2013 Vancouver Whitecaps Roster Dance

[VWFC]

Not to mention Rennie improved the team 2 years in a row. First one was around a 50% increase in points and the second with a 10% increase. To replace him with the assistant is a bit of a joke. As to the criteria of success there is only one that matters. For all the bleating that the Duze does about this, that and the other it is quite simple; MAKE THE MLS PLAYOFFS and all other deficiencies will be forgiven. Fail to make the MLS playoffs and your days are numbered even if you improve the team.

If Robo does get it I hope they don't mess their pants at the first downturn. he is a good quality coach (IMHO) but less experience than any of the others so they must not be able to attract anyone at the level they initially wanted. The fact that they interviewed Preki does not bode well. I want nothing to do with him. I'm still holding out hope for GBS

Good hire. Wasn't keen on Bradley, so pleased he didn't take the job. Robbo brings the highest level playing experience, which MR and TT don't have. We know he's well respected by the players already and he's going to be much better at bringing through the youth and that's good news as far as the CMNT is concerned.

The whole process will sour some Caps fans, but for the non-Caps fans who only care about the CMNT, this is 100% positive.

[tmcmurph]

Good hire. Wasn't keen on Bradley, so pleased he didn't take the job. Robbo brings the highest level playing experience, which MR and TT don't have. We know he's well respected by the players already and he's going to be much better at bringing through the youth and that's good news as far as the CMNT is concerned.

The whole process will sour some Caps fans, but for the non-Caps fans who only care about the CMNT, this is 100% positive.

I don't think you will see large numbers of academy players suddenly start on the first 11. Robo will have immense pressure to get wins in MLS. Most of the academy players aren't ready or are just now getting there. Just making the game day 18 is a huge jump.

It is a long process and most don't make the final jump. A lot have gone to university and won't be back for a few years. If one academy player a year makes it to the 19-30 slots you are doing good, if one per year makes the jump to the game day 18 you are doing great.

[VWFC]

I don't think you will see large numbers of academy players suddenly start on the first 11. Robo will have immense pressure to get wins in MLS. Most of the academy players aren't ready or are just now getting there. Just making the game day 18 is a huge jump.

It is a long process and most don't make the final jump. A lot have gone to university and won't be back for a few years. If one academy player a year makes it to the 19-30 slots you are doing good, if one per year makes the jump to the game day 18 you are doing great.

Didn't say you would see a LARGE number, but you will see a) more residency signed (my guess is 2-3: Bustos, Froese, Farmer/Carducci) and young players Adekugbe, Alderson, Clarke (if and when he comes back), & Froese getting opportunities ahead of American journeymen.

There is always pressure to get wins, but assuming you can't do that with youth is just flat wrong. If you have been following the Caps closely you'll know they've been stressing the importance of bringing through the youth. It was one of the reasons Rennie was let go, and a bigger reason then most people realise.

I'm not sure that you're that familiar with who is coming through, but Adekugbe showed against Colorado that he is ready, Alderson will be 20, Clarke 21 - hardly jumping straight from the academy. Froese, Bustos, and Farmer have all been training with the first team since the summer.

[madmonte]

I don't think you will see large numbers of academy players suddenly start on the first 11. Robo will have immense pressure to get wins in MLS. Most of the academy players aren't ready or are just now getting there. Just making the game day 18 is a huge jump.

It is a long process and most don't make the final jump. A lot have gone to university and won't be back for a few years. If one academy player a year makes it to the 19-30 slots you are doing good, if one per year makes the jump to the game day 18 you are doing great.

Don't forget that the bottom end economics of the MLS are different than that of Europe. The Caps have to stay within a salary cap, and the easiest and often best way to do that is through youth ranks. You won't find a lot of talented non-North Americans willing to take the job on at $40k a year, and so those guys bump the cap, if you pay them more. That said, the players you DO find, willing to take what the MLS pays on the bottom end aren't much better than academy players anyway, in my opinion, so why NOT get them into the roster? (though perhaps not, as you say, the game day 18)

[Dub Narcotic]

Ah, the 'American journeyman', the bogeyman that is single-handedly destroying Canadian club soccer. Luckily, the residency players, bringers of all things good and beautiful and tasting of maple syrup and not having swallowed the bitter fruit of NCCA, will soon vanquish that enemy and bring many tropies.

[RJB]

I have to ask: What is making people think Robinson will be a good coach, or the right coach?

I'm not saying he's not, but I'll admit that I didn't sit in on meetings, I never went to the training ground, and haven't spoken with him. Aren't those three things that are critical to assessing his ability? That, or watching his previous teams, and there are none.

As I said before, he could be a great coach, but I don't think that very many of us on this board have a real leg to stand on in terms of thinking he's the perfect candidate. Though he may eventually prove such, what are people basing this on?

[tmcmurph]

Didn't say you would see a LARGE number, but you will see a) more residency signed (my guess is 2-3: Bustos, Froese, Farmer/Carducci) and young players Adekugbe, Alderson, Clarke (if and when he comes back), & Froese getting opportunities ahead of American journeymen.

There is always pressure to get wins, but assuming you can't do that with youth is just flat wrong. If you have been following the Caps closely you'll know they've been stressing the importance of bringing through the youth. It was one of the reasons Rennie was let go, and a bigger reason then most people realise.

I'm not sure that you're that familiar with who is coming through, but Adekugbe showed against Colorado that he is ready, Alderson will be 20, Clarke 21 - hardly jumping straight from the academy. Froese, Bustos, and Farmer have all been training with the first team since the summer.

Rennie did not have his option renewed for one reason only. The Caps didn't make the playoffs. All the rest is just rationalization and justification by the Duze. If they had pulled out one more win and made it do you really think he'd be gone? Like I've said in other posts, make the playoffs and all other shortcomings will be forgiven. Miss it and your on very thin ice.

Like I've also stated in other comments after 8 years now is when you expect to see the academy players start to fill in the 19-30 spots with hopefully some making the jump to the game day 18 and one or two in the starting 11. You can win with skilled youth but you can burn them out as well. It is a difficult judgement to make as to when a player is ready. The players you named in the 20-21 age group are the ones to watch and the odd one like Adekugbe who seem ready ahead of schedule are great signs.

Like all things in pro sports they will have to take the spots by exceeding their coaches' expectations every time they get a chance. The journeymen have been around a while for a reason. They are good enough for MLS and have experience. They are a lot tougher to displace than people think or we'd have a team full of residency players already.

Here's hoping we see a lot more quality players moving up over the next year plus.

Cheers

[tmcmurph]

I have to ask: What is making people think Robinson will be a good coach, or the right coach?

I'm not saying he's not, but I'll admit that I didn't sit in on meetings, I never went to the training ground, and haven't spoken with him. Aren't those three things that are critical to assessing his ability? That, or watching his previous teams, and there are none.

As I said before, he could be a great coach, but I don't think that very many of us on this board have a real leg to stand on in terms of thinking he's the perfect candidate. Though he may eventually prove such, what are people basing this on?

It is very difficult to say if a player will become a good coach or not. He has been around MLS for about 3 years as assistant, has the prerequisite UEFA license, the players think highly of him. To be honest it seems the Caps are going with another young coach who can "grow with the team" but that was what they said about Rennie when they hired him.

I wish for 2 things. One that the team does well and that if/when a slump occurs they don't wet their pants and fire him. Patience is a virtue

[VWFC]

Rennie did not have his option renewed for one reason only. The Caps didn't make the playoffs.

Like all things in pro sports they will have to take the spots by exceeding their coaches' expectations every time they get a chance. The journeymen have been around a while for a reason. They are good enough for MLS and have experience. They are a lot tougher to displace than people think or we'd have a team full of residency players already.

You're wrong about why Rennie was let go.

Its not about exceeding your coaches expectations or displacing other players. The investment in paying time will outweigh the loss of experience/quality, eventually. The coaches quality will be recognized in his ability to identify which kids are worth that investment and how he manages the playing time.

Sir Alex Ferguson was a master at it.

[ag futbol]

It is very difficult to say if a player will become a good coach or not. He has been around MLS for about 3 years as assistant, has the prerequisite UEFA license, the players think highly of him. To be honest it seems the Caps are going with another young coach who can "grow with the team" but that was what they said about Rennie when they hired him.

I wish for 2 things. One that the team does well and that if/when a slump occurs they don't wet their pants and fire him. Patience is a virtue

In fairness, Rennie came with USL experience. I think he should be given credit for that even though it's a step below MLS. Robinson is more inexperienced by comparison.

[tmcmurph]

In fairness, Rennie came with USL experience. I think he should be given credit for that even though it's a step below MLS. Robinson is more inexperienced by comparison.

Our MLS coaches have had less experience each change. Why stop now? Teitur, Tommy, Martin, Carl. Check out their CVs. Not that a strong CV is a guarantee of success (ie. Mexico 07 with Sven) but when "experience" is one of the reasons to not resign a coach who has improved the club 2 years in a row then this doesn't measure up. Then they redefine "experience" to include playing career. Ha ha, good one.

I wish Robo well and hope they make the playoffs 2 years in a row because that will give him time to get academy players worked into the paid 30. If he gets poor MLS results he'll feel the pressure and resort to journeymen. I wonder what would happen if we make the playoffs with 41-42 points for the next 2 years but didn't do anything else? I'd bet they'd keep the coach.

To VWFC: Don't drink the Caps version of Kook-Aid. If they had made the playoffs he would have had his one year option exercised and everything else would have been swept under the rug. Making the MLS post season is the ONLY important measure. All the others added up don't equal it. Robo will be under the same pressure so I really hope things go well or he'll revert to "journymen domestics" just like any coach trying to save his job.

Cheers

[Lord Bob]

While Rennie probably wouldn't have been canned if he made the playoffs, that's not quite the whole story. He also could have won the Voyageurs Cup, or successfully integrated Residency players into the first team and in general given us hope that the side would improve going forward. He did none of those things, and got a better point total because he beat up on the Eastern Conference and got luckier despite destroying the team's playoff hopes with that catastrophic Rochat trade.

[VWFC]

To VWFC: Don't drink the Caps version of Kook-Aid. If they had made the playoffs he would have had his one year option exercised and everything else would have been swept under the rug. Making the MLS post season is the ONLY important measure. All the others added up don't equal it. Robo will be under the same pressure so I really hope things go well or he'll revert to "journymen domestics" just like any coach trying to save his job.

Cheers

There's nothing being drunk, which is a shame, it'd make the work day a lot better. Unless you have some sort of information you can share that we don't know, then I'm afraid your wrong.

The Caps owners/management put huge importance in the Cup (because of the extra revenue and allocation money), they also put huge importance on youth development (because Kerfoot is a Canadian soccer fan and for the revenue of selling players to Europe. Profit from selling these players is part of the business plan).

MR would have kept his job without making the playoffs if they had won the cup and MR had done a better job at developing youth, which we know he wasn't very good at (he admitted that Teibert should have been given an opportunity much earlier, NRC called out the coaches for not having the best U-18's training with the first team, Mattocks, Clarke, Alderson, Manneh etc etc).

MR prescribed to the same incorrect philosophies that you do. That experience equals wins and youth equals losses. Don't assume Robo will do the same, no matter what pressure he's under.

[ag futbol]

While Rennie probably wouldn't have been canned if he made the playoffs, that's not quite the whole story. He also could have won the Voyageurs Cup, or successfully integrated Residency players into the first team and in general given us hope that the side would improve going forward. He did none of those things, and got a better point total because he beat up on the Eastern Conference and got luckier despite destroying the team's playoff hopes with that catastrophic Rochat trade.

This is just it. Yes, bottom line counts but it's also about how you get there and how sustainable things look going forward. You're seeing other MLS teams (LA, RSL, FCD) start to integrate HGPs into their setups and make an impact. This could provide a real competitive advantage in the future.

Rennie didn't quite make the playoffs, that's disappointing but as you said it's not the bottom line. If he had not quite made the playoffs and successfully integrated more youth players that might have been enough to save him. But as it stands, it seems like he took a short run approach, didn't get short run results, so management looked at it and said "why is the future any better? time to go in a new direction." Must be maddening to put so much into the academy, see players succeed elsewhere, but not maximize the benefit of having these prospects internally.

[VWFC]

This is just it. Yes, bottom line counts but it's also about how you get there and how sustainable things look going forward. You're seeing other MLS teams (LA, RSL, FCD) start to integrate HGPs into their setups and make an impact. This could provide a real competitive advantage in the future.

Rennie didn't quite make the playoffs, that's disappointing but as you said it's not the bottom line. If he had not quite made the playoffs and successfully integrated more youth players that might have been enough to save him. But as it stands, it seems like he took a short run approach, didn't get short run results, so management looked at it and said "why is the future any better? time to go in a new direction." Must be maddening to put so much into the academy, see players succeed elsewhere, but not maximize the benefit of having these prospects internally.

Correct.

Robbo from today "If they're good enough, they're old enough".

[tmcmurph]

Then we differ on our interpretation of the importance of the various measurements. C'est la ballon.

Here is hoping he can integrate more players from the youth side. The players he has to work with are a year older and have had experience from their loan outs. We'll see at the end of the year what the percentage of playing time they get.

Like I said here is hoping it goes well and they make the playoffs. That will give Robo some time to move players up.

[Dub Narcotic]

Who 'integrated' more youth in the league than Rennie? He had Teibert and Koffie regularly starting, Manneh, Mattocks and Hurtado got a decent number of minutes, and Leveron and Hertzog are still quite young. Clarke and Alderson got good loans and they even got Fisk a loan deal even though he's not actually a Whitecaps player. There were a few olds guys getting good minutes but not many teams had more young players around the first team than the Whitecaps did. It was just a made-up reason to get rid of Rennie that would appeal to some fans.

[tmcmurph]

Who 'integrated' more youth in the league than Rennie? He had Teibert and Koffie regularly starting, Manneh, Mattocks and Hurtado got a decent number of minutes, and Leveron and Hertzog are still quite young. Clarke and Alderson got good loans and they even got Fisk a loan deal even though he's not actually a Whitecaps player. There were a few olds guys getting good minutes but not many teams had more young players around the first team than the Whitecaps did. It was just a made-up reason to get rid of Rennie that would appeal to some fans.

I agree about it being just another lame excuse but on here it is "MNT eligible" players they are talking about. It is understandable because this is a MNT supporters forum. So nobody here would count Koffie, Manneh, Hurtado, Leveron & Hertzog. They are wanting more time for Canadian youth. When you look at it from a club perspective like you show the excuse of "he didn't develop youth" falls flat. What the Caps FO meant was he didn't utilize the academy players enough.

I think Koffie, Leveron and Manneh will get more playing time this year. For the Canadians we'll see how many crack the starting 11 and gameday 18. In the end the coach will use the best players he has regardless of where they are from because his job is on the line. Reality has a funny way of making adjustments for you. Hopefully the academy players will rise to the occasion and take the spots with great play.

[Lord Bob]

Who 'integrated' more youth in the league than Rennie? He had Teibert and Koffie regularly starting, Manneh, Mattocks and Hurtado got a decent number of minutes, and Leveron and Hertzog are still quite young. Clarke and Alderson got good loans and they even got Fisk a loan deal even though he's not actually a Whitecaps player.

It took Rennie a year and a half (a year and a half!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) to start more-than-occasionally playing a Teibert who was immediately one of the five top assist men in MLS. He inherited Koffie as a regular starter and has given him fewer minutes, not more, as time has gone on. Hertzog, Hurtado, Mattocks, and Leveron are all 23, which is not exactly young. None were developed by the Whitecaps, none were regular players, Leveron in particular absolutely fell out of the team as soon as Rennie had an excuse to drop him. Alderson got zero minutes in spite of being up against Jun Marques Davidson for playing time. Adekugbe got zero minutes until Rennie's hand was forced by suspension despite being up against Jordan ****ing Harvey, the worst left back in our dimension.

[canucklefan]

tmcmurph likes coaches that will play players already formed as professionals, players in their late 20s and older. I'm just glad the Whitecaps management had enough of Rennie, and I hope they will hire a coach who wants to work with young players.

[VWFC]

I agree about it being just another lame excuse but on here it is "MNT eligible" players they are talking about. It is understandable because this is a MNT supporters forum. So nobody here would count Koffie, Manneh, Hurtado, Leveron & Hertzog. They are wanting more time for Canadian youth. When you look at it from a club perspective like you show the excuse of "he didn't develop youth" falls flat. What the Caps FO meant was he didn't utilize the academy players enough.

I think Koffie, Leveron and Manneh will get more playing time this year. For the Canadians we'll see how many crack the starting 11 and gameday 18. In the end the coach will use the best players he has regardless of where they are from because his job is on the line. Reality has a funny way of making adjustments for you. Hopefully the academy players will rise to the occasion and take the spots with great play.

Nobody counts Hurtado, Leveron, Hertzog, etc because Rennie didn't develop them, he was handed them when they were 22-23, so the argument doesn't fall flat, it holds up quite well. There is a lot of talk about how poorly Rennie has handled Manneh, Salgado (both not Canadian), Teibert, Alderson, & Clarke.

[tmcmurph]

Because letting Salgado go for the US MNT callup was his fault, and having Manneh stay at his house with his family was such a poor way to treat a young 18 year old and getting playing time on loan outs and in the first 11 as subs is such a poor way to develop players. Right. Give it a rest. We differ so leave it at that.

[VWFC]

Because letting Salgado go for the US MNT callup was his fault, and having Manneh stay at his house with his family was such a poor way to treat a young 18 year old and getting playing time on loan outs and in the first 11 as subs is such a poor way to develop players. Right. Give it a rest. We differ so leave it at that.

The more you write about it the less I think you know about the Caps and youth development as a whole.

[tmcmurph]

The more you write about it the less I think you know about the Caps and youth development as a whole.

Well if he didn't do those things then he isn't responsible for youth development is he? So how can he be blamed for lack of it? Oh he didn't put them in the game day 18 and starting 11. That is about the only thing he can control and in his estimation they weren't ready. Maybe he was wrong, maybe he was right, time will tell. But to keep blaming him for poorly handling young players without giving him credit for the stuff that did happen is just one sided view of it.

Whatever. Over and out.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

I like to think over the last 2 season we progressed under Rennie.

I was willing to give him another year at the helm if it came to it, with optimism.

For me Rennie's biggest downfall was not 'development' because Manneh, Teibert, Alderson, Mitchell, Adekugbe all progressed positively. I would say Knighton as well he is a young goalie who I believe will catch on in NER be a solid starting goalie in the MLS.

As for the exceptions Mattocks and Clarke I think that was the players at fault, in ego's getting in the way. And at that age and their situation they should have no ego as they have done nothing so far to warrant any special treatment.

Now where I think Rennie failed is the in-game management and gameday lineup. I agree he was too cautious in putting out the aforementioned young players. and mishandling players in general on-the-field, bad substitutions players playing out of proffered positions. He constantly tried to fit square pegs into round holes during the 90 minutes.

That was his Achilles heel.

But to say he completely ignored the youth is a be naive. He did manage to find the best in 2 maybe 3 young players who might play integral roles moving forward in Teibert, Mitchell and Manneh