Vancouver Whitecaps 2014 Roster Thread

[VWFC]

[Grizzly]

Pfff, 80-90 % of transfers happen on the Bosman-clause anyway. Most clubs in the world don't have the cash to buy any sort of player. You guys only read about the big money transfers. Fact is only Premier League-sides (who get lot's of TV money) and German Bundesliga-clubs (who are virtually all financially sound) and 2 clubs in Spain can afford to buy practically any player. And even those clubs prefer geting players yound and cheap (raiding young prospects from all over the world for free).

And another thing. For a player, going on the Bosman-clause is always beter, because then he can get some signing money. Whereas if the club has to buy off his contract first, the player doesn't get any or reduced signing money. Lewandowski is going to Bayern for free, half a year ago they were willing to pay 25 mil to buy-off his contract. Now he'll prob get a beter salary and a nice some of cash to start with.

It never ceases to amaze me how much Americans and Canadians overestimate the strength of MLS. Or let me put it more gentle, overestimate the image of MLS. Yes there have been succesful transfers, but only few if you think about it. And even then they usually need a step in between (Netherlands, Championship, Second Bundesliga) before they can go to the big leagues.

22 goals in the US doesn't say al that much to a Premier League side.

Pfff, if you are going to educate us "Americans and Canadians" about how the transfer system works you should first educate yourself. Neither clubs, players or agents tend to do things that are not in their own best interests so if transfers are going through it is because each side thinks it is in their benefit to do a transfer instead of waiting to do a Bosman. Yes in an ideal world in which no other club was interested in a good player, each club that was interested in that player did not consider any alternative players, players did not have injuries or dips in form, clubs did not have immediate needs to fill, players were not impatient to move up the football ladder, etc., etc. then the transfer market might be like you portray it. Since those are not the case the current transfer market is in place in which players and clubs sometimes make deals that might not be as good as they could get in the free market because the free market is very risky and a deal might not go through at all and/or there is a high possibility that the final deal may also be worse than what they can get through transfer.

Additionally players often get either a percentage of the transfer fee or more often a significant signing bonus on a transfer. You seem to ignore the fact that a player needs to agree to a transfer too and will not do so if they could make far more money in 6 months or a year on a Bosman. As far as "You guys only read about the big money transfers." it actually appears to be you who is only reading about that. I follow lower division German and Russian soccer and transfers occur there all the time. The fact that many of them are not the big money transfers one sees on the news does not change that these are transfers just like the big ones. As to the percentage of players who switch clubs by transfer versus Bosman I do not know what the stats are though if the percentage you give is based on any statistical evidence you are welcome to post the source. However, as transfers do tend to deal with the most coveted and talented players at any given level and this is a minority of the players I do suspect Bosman transfers highly outnumber paid transfers.

No one is overestimating the strength of MLS, indeed it is usually underestimated. It is a 2nd tier league just like the 2nd Bundesliga and leagues like the Dutch or Belgian leagues minus their top 3 or 4 teams. It has, however, only reached that level recently which is one reason that the transfer history is less than in those leagues. It is also a lot easier to transfer within Europe so MLS will always be a second choice if a similar player in Europe and especially with a European passport is available. That being said any player that can score 22 goals in a season in MLS is going to be on the radar of a lot of good teams just like a player who did the same in Belgium would be. If said player could replicate that feat then he would be even more on the radar of such teams.

BTW, lose the attitude, there are a lot of knowledge soccer fans here and if you are going to try to educate us at least try to know what you are talking about because a lot of people here do know what they are talking about.

[Grizzly]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1005[/ATTACH]

This could be getting nasty.

[youllneverwalkalone]

MLS needs to step in here. This is a fundamental challenge to their basic contract and business model. Liga MX is direct competition. First thing I would do is contract Racist USA.

[shamrock]

I'm not trying to educate anyone here. Just being realistic. For the rest of your post, that's seems fair enough. I don't have exact figures but transfers occur in and between all leagues in the world, but most of the times without a fee. I didn't want to sound condescending, but when I hear someone hoping to get 3 / 4 mil for a player on a one year contract earning 250 k, that's just madness.

The way it looks now, Whitecaps can be happy if they get 0.5 or maybe a bit more for him. Cause you know how this will pann out, if the player really wants to leave he probably will. And then it's up to WC/ MLS to try and get some compensation for him. It's a shame though.

[VWFC]

I'm not trying to educate anyone here. Just being realistic. For the rest of your post, that's seems fair enough. I don't have exact figures but transfers occur in and between all leagues in the world, but most of the times without a fee. I didn't want to sound condescending, but when I hear someone hoping to get 3 / 4 mil for a player on a one year contract earning 250 k, that's just madness.

The way it looks now, Whitecaps can be happy if they get 0.5 or maybe a bit more for him. Cause you know how this will pann out, if the player really wants to leave he probably will. And then it's up to WC/ MLS to try and get some compensation for him. It's a shame though.

It wont be WC/MLS - this will turn into a FIFA issue. There's some precedent for FIFA to side with club and player, depending on what is in his MLS contract, but since the league is top secret we have no idea. Either way the chances of Camilo ever playing for the Caps again has got to be <10%.

[youllneverwalkalone]

All the Caps can really do is get the CSA to withhold the ITC. That could take up to 60 days to resolve, which may get the Mexican club to settle with MLS privately. Sure tough losing your golden boot winner to a rival league, regardless of the compensation.

[Keegan]

No chance I'd ever want this clown on Canada now. Pure mercenary who's morals off the pitch seem to match his diving little puke style on the pitch. Just imagine him faking an injury to stay with his club during a key world cup qualifier.

[A_Gagne]

Playing the kids is the mantra of every sports fan on ever team. The idea of the unknown is better than the known. In short if you were to play all the kids, you would have the worst team in the league.

... TFC?

[A_Gagne]

he way it looks now, Whitecaps can be happy if they get 0.5 or maybe a bit more for him.

I wonder what Aaron Nielsen from RNO would have to say about that number, since (I think) he's actually been involved in player valuations based on stats. If Brek Sheas when to Stoke for £2.5 million and Maurice Edu when to Rangers for £2.6 million without ever putting up Camilo numbers, my guess is 500K USD is a significant underestimate.

[A_Gagne]

It wont be WC/MLS - this will turn into a FIFA issue. There's some precedent for FIFA to side with club and player, depending on what is in his MLS contract, but since the league is top secret we have no idea. Either way the chances of Camilo ever playing for the Caps again has got to be <10%.

I agree, this seems reminiscent of the Philippe Mexès situation in 2004, where he signed for Roma despite still being under contract to Auxerre. In that instance Mexès was given a relatively inconsequential 6 week ban and Roma eventually settled with Auxerre for price of 7 million euros.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Mex%C3%A8s

My guess is something similar plays out here. Only difference in this case however, is that the MLS' single entity structure could actually work in the Whitecaps' favour. The MLS is worth north of 1/2 a billion dollars, and are the ones that actually own Camilo. If MLS ownership is united in perceiving (essentially) the theft of it's golden boat winner, as a very dangerous precedent, they can probably make life a lot more painful for Camilo, his agent and Querétaro, than Auxerre certainly was capable of doing with Roma over Mexès.

[A_Gagne]

Hypothesizing off the top of my head here, but if Camilo, his agent and Querétaro do find a way to challenge the legality of certain aspects of his MLS contract it could inadvertently result in changes to MLS' contract structures, which could bring it more in line with player contracts around the world. And I suspect many on this forum wouldn't be opposed to that. At the same time though, I think MLS would cut a deal long before that happened if they thought there was even a remote chance that Camilo could successfully expose a legal flaw in their player contracts... at which point they would have their own lawyers correct the flaw internally, without any substantive change (i.e. one that would result in greater player control over inter-/intra-league transfer and free-agency).

[Grizzly]

I'm not trying to educate anyone here. Just being realistic. For the rest of your post, that's seems fair enough. I don't have exact figures but transfers occur in and between all leagues in the world, but most of the times without a fee. I didn't want to sound condescending, but when I hear someone hoping to get 3 / 4 mil for a player on a one year contract earning 250 k, that's just madness.

The way it looks now, Whitecaps can be happy if they get 0.5 or maybe a bit more for him. Cause you know how this will pann out, if the player really wants to leave he probably will. And then it's up to WC/ MLS to try and get some compensation for him. It's a shame though.

I still think you are putting too much emphasis on the remaining length of the contract. That is a factor but it tends to be dependent on how much in demand a player is. If there is only one or two teams interested in a player than a contract with a short length will lower a transfer value because if the teams wait until he is free they can probably sign him then so they are merely putting the process forward. However, if there is a lot of demand for the player then the length of the contract is mostly irrelevant because the transfer is occurring because a team really wants that player and does not want to risk either losing that player to another team or getting into a bidding war with a number of teams.

The other factor I don't think you are considering enough is that it is the seller who determines the price not the buyer which is probably the key factor with Camilo. The seller needs to get a price that makes it worthwhile to sell or otherwise they will keep the player. It is possible that there is no buyer willing to pay what the seller needs to get but unless the buyer can pay what the player is worth to the seller then a transfer will not occur. While 3 to 4 million might be high, it is less ridiculous than the .5 million you are suggesting. In Camilo's case he was on a bargain contract for one more year and the Caps should have been trying to get him on a DP contract for next year or the following (it is not clear whether they were negotiating this or not). To sell him for anything less than 2 million would really not be worth it for the Caps since if he comes anywhere close to producing last year's numbers he would be worth that type of salary. Not to mention that potential lost transfer revenue is nevertheless not money that you have to give out, is not taxable and also does not count against the salary cap. Plus you do not have to give MLS its cut, another thing that reduces the value of a transfer to a team. So while we could debate whether Camilo is worth 2 million plus for a buying team, he is definitely worth that to the Caps even if for just one year so that would be the type of money it takes to transfer him.

On the face of it and without knowing the details of his MLS contract and its legal validity (MLS contracts do seem a bit unfair to the players), it seems like this is a really dickish greedy move on the part of Camilo. The Caps, MLS, CSA really have to do a good job of fighting this legally and bringing it to CONCACAF and FIFA for sanctions. Teams do often lose out in such cases even if they legally win because you can force a player to play for you but you can't force him to play well. Even if the player is sanctioned you lose out on his services and a chance to negotiate a new contract with him. However, unless there is a strong case against the contract, the Caps are not in that bad of a position if they play their cards right. FIFA and UEFA have come down hard on clubs and players before who have broken contracts and the threat of having this happen could actually force Querétaro to overpay for him. However, the weak point in this is that we are not dealing with UEFA but rather the corrupt and ineffectual CONCACAF. Probably in the end the Caps will lose out in this and have been really screwed by Camilo on this but they really need to try to play hardball with both him and Querétaro and try to screw both of them back as hard and brutally as they can and try to get as much money out of them as possible and if not make sure they get a moral victory and make them pay the price for doing what they have done. And if the Romanian FA can get away with screwing Ricketts and withholding his international transfer for so long when his club was in breach of contract and had not paid him in months, the CSA surely should be able to stop Camilo from playing entirely unless a satisfactory solution is found.

But in all likelihood we can forget about Camilo ever playing for the Caps again or for Canada in the future. As much as we need his skill, maybe that is a good thing given the type of character he has shown in this.

[Grizzly]

I agree, this seems reminiscent of the Philippe Mexès situation in 2004, where he signed for Roma despite still being under contract to Auxerre. In that instance Mexès was given a relatively inconsequential 6 week ban and Roma eventually settled with Auxerre for price of 7 million euros.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Mex%C3%A8s

My guess is something similar plays out here. Only difference in this case however, is that the MLS' single entity structure could actually work in the Whitecaps' favour. The MLS is worth north of 1/2 a billion dollars, and are the ones that actually own Camilo. If MLS ownership is united in perceiving (essentially) the theft of it's golden boat winner, as a very dangerous precedent, they can probably make life a lot more painful for Camilo, his agent and Querétaro, than Auxerre certainly was capable of doing with Roma over Mexès.

Don't forget though that Roma also received a one year transfer ban although they later got it reduced to only one transfer period. Many of teams doing this face transfer bans although they have often got them reduced by going to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. However, in the most recent example, FC Nantes was found guilty of signing Ismaël Bangoura while he was under contract to a team in Dubai. Bangoura received a 4 month suspension, Nantes and Bangoura have to pay the team 4.5 million Euro and Nantes has a transfer ban in place for one year. The decision has been upheld upon appeal. This is particularly hard on Nantes since they promoted this year and have to play in Ligue 1 with their Ligue 2 team.

[A_Gagne]

Don't forget though that Roma also received a one year transfer ban although they later got it reduced to only one transfer period. Many of teams doing this face transfer bans although they have often got them reduced by going to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Right, forgot about the team transfer ban. Good memory. I agree with your point above that MLS needs to come down as hard as possible on Camilo, his agent and Querétaro, as well as the fact that with a picture of him in Querétaro colours in twitter, this is clearly not a negotiation ploy for a better deal with the Caps and Camilo is as good as gone.

[Lord Bob]

MLS needs to step in here. This is a fundamental challenge to their basic contract and business model. Liga MX is direct competition. First thing I would do is contract Racist USA.

Liga MX isn't a single-entity league so contracting the Goat****ers wouldn't really be a blow to Querétaro.

Anyway, this isn't really analogous to the Mexès situation: he was still under the initial term of his contract rather than a team option. There have been a fair few team options struck down by FIFA/the CAS, on the grounds that they are an unreasonable restriction of the player without consummate reward. The "Bueno-Rodríguez case" saw two players given free agency from Peñarol even though the club picked up their two-year option; Peñarol received no compensation.

Not to toot my own horn but I did write a post on my blog looking at this in brief.

[tmcmurph]

So MLS will have to re-write ALL their contracts if FIFA rules in Queretaro's favour. If a single agent can out think MLS and all their lawyers then boy does MLS look bad. I mean stepping on dog pooh, slipping on it, falling on it, rolling over in it, kind of bad.

I am so choked over this. Not at Camilo. It is hard to see how anyone could hate a player who has played that great for us but haters will be haters. I don't fault the Caps management on this one as they really believed that they had the player locked up and according to MLS they do. I do think being a lot more proactive with your star player and human highlight reel would have been a smart thing but they probably didn't see the urgency.

So much for my dream of Camilo in the MNT if the ruling from FIFA goes against MLS. This just totally sucks. I need beer and lots of it.

[Grizzly]

Liga MX isn't a single-entity league so contracting the Goat****ers wouldn't really be a blow to Querétaro.

Anyway, this isn't really analogous to the Mexès situation: he was still under the initial term of his contract rather than a team option. There have been a fair few team options struck down by FIFA/the CAS, on the grounds that they are an unreasonable restriction of the player without consummate reward. The "Bueno-Rodríguez case" saw two players given free agency from Peñarol even though the club picked up their two-year option; Peñarol received no compensation.

Not to toot my own horn but I did write a post on my blog looking at this in brief.

Good read and it will be interesting. The way I am reading the explanation of the Bueno-Rodríguez case it sounds like the Uruguayan league had a blanket team option clause which would make the case not so similar to the Camilo one. I can see why FIFA would outlaw league wide automatic options but I don't know why they would not rule individually negotiated options were valid. At the very least given that the CSA still holds the international certificate for Camilo, one would think they might be able to hinder him playing until the legal stuff plays out.

[El Hombre]

I am so choked over this. Not at Camilo. It is hard to see how anyone could hate a player who has played that great for us but haters will be haters.

That is some next level zen shit if you can't feel a little bit of scorn for a player who ups and leaves the team like this. I have more respect for someone who demands a transfer because then the team gets something in return.

[A_Gagne]

Anyway, this isn't really analogous to the Mexès situation: he was still under the initial term of his contract rather than a team option. There have been a fair few team options struck down by FIFA/the CAS, on the grounds that they are an unreasonable restriction of the player without consummate reward. The "Bueno-Rodríguez case" saw two players given free agency from Peñarol even though the club picked up their two-year option; Peñarol received no compensation.

Interesting... good to know. Like I stated in a previous post, I think if the MLS thinks they are at risk of having their whole system of "options" and "drafts" that prevent actual free agency challenged successfully, they will probably hold their noses and cut a deal before it ever goes to court.

This whole things looking pretty ****ing messy all round.

[tmcmurph]

That is some next level zen shit if you can't feel a little bit of scorn for a player who ups and leaves the team like this. I have more respect for someone who demands a transfer because then the team gets something in return.

You have an agent that you pay big dollars to. Why would you not listen to his advice? You are a free agent because the options exercised by the team didn't give you a raise (one of FIFA's reasons to invalidate an option). Only if the MLS option clause explicitly states that you are being paid a certain amount to give up your right to refuse the team's exercising the option (I don't know if that is in there) would you not be a free agent.

So your highly paid agent tells you that you are a free agent and the option is unilateral and has FIFA precedents going against it and your current team is offering you the same salary but another team wants to pay you 4 times as much. This is the players fault?

If this is the way it shakes out (no Camilo, no comp) my scorn is reserved for MLS and their lawyers who rightly deserve it.

I really hope FIFA rules in favour of MLS and we get him back but after reading the precedents on Lord Bob's blog I'm thinking we are screwed. I don't blame the front office or the free agent. I blame the contract holder who reviews and approves all player contracts. They have a crack the size of the grand canyon and they didn't see it.

[nolando]

ICYMI: http://www.soccerbyives.net/2014/01/camilo-closer-queretaro.html

[shamrock]

SI do think being a lot more proactive with your star player and human highlight reel would have been a smart thing but they probably didn't see the urgency.

That's so true. And I also aggree with Grizz that no matter what you get for him, it will probably not be enough to buy the same amount of talent back. Caps should told have offered him a DP contract right after (or even during) the season.

But Grizzly, you talk about interest from various team that can push the price. While I obvioulsy see your point, do you think there actually was a lot of interest in this case? He's going to a lower or at best mid-table club of a secondary league. I can't imagine Queretarro FC being one of Camilo's dreamclubs, my guess is there wasn't a whole lot of options (outside MLS where he's obviously has made a name for himself). We'll see how it will pan out, but I don't think Whitecaps will be considered the winners after everything is dealt with.

[Grizzly]

That's so true. And I also aggree with Grizz that no matter what you get for him, it will probably not be enough to buy the same amount of talent back. Caps should told have offered him a DP contract right after (or even during) the season.

But Grizzly, you talk about interest from various team that can push the price. While I obvioulsy see your point, do you think there actually was a lot of interest in this case? He's going to a lower or at best mid-table club of a secondary league. I can't imagine Queretarro FC being one of Camilo's dreamclubs, my guess is there wasn't a whole lot of options (outside MLS where he's obviously has made a name for himself). We'll see how it will pan out, but I don't think Whitecaps will be considered the winners after everything is dealt with.

I think there were a lot of teams tracking him after this season but not a lot willing to make a serious offer. And most of the teams who might have been willing to make him a good offer would have assumed they needed to pay a tranfer fee for him and would not take the risk of signing him like Querétaro did. Camilo had a good first season, a bad 2nd season and a great 3rd season with the Caps. He put himself on a lot of club's watch lists this year but is probably one more year of performing like last year away from getting serious offers from a number of attractive clubs. That may happen next year if he is able to duplicate his goal scoring in the Mexican league. Nevertheless, the Mexican teams do pay pretty well and while Querétaro is undoubtedly not his dream club to play for they are probably offering him his dream salary.

It is quite possible that the Caps management looked at the situation and decided that it was not likely they would get a high enough transfer fee and that the interest of most clubs in him right now was wait and see and thought they could wait and see themselves. Obviously they did not anticipate he and his agent and another club challenging/breaking the contract. I suspect the plan was to wait and see how he plays the start of this season and if he plays well try to negotiate a DP contract for the following season. Thus, they would save having to pay him as a DP this year and would have some confirmation that he can consistently perform like he did last year.

[jpg75]

Querataro are the right mix of ambition and bush league professionalism to make a move like signing a player already under contract. I'm sure a number of other Mexican teams would sign him to a fat contract on a free transfer as well, but none of them crazy/stupid enough to pull this stunt.