CPL Playoffs 2023

[RJB]

1 hour ago, phil03 said:

Watching OneSoccer gushing over their win against Cavalry and remembering several instances where they overestimated their odds of winning Canadian Championship games significantly more then they tend to do for other CPL clubs...

Am I the only one who get the sense OneSoccer has a bit too much of a pro-Forge bias?

They have their darling, and that's fine.  They're in their fifth straight final, so perhaps these media aren't gushing enough.  I think too it's not really a bias if it's correct... 

[phil03]

6 hours ago, RJB said:

They have their darling, and that's fine.  They're in their fifth straight final, so perhaps these media aren't gushing enough.  I think too it's not really a bias if it's correct... 

I'd respectfully disagree on both bolded points since a) OneSoccer is not just showing Forge's games, they are responsible for covering both the CPL in its entirety and the Canadian Championship so IMO they ought to try to keep some neutrality in their coverage of both and b) it isn't really correct IMO since it has to lead them to overestimate Forge's odds in the Canadian Championship in a way they don't, or at least don't do as much, with other CPL clubs but I understand where you are coming from.

Edited October 16, 2023 by phil03

[Ansem]

23 hours ago, phil03 said:

Its more for another thread but the thing with Smyrniotis is that, while an undoubtedly talented coach, all he has achieved has been against fellow second-tier clubs in CONCACAF. He has been given numerous chances to show he could pull an upset against a higher-level club but he never managed one, even when he benefitted from not being taken seriously enough by its opponents (vs MTL in Canadian Championship in 2021) or playing against a team who didn't really care about that game deep down (against TFC in the ''2020 Canadian Championship''). That should be of more concerned to those hypping him.

He only took a inaugural team in an inaugural league and was able to make runs in CONCACAF with results in Central America (where CanMNT and MLS clubs have struggled there) against clubs that on average over a half a century old - yep, pure hype 🙄🤣

[Cheeta]

22 hours ago, RJB said:

They have their darling, and that's fine.  They're in their fifth straight final, so perhaps these media aren't gushing enough.  I think too it's not really a bias if it's correct... 

And to be fair Cavalry getting some real love from everyone over at OneSoccer the back half of the season.  Quite rightly.

 

 

[Cicero]

To me, Forge has looked uninspired most of the season, when on paper, they should have been closer to Cavalry, so that's a mark against Smyrniotis. The other thing is that none of their players have moved on to bigger things, even though they've had some players who really should be able to. I don't know why that is, but it is a bit of a mark against him.

I hope we see the stylish Forge of 2021 and last year's final in the final this year, rather than the dull, plodding team that manages to get by that we've seen much of this season.

[Aird25]

40 minutes ago, Cicero said:

To me, Forge has looked uninspired most of the season, when on paper, they should have been closer to Cavalry, so that's a mark against Smyrniotis. The other thing is that none of their players have moved on to bigger things, even though they've had some players who really should be able to. I don't know why that is, but it is a bit of a mark against him.

I hope we see the stylish Forge of 2021 and last year's final in the final this year, rather than the dull, plodding team that manages to get by that we've seen much of this season.

I've never understood how they manage to keep their key pieces. Pacific lost 90% of their squad after winning and had to completely rebuild.

[Cicero]

9 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I've never understood how they manage to keep their key pieces. Pacific lost 90% of their squad after winning and had to completely rebuild.

A big part of that is that most of the team is from the GTA, and there are lots of jobs for guys in the off-season. I presume most of them do other things given the off-season is so long and the pay isn't amazing.

[narduch]

11 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I've never understood how they manage to keep their key pieces. Pacific lost 90% of their squad after winning and had to completely rebuild.

And 2 of them went to Forge

[Footscray]

2 hours ago, Cicero said:

To me, Forge has looked uninspired most of the season, when on paper, they should have been closer to Cavalry, so that's a mark against Smyrniotis. The other thing is that none of their players have moved on to bigger things, even though they've had some players who really should be able to. I don't know why that is, but it is a bit of a mark against him.

I hope we see the stylish Forge of 2021 and last year's final in the final this year, rather than the dull, plodding team that manages to get by that we've seen much of this season.

Honestly they looked uninspired this weekend too, they barely touched the ball they must have been around 30% possession and they got a super lucky break on the first goal that completely changed the balance of the game.  Hard to say they deserved to win it, though there's always something to be said for gutting out a victory any way you can and I will say that Cavalry were a bit disappointing themselves as far as how they used the ball and completely collapsed defending on two particular counter attacking sequences by failing to pick up the trailing player, one where Forge scored and one where they were unlucky not to.

It's harsh for Forge but the league really needs another team to win soon, the interest level from the common fan and the optics of the league's owner's team winning every season just isn't best served by Forge winning every season as much as I'm sure it's satisfying for Bob Young.  I'm really hoping for a team in Kelowna here but if this keeps up where Forge win every season for the next few years before we join it would really dampen enthusiasm a bit.  Even with Kyle Becker leaning into being the heel and the challenge of knocking them off their perch it's not like watching Man U pile up titles with Cantona Giggs and co where at least if you hated them you appreciated the style of football and they are can't miss viewing, I find it a hard watch the way they play as a neutral.

I don't think there's any big conspiracy or unfairness in their favor to be clear and I respect the achievement immensely - someone else needs to step up and earn it, but it's also unclear to me, to a previous poster's point, how they are keeping their roster in tact with multiple stars and on top of that poaching from other teams while signing ex Canadian internationals like James as free agents and staying under the 1.2 million dollar cap somehow and I hope things change for the league soon and give some of the other clubs some oxygen.  It would be really good for the league to have a team like York, Cavs, Halifax, etc host and win a final, probably add permanent fans in that market and ensure the longer term viability of the league.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Footscray

[Kingston]

5 minutes ago, Footscray said:

I don't think there's any big conspiracy or unfairness in their favor to be clear and I respect the achievement, but it's also unclear to me, to a previous poster's point, how they are keeping their roster in tact with multiple stars and on top of that poaching from other teams while signing ex Canadian internationals like James as free agents and staying under the 1.2 million dollar cap somehow.

I think they are actually helped in that regard by the low salary cap.

There's a minimum of $30k per player and a maximum roster size of 23.  So $690k of the cap is used just getting everyone up to the minimum. 

The U21 rule means an extra $100 k that can only be spent on U21 players.  So, unless your stars are very young - which most aren't in this league - the functional cap is $1.1 million.  And it's a hard cap with no exceptions.

So once a team has accounted for the minimum per player, there is only $410 k left to spread among all the players you might wish to entice with extra money.  And that's if a team spends to the cap.

So basically, there isn't a lot of room for other teams to swoop in a break up their successful roster.  I mean, if you're making $50 k in Hamilton on a winning team and having fun, are you really going to move to Winnipeg for $55 k?  And conversely, especially if you come from somewhere in southern Ontario, might you be willing to let yourself be poached and play for a champion in Hamilton even if the money is no better than in Victoria or Halifax?

 

 

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

And 2 of them went to Forge

True, but we've also lost players to teams outside the league as well. Cavalry has too, probably even moreso. Forge don't seem to have the same problem 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Aird25

[jonovision]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of any salary cap funny business going on, but a real life financial advantage Forge does have (and York too, I suppose) is having so many of their Canadian players playing close to home. It is much easier for these players to continue to pursue other moneymaking opportunities (and maintain only one residence) than it is for a player spending 6 months away from home in Halifax or Winnipeg. This ability to pursue other opportunities and potentially keep other costs down will often be well-worth taking a reduced salary.

[Aird25]

2 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of any salary cap funny business going on, but a real life financial advantage Forge does have (and York too, I suppose) is having so many of their Canadian players playing close to home. It is much easier for these players to continue to pursue other moneymaking opportunities (and maintain only one residence) than it is for a player spending 6 months away from home in Halifax or Winnipeg. This ability to pursue other opportunities and potentially keep other costs down will often be well-worth taking a reduced salary.

Does anyone have any knowledge of CPL players working a second job? I've never seen a player slinging burgers or behind the counter at Footlocker in Langford, but I run into players out and about in the city all the time. Especially at the beach 

[jonovision]

1 minute ago, Aird25 said:

Does anyone have any knowledge of CPL players working a second job? I've never seen a player slinging burgers or behind the counter at Footlocker in Langford, but I run into players out and about in the city all the time. Especially at the beach 

I'd imagine more things like coaching, being involved with soccer camps, maybe a personal trainer gig.

[Kent]

15 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Does anyone have any knowledge of CPL players working a second job? I've never seen a player slinging burgers or behind the counter at Footlocker in Langford, but I run into players out and about in the city all the time. Especially at the beach 

I've seen Ashtone Morgan selling coffee while he was still playing. Can't remember for sure if it was during the season or off-season.

[Aird25]

3 minutes ago, Kent said:

I've seen Ashtone Morgan selling coffee while he was still playing. Can't remember for sure if it was during the season or off-season.

Ashtone Morgan still plays?!

[Aird25]

20 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I'd imagine more things like coaching, being involved with soccer camps, maybe a personal trainer gig.

I remember de Jong and Issey trying to start something on the island. I don't think it was successful though, and they were both former national team players 

[narduch]

9 minutes ago, Kent said:

I've seen Ashtone Morgan selling coffee while he was still playing. Can't remember for sure if it was during the season or off-season.

Didn't he own that coffee shop?

I think with another player

[Kent]

4 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Ashtone Morgan still plays?!

He retired in July of this year. I saw him working this other job before then, like a year-ish ago.

[Kent]

Just now, narduch said:

Didn't he own that coffee shop?

I think with another player

Yes, kinda. He owned (owns?) a coffee shop with one or two other players (I forget who), then I think had to relocate and when I saw him it was being operated out of a little shop that wasn't owned by the coffee shop... if any of that makes sense. I haven't been back there in a while but I know the shop itself still exists, don't know for sure if the coffee is still being run there as well.

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Kent said:

Yes, kinda. He owned (owns?) a coffee shop with one or two other players (I forget who), then I think had to relocate and when I saw him it was being operated out of a little shop that wasn't owned by the coffee shop... if any of that makes sense. I haven't been back there in a while but I know the shop itself still exists, don't know for sure if the coffee is still being run there as well.

Liam Fraser. They have their own spot again.

The Sonndr Cafe (@thesonndr) • Instagram photos and videos

[shorty]

According to a contact I have, developmental players get no pay, but can claim expenses related to training (gas, etc). USports players also do not get pay but can get housing allowances, food allowances, etc. It would not surprise me if regular roster guys also get non-salary benefits as well to make their salary stretch further, and assuming so, that this might be different depending on the owner and their capacity/disposition to offer such things. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by shorty

[Aird25]

53 minutes ago, shorty said:

According to a contact I have, developmental players get no pay, but can claim expenses related to training (gas, etc). USports players also do not get pay but can get housing allowances, food allowances, etc. It would not surprise me if regular roster guys also get non-salary benefits as well to make their salary stretch further, and assuming so, that this might be different depending on the owner and their capacity/disposition to offer such things. 

Minimum compensation is $30k. It's pretty well detailed by the league. Compensation may include things like housing though 

https://canpl.ca/article/canadian-premier-league-announces-increases-to-salary-cap

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

10 hours ago, jonovision said:

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of any salary cap funny business going on, but a real life financial advantage Forge does have (and York too, I suppose) is having so many of their Canadian players playing close to home...

Especially when extra expenses associated with signing a player such as accomodation costs for out of town players are rumoured to be getting bundled into the cap.

[chalms04]

On 10/15/2023 at 9:11 AM, MtlMario said:

Can someone remind me who gets the second Concacaf spot if Cavalry win both trophies?

Forge is guaranteed a spot if Cavalry beat Pacific in the semi. 

I'm not sure which spot carries more cache (if any) for the CCC draw.