLS in the pyramid and would call it D2. People that are against the USL teams being considered in the league are putting a lot of value to the "P" in CPL. It's Premier. It's not called the Canadian Deuxième League.

[-Hammer-]

This might sound really strange, and it's really that serious of a post...but what if say the New York Cosmos suddenly found that NASL was cut out from under them (a team which is certainly withing long roadtrip distance for Hamilton, Ottawa and Toronto). It's dobutful they'd get an MLS franchise (with NYRB and NYC present) and wanted to join the CPL (since they seem to be wanting to spend far more then the USL). Wouldn't it be funny if this league grabbed an USSF team and enforced a must be US or Canadian domestic quota upon it. Granted we'd need the USSF's permission (and knowing how close they are to MLS, would likely frown at the idea) but just some food for thought.

I mention New York, because apart from Minnesota/Winnipeg there isn't an NASL team within reasonable driving distance to any of the rumored CPL markets.

[ironcub14]

1 minute ago, Kent said:

 

I think the part that I bolded is the crux of the debate. You are likely in the crowd of people that consider CPL below MLS in the pyramid and would call it D2. People that are against the USL teams being considered in the league are putting a lot of value to the "P" in CPL. It's Premier. It's not called the Canadian Deuxième League.

Haha good one. And I understand that.

The important part for me, though, is that the MLS sides will not be playing in the same division, that they will not be playing in CPL. As long as the B sides are not in the same division as the senior side, we should be hoping for the sake of development that all reserve sides, not just the MLS ones, but the NASL ones and the CPL ones as well, are playing in as high of a level as they realistically can. That's all.

I find CPL to be a fantastic sporting opportunity and am just trying to maximize it. But once again, I'm in the minority on that, and that's fine.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

This might sound really strange, and it's really that serious of a post...but what if say the New York Cosmos suddenly found that NASL was cut out from under them (a team which is certainly withing long roadtrip distance for Hamilton, Ottawa and Toronto). It's dobutful they'd get an MLS franchise (with NYRB and NYC present) and wanted to join the CPL (since they seem to be wanting to spend far more then the USL). Wouldn't it be funny if this league grabbed an USSF team and enforced a must be US or Canadian domestic quota upon it.

They would need USSF permission to do that and that's unlikely to happen. When the original CSL was in its death throes after the 1992 season I think there was a team in Chicago group that wanted to join, but it got blocked by the USSF. It has only been allowed at a lower regional level like Washington state teams in the PCSL and Buffalo entries into the old NSL in southern Ontario.

[-Hammer-]

4 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

They would need USSF permission to do that and that's unlikely to happen. When the original CSL was in its death throes after the 1992 season I think there was a team in Chicago group that wanted to join, but it got blocked by the USSF. It has only been allowed at a lower regional level like Washington state teams in the PCSL and Buffalo entries into the old NSL in southern Ontario.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. The USSF would probably say "Too bad, it's the USL or bust for you"

[Gopherbashi]

It's also interesting to see in Spain the discrepancy between city population and teams.  For example, Madrid's metro area has 5.3m people, and 6 teams (see: Toronto with 5.6m and 5 teams).  Barcelona at 4.3m has two teams (see: Montreal with 3.8m and 3 teams), but so does Oviedo (844k), Tarragona (325k), and Valencia (1.5m) - see Quebec City (765k/0t), Windsor (319k/0t), and Calgary (1.2m/2t).  Seville, at 1.26m, has 3 teams (see: Ottawa with 1.2m and 3 teams).

The largest metro area without a pro team is Cartagena, at 409k (see; St. Catharines/Niagara, at 392k and 0 teams unless you count the Sabres).

What's really interesting to me is the bottom of the table - there's seven teams in a metro area under 200k people, including four (Lugo, Huesca, Numancia, and Eibar) whose entire metro populations could fit inside Camp Nou.  It's that kind of thing that makes me wonder if a pro team could be a success in a smaller city with no competition (eg. Roughriders) if it's positioned right.

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

It's also interesting to see in Spain the discrepancy between city population and teams.  For example, Madrid's metro area has 5.3m people, and 6 teams (see: Toronto with 5.6m and 5 teams).  Barcelona at 4.3m has two teams (see: Montreal with 3.8m and 3 teams), but so does Oviedo (844k), Tarragona (325k), and Valencia (1.5m) - see Quebec City (765k/0t), Windsor (319k/0t), and Calgary (1.2m/2t).  Seville, at 1.26m, has 3 teams (see: Ottawa with 1.2m and 3 teams).

The largest metro area without a pro team is Cartagena, at 409k (see; St. Catharines/Niagara, at 392k and 0 teams unless you count the Sabres).

What's really interesting to me is the bottom of the table - there's seven teams in a metro area under 200k people, including four (Lugo, Huesca, Numancia, and Eibar) whose entire metro populations could fit inside Camp Nou.  It's that kind of thing that makes me wonder if a pro team could be a success in a smaller city with no competition (eg. Roughriders) if it's positioned right.

It's I actually why I suggested these teams in the other thread. Abbostford and Kelowna might actually be good draws.

2 hours ago, zen said:

To start:

• Victoria
• Calgary
• Edmonton
• Winnipeg
• Hamilton
• Toronto (ind)
• Ottawa
• Quebec City

Expansion: (in this order)

• Halifax
• Regina
• Vancouver (ind)
• St. John's
• Saskatoon
• KW
• Montreal (ind)
• London
• Kelowna
• Abbotsford

That would be a nice 18 team league, 34 games per season + playoffs. 

I left Moncton out because of the prospect of the billionaire owner in Toronto. Given that it will be some time before the league expands, it might give Halifax, and St. John's time to sort out a stadium. It would make more sense to target those markets.

Also, long term I think the league will need teams in the big markets. Hopefully by then there will be enough of a soccer culture to be able to support both the MLS and independent teams in all 3 cities.

Surrey is to Vancouver; what Mississauga is to Toronto. Although Mississauga has more employment

[Futballer]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Would still love to see more details on this snippet from Steve Sandor:

http://the11.ca/reserve-teams-in-canpl-thanks-but-no-thanks/

During this process, there were actually two league proposals floating across the desks of various investors. In fact, two rival league proposals. The second one wasn’t one to be taken very seriously, but the aggressive nature of the person/people behind it actually hurt the real CanPL start-up.

Let me give you some insight on the snippet from the sandman, he is correct on the fact that one project hurt the other, the Original Proposal from group 1 which was on the table before any one even thought of the idea, was off and on even prior to TFC getting the ok to MLS.

The project was then Introduced to the Hamilton Group whom pondered on it for a while as Hamilton was set on a NASL Franchise. Hamilton then responded to Group 1, with a similar project and plan.

This affected group 1 and it`s investors (2) from the UK (English 1st Division) whom was not impress with the Business actions of the Hamilton Group on a integrity level.

It can be verified by the CSA which group had the original plan tabled. Both groups are still making progress, the Hamilton Group 2 has the support of our Governing Body and Group 1 had the backing of  Concacaf  and international investors, This was prior to the Change in Office at Concacaf.  

[Gopherbashi]

15 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

This might sound really strange, and it's really that serious of a post...but what if say the New York Cosmos suddenly found that NASL was cut out from under them (a team which is certainly withing long roadtrip distance for Hamilton, Ottawa and Toronto). It's dobutful they'd get an MLS franchise (with NYRB and NYC present) and wanted to join the CPL (since they seem to be wanting to spend far more then the USL). Wouldn't it be funny if this league grabbed an USSF team and enforced a must be US or Canadian domestic quota upon it. Granted we'd need the USSF's permission (and knowing how close they are to MLS, would likely frown at the idea) but just some food for thought.

I mention New York, because apart from Minnesota/Winnipeg there isn't an NASL team within reasonable driving distance to any of the rumored CPL markets.

If they're going to drive the NASL to bankruptcy (again) because of their inflated budget, I'd really prefer for them not to take down a second (third?) league with the same philosophy.

Maybe the Cosmos are MLS's secret weapon after all.

[-Hammer-]

3 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

If they're going to drive the NASL to bankruptcy (again) because of their inflated budget, I'd really prefer for them not to take down a second (third?) league with the same philosophy.

Maybe the Cosmos are MLS's secret weapon after all.

That's true, although I blame that more on not setting strong enough cap rules.

[ironcub14]

1 minute ago, -Hammer- said:

That's true, although I blame that more on not setting strong enough cap rules.

I have to say, regarding NASL, I thought having a club that's known for its philosophy such as Rayo Vallecano, I thought it was really unnatural for them to try to create an off-shoot in OKC, of all the places in the world.

And the Ft. Lauderdale ownership, it's mainly led by a 30 year old kid who wanted to dress Ronaldo up for gamedays, it was never going to end in a bouquet of roses either.

NASL in general needs to do a far better job of vetting and holding its ownership groups to a certain standard, and I'm happy to hear that the CSA/CPL is doing just that.

[Gopherbashi]

4 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I have to say, regarding NASL, I thought having a club that's known for its philosophy such as Rayo Vallecano, I thought it was really unnatural for them to try to create an off-shoot in OKC, of all the places in the world.

And the Ft. Lauderdale ownership, it's mainly led by a 30 year old kid who wanted to dress Ronaldo up for gamedays, it was never going to end in a bouquet of roses either.

NASL in general needs to do a far better job of vetting and holding its ownership groups to a certain standard, and I'm happy to hear that the CSA/CPL is doing just that.

I'm certain the NASL is doing everything in its power to hold its ownership groups to certain standards.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), that standard seems to be having enough money to get through the rest of the season.

[Kent]

24 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I find CPL to be a fantastic sporting opportunity and am just trying to maximize it. But once again, I'm in the minority on that, and that's fine.

We all have our own opinions on the best or most feasible ways this league could happen, and that's fine. The important thing is that we all band together and support whatever the CPL ends up being like, rather than divide and be destructive if it's not what we envisioned (like I hear always happens in the grassroots levels of the game).

[ironcub14]

14 minutes ago, Kent said:

We all have our own opinions on the best or most feasible ways this league could happen, and that's fine. The important thing is that we all band together and support whatever the CPL ends up being like, rather than divide and be destructive if it's not what we envisioned (like I hear always happens in the grassroots levels of the game).

The CPL is going to be the friendliest league in the whole damn world.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

28 minutes ago, Kent said:

We all have our own opinions on the best or most feasible ways this league could happen, and that's fine. The important thing is that we all band together and support whatever the CPL ends up being like, rather than divide and be destructive if it's not what we envisioned (like I hear always happens in the grassroots levels of the game).

[Complete Homer]

59 minutes ago, Futballer said:

Let me give you some insight on the snippet from the sandman, he is correct on the fact that one project hurt the other, the Original Proposal from group 1 which was on the table before any one even thought of the idea, was off and on even prior to TFC getting the ok to MLS.

The project was then Introduced to the Hamilton Group whom pondered on it for a while as Hamilton was set on a NASL Franchise. Hamilton then responded to Group 1, with a similar project and plan.

This affected group 1 and it`s investors (2) from the UK (English 1st Division) whom was not impress with the Business actions of the Hamilton Group on a integrity level.

It can be verified by the CSA which group had the original plan tabled. Both groups are still making progress, the Hamilton Group 2 has the support of our Governing Body and Group 1 had the backing of  Concacaf  and international investors, This was prior to the Change in Office at Concacaf.  

Well that is terrifying. 

Care to share anything more? 

[shermanator]

59 minutes ago, Kent said:

We all have our own opinions on the best or most feasible ways this league could happen, and that's fine. The important thing is that we all band together and support whatever the CPL ends up being like, rather than divide and be destructive if it's not what we envisioned (like I hear always happens in the grassroots levels of the game).

Absolutely! I think it is in the best interest of all of us Voyageurs to support the league first and foremost, especially considering it won't be 100% perfect to anyone here.

As long as we do that, we can later focus on how certain teams are absolutely terrible on the pitch and will never win a CPL title. Looking at you, Roughriders FC.

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, Futballer said:

Let me give you some insight on the snippet from the sandman, he is correct on the fact that one project hurt the other, the Original Proposal from group 1 which was on the table before any one even thought of the idea, was off and on even prior to TFC getting the ok to MLS.

The project was then Introduced to the Hamilton Group whom pondered on it for a while as Hamilton was set on a NASL Franchise. Hamilton then responded to Group 1, with a similar project and plan.

This affected group 1 and it`s investors (2) from the UK (English 1st Division) whom was not impress with the Business actions of the Hamilton Group on a integrity level.

It can be verified by the CSA which group had the original plan tabled. Both groups are still making progress, the Hamilton Group 2 has the support of our Governing Body and Group 1 had the backing of  Concacaf  and international investors, This was prior to the Change in Office at Concacaf.  

From what the article says, it sounds very much like it was the other way around. And right now 'Group 2' as you call them is the one that the CSA has been talking about all along, is the one currently lining up investors from across the country, and is the one with an actual chance of forming a league, especially considering it is necessary for the CSA to sanction the league, something they are much more likely to do to a proposal that has their explicit support. 

[Viruk42]

2 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

I lived in Ottawa previously and follow the Fury as well. I'm providing my view on what I would like to see in the near future, which I completely understand is in the minority, and I can honestly say that if I was in Ottawa right now, I would very much welcome a CPL that had both Fury and TFC II in it. And that for me is because I've been following La Liga closely for many years and I really admired their development system from bottom to top, and felt that many of the things they do, including allowing B sides all the way up to the Segunda Division and/or a division below the senior side, is something we could borrow or replicate for the Canadian system. I don't speak for others, but for myself personally, I'm not making this argument because I think the minor league teams of MLS sides are "good enough" opponents for Ottawa, Calgary or Hamilton.

That being said, I completely hear Steven that the average sports fan in those cities would probably feel exactly how he just described, and that is just how it goes. To me, it sucks to hear that most fans don't consider the MLS reserve sides good enough for CPL, purely as a sporting concept, but I hear him and others that that is the will of the people. But to me, the primary purpose of CPL is still that sporting perspective, that we are aiming to grow club footy all throughout Canada, ultimately to continue to develop CanMNT.

 

My feeling on the idea of MLS 2nd teams in CPL is very simple: it's fine (note: I said 'fine', not terrific, great, amazing, etc.), but not right away. I completely agree with you on how it works in the Spanish system, as it does act as a booster for development, and a similar idea has been shown to have success in Slovak hockey (they have a U20 national team playing in the league system in order to give the best prospects a chance to work together and to play in all situations, rather than sitting on the bench while the veterans get all the ice time).

However, as others have said, for this league to work it cannot appear to be a farm system. So the solution seems simple: get the league underway and build a fanbase, and then, a few years down the line (say, 5?) add TFC2 and whatnot, once the league is already established. 

In most respects I'd rather they weren't in the CPL, but it's three big markets with established teams and ownership, so adding their 2nd teams could be useful down the line. Just not yet. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

6 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

My feeling on the idea of MLS 2nd teams in CPL is very simple: it's fine (note: I said 'fine', not terrific, great, amazing, etc.), but not right away. I completely agree with you on how it works in the Spanish system, as it does act as a booster for development, and a similar idea has been shown to have success in Slovak hockey (they have a U20 national team playing in the league system in order to give the best prospects a chance to work together and to play in all situations, rather than sitting on the bench while the veterans get all the ice time).

However, as others have said, for this league to work it cannot appear to be a farm system. So the solution seems simple: get the league underway and build a fanbase, and then, a few years down the line (say, 5?) add TFC2 and whatnot, once the league is already established. 

In most respects I'd rather they weren't in the CPL, but it's three big markets with established teams and ownership, so adding their 2nd teams could be useful down the line. Just not yet. 

This makes sense, but honestly, what is so bad about the loan system?

Does that not provide MLS teams with a good opportunity to develop their players?  They already have USL for their legitimate farm teams?

 

[Viruk42]

1 minute ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

This makes sense, but honestly, what is so bad about the loan system?

Does that not provide MLS teams with a good opportunity to develop their players?  They already have USL for their legitimate farm teams?

 

I dunno, why do Barca and Real Madrid not rely on the loan system? I know we're not England (or Spain, of course), but look at how rarely premier league teams develop their own talent, how rarely they loan out young English players who then play for their first teams. I mainly want to avoid that and ensure we develop players (and fans) in whatever the best system happens to be.