Lord Bob Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I did say it was his choice. You may want to read what I said not what you think I said. You may find that it helps. So why do the words "Camilo's agent" appear so often in a post about Camilo? It certainly looked to me like you were trying to slough some of the blame off onto the agent who "who knows how to deal with MLS effectively" and has "the brains to figure out the weakness in MLS contract options or the balls to try and exploit it" while questioning whether "Camilo's agent telling him and prospective teams that he is a free agent and putting his own career as an agent on the line means nothing?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Thought this was funny: this week Querétaro city hall paid off their standing debt to Scotiabank http://noticias.mexico.lainformacion.com/noticias/queretaro-paga-su-deuda-de-58-5-millones-con-scotiabank_uscGlWNdD9C8t9oGDQZW93/ These guys do business with Canadian companies I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 So why do the words "Camilo's agent" appear so often in a post about Camilo? It certainly looked to me like you were trying to slough some of the blame off onto the agent who "who knows how to deal with MLS effectively" and has "the brains to figure out the weakness in MLS contract options or the balls to try and exploit it" while questioning whether "Camilo's agent telling him and prospective teams that he is a free agent and putting his own career as an agent on the line means nothing?" Because in your original statement you said "Don't be surprised that something which had never happened before in MLS history happened? For ****'s sake, you can see that not every player in the universe is as much of a lying sleazebag as Camilo by the fact that he's the only MLS player who has ever pulled this ****." Just because nobody has ever challenged it doesn't mean it is fair, correct, FIFA compliant or enforceable. Just unchallenged. Yes he's the only one who ever tried this angle. Just like Bosman in his time, there is always a first. On to your next inquiry: "So why do the words "Camilo's agent" appear so often in a post about Camilo?" Who do you think he gets his advice from on these issues? His hair stylist? Seriously, who else is he going to listen to? Do you think that the player himself went and read up on the FIFA precedents and told his agent "hey let's try this"? As I said, in the end it was Camilo's choice. He makes the final decision and lives with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shamrock Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 There's lot's of examples of players trying this. Maybe not in MLS. Sometimes the options aren't as clear to begin with. Sometimes there's a deadline for the option to be lifted. Sometimes the club has told the player it would take the option but it wasn't on paper. It's legal stuff and people try to get out of contracts all the time. In football it's only ten times worse. Camilo himself is accountable for his action but of course his manager has played his role as well. A manager doesn't get money to keep a player were he is, the money is made with transfers. I hope the 7 figures are correct and then I still believe it's going to be hard for the Caps to use those 7 figures to get an equally talented kid. Man they even payed Miller 7 figures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 There's lot's of examples of players trying this. Maybe not in MLS. Which is all the difference because of MLS's unique structure and the fact that contract terms are collectively bargained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 That really doesn’t matter. Just because you bargained for something doesn’t mean it is legal or enforceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 That really doesn’t matter. Just because you bargained for something doesn’t mean it is legal or enforceable. If team options are illegal, in the sense of "unlawful in Canada and the United States", then it'll be interesting to see the legal ramifications for the NHL and Major League Baseball, among others. I am not a lawyer; perhaps you are. But collective bargaining might matter if we're dealing with it in the FIFA sense: when FIFA strikes down a unilateral option it's because it's unfair on the player, not because it's illegal. (This is why some unilateral options have been upheld). Collective bargaining is the process by which a league and its players determine what will be considered fair and what will not, contractually: it's the reason we have sports lockouts and strikes. Maybe this won't matter to FIFA, maybe it will, but it is a difference, something they don't deal with in Uruguay or Greece, and I don't think we can make a blanket "that really doesn't matter." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 That really doesn’t matter. Just because you bargained for something doesn’t mean it is legal or enforceable. I suspect that the MLS option year contracts are legal both in US/Canadian law and FIFA as well. No one has read either the full explanation of the cases in the book LB posted nor the legal documents or FIFA rulings. FIFA has upheld some option year contracts as well and the main example from the book where an option year was overturned sounded like it was a 2 year option imposed by a league on all contracts in that league. People are making wild assumptions from an excerpt with few details from a book no one has read. I don't think Camilo or his agent found a loophole at all. I think they just broke the contract and tried to force Vancouver's hand. And when a player does not want to play for a club there is not much a club can do other than try to get as much compensation for him as possible. I think the Caps management shares some blame because as crappy as this stuff is, it is how the football world works and they have to be able to deal properly with greedy players with big egos because they should not be in that line of work if they can't. It does not excuse Camilo from being a complete prick for doing this though. Players screw clubs all the time and clubs screw players all the time. Only the fans are true and loyal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 If team options are illegal, in the sense of "unlawful in Canada and the United States", then it'll be interesting to see the legal ramifications for the NHL and Major League Baseball, among others. I am not a lawyer; perhaps you are. But collective bargaining might matter if we're dealing with it in the FIFA sense: when FIFA strikes down a unilateral option it's because it's unfair on the player, not because it's illegal. (This is why some unilateral options have been upheld). Collective bargaining is the process by which a league and its players determine what will be considered fair and what will not, contractually: it's the reason we have sports lockouts and strikes. Maybe this won't matter to FIFA, maybe it will, but it is a difference, something they don't deal with in Uruguay or Greece, and I don't think we can make a blanket "that really doesn't matter." I am not concerned about FIFA law as much as I would be employment law here in North America. Teams have to be in compliance with both, and in the event of a conflict law within the country takes precedent. Despite what FIFA wants everyone to believe, they are not some quasi-sovereign entity that makes it's own rules and isn't subject to anyone else's authority. As far as the terms specifically, it's not a contract option but the multiple one-year options that would be the legal issue for the league. I am not a lawyer, but have enough exposure to employment law to know certain concepts take hold when courts sort out these issues. Courts generally uphold at least one of the following when it comes to employee-employer relations: a) the right to free movement of labor in one's profession reduced ease of moment in the short term in exchange for consideration (usually compensation). Through the multiple one year options, they cap upside to the player while limiting downside to the employer for a longer period of time. It's this type of asymmetry that courts have regularly voided from contracts. Non-compete agreements provide a great example of this. Most of these get thrown out, the ones that stand do so for only shorter periods of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shamrock Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Despite what FIFA wants everyone to believe, they are not some quasi-sovereign entity that makes it's own rules and isn't subject to anyone else's authority. Well, that's exactly what they are, emphasis on QUASI. They will actually ask an organizing country to suspend their laws if they are conflicting with FIFA regulations. They did it in South-Africa and will do it again in Brazil. But your post is excellent though, those series of one-year options seem very dodgy to say the least. Compared to other leagues, players in MLS seem very much tied-up and cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Well, that's exactly what they are, emphasis on QUASI. They will actually ask an organizing country to suspend their laws if they are conflicting with FIFA regulations. They did it in South-Africa and will do it again in Brazil. That's all about leverage though. They have some leverage leading up to a WC in Brazil or South Africa to do that. The amount of consideration the Amercian or Canadian Government would give them is absolutely nothing, especially in the area of employment law. I hate to quote it, because it's flawed in many ways, but soccernomics does a good job of explaining how small the business of soccer is compared to any major industry. FIFA acts like it's a big deal, it's really just a side-show circus compared to the real business going on in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdude Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Most of the players in MLS wouldn't try to challenge that because they have no place to go to get a better salary. Camilo could get something better in Mexico. If it's true that the Whitecaps didn't exercise their option on Camilo on time, (Which is 7 days after the last Whitecaps game.) then Camilo had the right to call himself a free agent. MLS clubs didn't really see that because most MLS players that have an option exercised wouldn't go anywhere. Actually, I don't blame Camilo at all looking at this. He showed flaws in MLS contracts and every MLS team will now know to exercise its options in the week following the last game of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Christian Dean, Andre Lewis & Mamadou Diouf. Dean is a GenA so he's a sure bet to take one spot. Andre is probably going to make it and take an international spot. Diouf is a 30th pick and a forward so I don't know about him. He's got his work cut out with all the forwards we have already. Finally something else to talk about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 ^ Diouf had a productive season in 12/13 with UConn, but lost his starting spot to Larin this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Narcotic Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 ^ Diouf had a productive season in 12/13 with UConn, but lost his starting spot to Larin this season. He was hurt most of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Camilo officially sold to Queretaro for a multi-million dollar fee. The multi-million portion is extremely good news for VWFC. I didn't think they'd get that much for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 In other news, sounds like Andre Lewis just signed with the Cosmos. Oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted January 17, 2014 Author Share Posted January 17, 2014 In other news, sounds like Andre Lewis just signed with the Cosmos. Oops. I'm getting really pissed off with MLS right about now. From what I hear he signed with Cosmos before the draft but MLS still left him on the board? WTF? We just wasted the 7th overall pick on someone who wasn't available? AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG. This year just keeps getting better and better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyJames Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I'm getting really pissed off with MLS right about now. From what I hear he signed with Cosmos before the draft but MLS still left him on the board? WTF? We just wasted the 7th overall pick on someone who wasn't available? AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG. This year just keeps getting better and better. http://www.goal.com/en-ca/news/4175/major-league-soccer/2014/01/17/4551561/first-round-mls-draft-pick-lewis-signs-with-cosmos Good job Whitecaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyJames Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 ....and even more http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/soccer/Vancouver+Whitecaps+draft+pick+Andre+Lewis+reportedly/9400995/story.html It feels good to support TFC all of sudden. Sounds like the Whitecap management team has a touch of the TFC flu. I am not poking fun and really I sympathize but starting to look like TFC of the last 7 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyJames Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 ....and even more http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/soccer/Vancouver+Whitecaps+draft+pick+Andre+Lewis+reportedly/9400995/story.html It feels good to support TFC all of sudden. Sounds like the Whitecap management team has a touch of the TFC flu. I am not poking fun and really I sympathize but starting to look like TFC of the last 7 years. PS: I want to see all Canadian teams succeed as I believe it will be better for the game in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Caps and NA press repeat multi-million dollar transfer, in Mexico they either say nothing, or come up with "just over a million" type stuff. It is normal for the buyer to say we got a steal, and for the seller to say we got a lot for the guy. Who to believe? Many Querétaro fans are embarrassed the team paid for MLS scrub, they really despise the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdude Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I'm getting really pissed off with MLS right about now. From what I hear he signed with Cosmos before the draft but MLS still left him on the board? WTF? We just wasted the 7th overall pick on someone who wasn't available? AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG. This year just keeps getting better and better. That's what happens in a draft, you draft the guy, but unless he has a contract with the league, you know that you could lose him to another club. He apparently had signed with MLS which will make the Lewis situation weird. Heck. Rob Friend and Olivier Occéan got drafted in MLS and never played a game for an MLS club. (Sure Friend will play this year, but you get my point.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shamrock Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Yes, most of the times it happens the other way around. The clubs drafts a player, let's him train and then get's rid of him unceremoniously after the preseason or sometimes a bit later. For the MLS-starter salary he was going to get paid in Van (assuming he'd even get a contract) he might as well go NYC were he'll probably get more playing time anyway. Good for him. All you can blame the Whitecaps is that they didn't draft an Adidas-kid at 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Sounds now like he is under contract with the league. Apparently he hired Camilo's agent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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