2013 Vancouver Whitecaps Roster Dance

[maccaliam]

What has everyone seen to say Alderson progressed under Rennie (Adekugbe, Fisk and Clarke fit similarly in here)? I don't follow the whitecaps as closely as many of you do, so perhaps I've missed something.

[madmonte]

For Alderson, he smartly loaned him out to get playing time to the USL-Pro. Which was probably a good move, but it's tough to say considering. You can't measure the progress of someone that well who spent basically the entire season out with injury. But attempting to move players into loan situations is something Caps fans were asking for last season for players that weren't going to be seeing any or much playing time, and Rennie delivered on some of them.

[VWFC]

It's difficult to read some of this stuff. The Caps have said it multiple times - development was one on Rennie's biggest downfalls and one of the reasons he wasn't renewed. If you don't trust the Caps or me maybe reading other people's posts can bring you around.

For some of the people listed above - Mitchell is 26, so not sure how you count that as development? Not playing Teibert in 2012 was a mistake and Rennie admitted as much, Alderson hasnt played a minute in MLS or the CC, there is strong evidence that Manneh should have played more in 2013, Adekugbe only signed in Sept and it took a suspension and being officially out of the playoffs for him to get minutes, Rennie was criticized by Reo-Coker for not having the best U-18's training with the first team, which at the time included Adekugbe.

Rennie hasnt shown an ability to invest in youth and integrate them into his 1st team. Hell, he was so conservative that most games he only used 1 or 2 subs, which was a wasted opportunity to get players minutes. He took a win at all cost mentality and didnt win. So he's gone.

It doesn't mean he treated them poorly or didnt do anything good, but his record of integrating the kids speaks for itself.

[Dub Narcotic]

This is what frustrated me about Rennie so much. He had Bryce Alderson sitting right there all the time and did not play him. Sure, some of the Canada-haters and Garber-lovers will point out that Alderson was too injured to play for most of the season and didn't even start on his division three team when he was healthy but that's the kind of bull**** thinking that is killing our national team. Same with Adekugbe, why can't MLS get with the rest of the world and start their 17 year old youth team players in critical late season matches? Rennie, don't get me started....

[Unnamed Trialist]

I like to think over the last 2 season we progressed under Rennie.

I was willing to give him another year at the helm if it came to it, with optimism.

For me Rennie's biggest downfall was not 'development' because Manneh, Teibert, Alderson, Mitchell, Adekugbe all progressed positively. I would say Knighton as well he is a young goalie who I believe will catch on in NER be a solid starting goalie in the MLS.

As for the exceptions Mattocks and Clarke I think that was the players at fault, in ego's getting in the way. And at that age and their situation they should have no ego as they have done nothing so far to warrant any special treatment.

Now where I think Rennie failed is the in-game management and gameday lineup. I agree he was too cautious in putting out the aforementioned young players. and mishandling players in general on-the-field, bad substitutions players playing out of proffered positions. He constantly tried to fit square pegs into round holes during the 90 minutes.

That was his Achilles heel.

But to say he completely ignored the youth is a be naive. He did manage to find the best in 2 maybe 3 young players who might play integral roles moving forward in Teibert, Mitchell and Manneh

Compared to what we have now, Rennie continuing was a preferable scenario. Face it, he was close, Caps were close. This season was better than last, more solid. Better players and better play. Nothing spectacular, sometimes boring, and a few errors in retrospect (if it ain't broke don't fix it speaking goalkeepers).

I would have given him another year, he got better, and I bet we would have make playoffs next year with him.

[ThiKu]

Robinson will do fine. Salgado will flourish, amongst others. Expect Fisk to get a contract soon!

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Camilo rumored to Liga MX

[maccaliam]

Interesting read: http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?5165-Why-Everything-Rennie-Must-Go-Well-Almost-Everything

"With great young talent like Caleb Clarke, Bryce Alderson, Ben Fisk (who is still without a contract for some reason), Sam Adekugbe, Jackson Farmer and Marco Bustos we need a coach they can relate to and motivate these young talents.

Rennie wasn't giving any of these players any quality minutes on the first team and choosing to go with foreign talent instead of promoting to the MLS roster from within. A few got minutes in Reserve or PDL games but that was it."

[tmcmurph]

Interesting read: http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?5165-Why-Everything-Rennie-Must-Go-Well-Almost-Everything

"With great young talent like Caleb Clarke, Bryce Alderson, Ben Fisk (who is still without a contract for some reason), Sam Adekugbe, Jackson Farmer and Marco Bustos we need a coach they can relate to and motivate these young talents.

Rennie wasn't giving any of these players any quality minutes on the first team and choosing to go with foreign talent instead of promoting to the MLS roster from within. A few got minutes in Reserve or PDL games but that was it."

We'll see at the end of next season how much time they get and if they contribute or make it clear they need more development. The forwards have their work cut out for them as Camilo and Miller will be the 2 main ones then they will have to compete with Salgado, Mattocks & Manneh once Miller leaves in June. Manneh can also play very effectively on the wing.

As an assistant it is easy to be popular with the players. We'll see how Robbo and the players handle his transition to head coach. I think Sam and Russell will get some minutes. Not so sure about the rest. The competition is tough.

[shamrock]

Yeah that's true, you can talk about giving chances all you want, but in the end of the day the players have to show it themselves. I didn't hear Teibert complaining about a lack of playing time, because he was good enough.

Having said that, I do think it would be a good idea for all the Canadian MLS-teams, if they would just use own talents instead of the sometimes bizarre kind of fringe players they attract. We've seen plenty of examples where one could say, is that guy really better than (fill in domestic players name)?

[Dub Narcotic]

Yeah that's true, you can talk about giving chances all you want, but in the end of the day the players have to show it themselves. I didn't hear Teibert complaining about a lack of playing time, because he was good enough.

Having said that, I do think it would be a good idea for all the Canadian MLS-teams, if they would just use own talents instead of the sometimes bizarre kind of fringe players they attract. We've seen plenty of examples where one could say, is that guy really better than (fill in domestic players name)?

Have we? Looking at the three Canadian teams this year I can't see a single case where a 'marginal' player was playing over a clearly better Canadian prospect. Perhaps I'm jaded from following Toronto FC from its inception.

[Blackdude]

Have we? Looking at the three Canadian teams this year I can't see a single case where a 'marginal' player was playing over a clearly better Canadian prospect. Perhaps I'm jaded from following Toronto FC from its inception.

I would agree with DN. I think that we like any other fans overrate our players. It's not like Alderson or Clarke would start for the Whitecaps. And even looking at Montreal, it's not like playing Tissot, Ouimette or Lefèvre on the backline would have improved the team. Evan Bush is still much superior to Maxim Crépeau. Messoudi's not ready to play on this team.

And in Toronto, sure sometimes Morgan or Henry got pulled sometimes, but that's pro football. You just have to keep your head up and they'll reward the players. Morgan and Henry are prime exemples. Outside of some good set pieces here and there, I haven't seen a lot of Kyle Bekker saying me that he deserves to start for TFC. He was a bench player and that was a fair assessment about his quality. He'll play more next year because he has grown a lot as a player and was a much more effective player by the end of the year.

Our players are just not good enough.

[ag futbol]

Our players are just not good enough.

Here’s the thing: in general, North American teams have not been good at developing and integrating prospects. So it's not just a matter of the players, it's a matter of what the coaches capabilities are.

5-10 years ago, Russell Tiebert would have never seen the field.

[snake]

Papa bouba diop would be a great replacement for yp lee.

[nolando]

Here’s the thing: in general, North American teams have not been good at developing and integrating prospects. So it's not just a matter of the players, it's a matter of what the coaches capabilities are.

5-10 years ago, Russell Tiebert would have never seen the field.

Here's the thing - ten years ago the Vancouver franchise was made up of mostly Canadians (nany of whom were brought in as young prospects from the surrounding area) and was at least as good as half of the MLS sides at the time.

[tmcmurph]

Here's the thing - ten years ago the Vancouver franchise was made up of mostly Canadians (nany of whom were brought in as young prospects from the surrounding area) and was at least as good as half of the MLS sides at the time.

Here's the thing (just to keep the theme going) - ten years ago (2003-4) the MLS sucked bad for quality, was fighting USL for D1 top dawg status, was deciding if they were going to give up the whole thing (thankfully decided to double down) and didn't have any academies. USL vs MLS in 2003 was very close. I'd bet most of the players on the 2003 teams in MLS wouldn't get off the bench today.

[Lord Bob]

Have we? Looking at the three Canadian teams this year I can't see a single case where a 'marginal' player was playing over a clearly better Canadian prospect. Perhaps I'm jaded from following Toronto FC from its inception.

Harvey over Adekugbe, Hertzog over Clarke, arguably Davidson over Alderson.

[VWFC]

I'll say it again, its not about a player being better today than the fringe American player. Its about evaluating the talent and deciding if the player is worth the investment and how to manage the playing time to help them reach there potential.

Will Sam be better than Jordan Harvey? Yes. How can we get Sam playing time to help him reach his potential? Canadian championship games, reserves, play Sam in games where he has a chance of success - ie when a team comes to town on the end of a road trip, have just played on the Wednesday, have injuries, have a poor right mid/wing, play him with a very strong Caps lineup. etc etc.

Blackdude said its not like Alderson and Clarke could start for the Caps, which is true, but misses the point. The questions is should Clarke be subbing in ahead of the likes of Hertzog? Should Clarke be starting reserve games ahead of Hertzog? Which is another thing Rennie royally messed up. I can't count the amount of times I yelled at my computer screen when I saw the team sheets for a reserve games. Guys like Etienne Barbarra, Floyd Franks, Hertzog, etc starting and Clarke, Alderson and the others on the bench. This does nothing for the development of the kids or the team for that matter.

[VWFC]

Harvey over Adekugbe, Hertzog over Clarke, arguably Davidson over Alderson.

2012 - A lot of people over Teibert

[ag futbol]

Here's the thing - ten years ago the Vancouver franchise was made up of mostly Canadians (nany of whom were brought in as young prospects from the surrounding area) and was at least as good as half of the MLS sides at the time.

Point was MLS coaches at the time weren't giving Tiebert like players a chance, even of they were capable. I'm not trying to discuss USL vs MLS 10 years in the past.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

An immobile dm nicknamed the "the wardrobe" at West Ham as a fullback in MLS?

[Dub Narcotic]

Harvey over Adekugbe, Hertzog over Clarke, arguably Davidson over Alderson.

Alderson was hurt, then on loan for most of the year! Clarke was on loan (and is not even in the conversation as a starter for Vancouver)! Those two weren't even available for selection. Adekugbe, maybe, we'll see next year. So, we have .5 young Canadian players who maybe should have played more games last year, not exactly an anti-Canadian coaching apocalypse.

There *were* two new residency-bred Canadian youth prospects who got multiple appearances last year: Maxim Tissot and Karl Ouimette. They both struggled badly and got benched for extended periods. I don't see how this was better for either Montreal or the Canadian defenders than how Caleb Clarke was handled.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Harvey over Adekugbe, Hertzog over Clarke, arguably Davidson over Alderson.

I think all three of those cases are iffy.

As much as I have like to use Harvey as a whipping boy, he played well this year and deserved to be our starting LB, but I agree Adekugbe deserved more than the final match, maybe he could of overtaken Harvey with more time on the pitch, but that's conjecture and speculation. Bottom line Adekugbe deserved more playing time, but should he of been outright starting over Harvey: that is tough to say.

As for the Hertzog one? Come on, Hertzog barely played himself. Clarke's situation was complicated from what I have read and heard, clashing of egos and some outside parental influence.

and Davidson over Alderson is the same as Harvey nearly identical. Davidson was pitiful going forward, but I'll give him credit he cleans up defensively adequately. Though I don't see Alderson being the guy I would of put there instead anyways. Coker should of been CDM, Teibert and Koffie centrally in the diamond with Kobayashi up top behind Miller and Camilo, but that's all hindsight now.

We need to face it there was only one Canadian worth starting game in and out and that was Teibert. I would say Adekugbe deserved a couple more starts and some time coming off the bench once Rochat was out the door. As for Alderson he was hurt and went on loan as did Clarke.

Robbo has been vocal that the young kids will get their chances to compete for spots. If they earn the playing I believe a couple will stick into the final XVIII and possibly XI.

[Lord Bob]

Alderson was hurt, then on loan for most of the year! Clarke was on loan (and is not even in the conversation as a starter for Vancouver)! Those two weren't even available for selection.

The Whitecaps loaned them out because they weren't going to play them. If Rennie wanted to play them, they would have remained. Loans aren't just natural disasters! "****! Ben Fisk went on loan to Charleston! I hate it when that happens. Oh well, better give Erik Hurtado some more ****ing minutes."

[Grizzly]

There *were* two new residency-bred Canadian youth prospects who got multiple appearances last year: Maxim Tissot and Karl Ouimette. They both struggled badly and got benched for extended periods. I don't see how this was better for either Montreal or the Canadian defenders than how Caleb Clarke was handled.

This is absolutely untrue. Both players had a few strong games and a few weak games as could be expected with young, inexperienced players. Nevertheless they both showed a lot of promise and while probably not ready to be starters yet should get more consistent playing time next year. Neither was benched at any point during the year, they were backup players waiting for a hole to open up to have an opportunity. Each of them scored a crucial goal at year end without which we would not have made the playoffs. Each also played midfield as well as defence which in my opinion suits Tissot better and might even be better for Ouimette. They may have not been better than the journeyman American players we are talking about in this thread but they certainly were not worse and have a lot more potential.