2021 Voyageurs Cup

[RS]

Just now, narduch said:

Just wait for the 3 MLS clubs to beg for the Voyageurs Cup to keep the single match rounds due to the fixture congestion caused by the new Leagues Cup.

That will suck.

It's inevitable that the Voyageurs Cup will suffer due to the expansion of both the Leagues Cup and CCL.

The CPL teams will not be disappointed if their fixture lists are less congested, either.

[Bison44]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

Just wait for the 3 MLS clubs to beg for the Voyageurs Cup to keep the single match rounds due to the fixture congestion caused by the new Leagues Cup.

That will suck.

Make sure its at the lower level teams ground then and while we are at it boost the CDN content to 5.  Montreal plays that many all the time, its not the hardship that it once was, put a little more canada into the Canadian championship.  

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, RS said:

Yeah! Can't wait for the Voyageurs Cup to be delegitimized!

You're free to email your complain to CONCACAF - they demoted the V cup winner from automatic entry to round of 16 to round one, just like the US Open Cup.

You could be saying that the tournament should be expanded or the format could be changed to have more clubs and games instead to "further legitimize it". Anyone you'd ask would find it dumb that only 3 games is all that's needed to be a country's champions.

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, narduch said:

Just wait for the 3 MLS clubs to beg for the Voyageurs Cup to keep the single match rounds due to the fixture congestion caused by the new Leagues Cup.

That will suck.

The more reason the quota should be raised to 5 but I thing we'll go back to the home and away formula. The flip coin toss is becoming quite controversial

[RS]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

You're free to email your complain to CONCACAF - they demoted the V cup winner from automatic entry to round of 16 to round one, just like the US Open Cup.

You could be saying that the tournament should be expanded or the format could be changed to have more clubs and games instead to "further legitimize it". Anyone you'd ask would find it dumb that only 3 games is all that's needed to be a country's champions.

You understand that this year's format contains the most teams it ever has (along with 2019) and is also only single-legged due to COVID, yes?

Were you expecting a full-fledged tournament this year when both MLS and CPL started late and are squeezing fixtures in wherever they can?

[Ansem]

25 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Make sure its at the lower level teams ground then and while we are at it boost the CDN content to 5.  Montreal plays that many all the time, its not the hardship that it once was, put a little more canada into the Canadian championship.  

They'll fight for the status quo as the V Cup will become their easiest path to CCL. I don't like their chances in League Cup or MLS regular season except for the odds times they might grab a berth. CPL getting 2 automatic plus another chance via V Cup is indeed a massive win for the league.

What would have helped MLS teams would have been for the finalist to also be granted a berth - which I couldn't believe there were people trying to make that case...

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ansem

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, RS said:

You understand that this year's format contains the most teams it ever has (along with 2019) and is also only single-legged due to COVID, yes?

Were you expecting a full-fledged tournament this year when both MLS and CPL started late and are squeezing fixtures in wherever they can?

I'm talking in a normal year - obviously not during Covid times. There's no reason for the format to not have more games like the League Cup, CFU and Central American Cup - if you really want this cup to stay legit as Canada's champions. I'm not against that designation but more games are needed. No, winning most games over 6 or 7 and be branded "Canada's Champions" is equally ridiculous and our friends south of the border also think so

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ansem

[narduch]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You're free to email your complain to CONCACAF - they demoted the V cup winner from automatic entry to round of 16 to round one, just like the US Open Cup.

You could be saying that the tournament should be expanded or the format could be changed to have more clubs and games instead to "further legitimize it". Anyone you'd ask would find it dumb that only 3 games is all that's needed to be a country's champions.

Wait did Concacaf already set that? I thought that was going to come later.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, narduch said:

Wait did Concacaf already set that? I thought that was going to come later.

Yes they did!

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Yes they did!

Thanks.

Other than giving the Leagues Cup winner a bye I don't totally hate it.

Do feel the Voyageurs Cup winner deserves that spot more

[RS]

38 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'm talking in a normal year - obviously not during Covid times. There's no reason for the format to not have more games like the League Cup, CFU and Central American Cup - if you really want this cup to stay legit as Canada's champions. I'm not against that designation but more games are needed. No, winning most games over 6 or 7 is equally ridiculous

Leicester won the most recent FA Cup playing 6 games. That's what cup competitions are.

[Ansem]

46 minutes ago, RS said:

Leicester won the most recent FA Cup playing 6 games. That's what cup competitions are.

FA Cup winner isn't considered the true "Champions of England" now - are they?

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ansem

[ted]

21 minutes ago, Ansem said:

FA Cup winner isn't considered the true "Champions of England" now - are they?

Uhm, that's exactly why they are in the CL, as the closest thing they will ever get to "Champions of England" rather then league champions.

[RS]

56 minutes ago, Ansem said:

FA Cup winner isn't considered the true "Champions of England" now - are they?

Tell me you don't know how cup competitions work without telling me you don't know how cup competitions work.

[Cblake]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

Just wait for the 3 MLS clubs to beg for the Voyageurs Cup to keep the single match rounds due to the fixture congestion caused by the new Leagues Cup.

That will suck.

As the CPL expands and the D3 level grows as we will see with the addition of League1 BC, the tournament will grow in size and thus a single game elimination will be the only way to go. I would push for a 40 team tournament similar to what the US Open Cup was until 2011 before it saw massive growth. The first two rounds would be regional draws to keep travel costs down as we obviously know we can straddle D3 teams with massive road trips. The US Open Cup does the same. How many spots each league gets would have to be determined, plus if any amateur level teams like VMSL, OSA, AMSL etc are included. The format could be tweaked with a preliminary round as the CPL grows an hopefully we see more D3 leagues. 

 

32 Teams	First Round
16 Teams	Second Round
16 Teams	Third Round	5 CPL, 3 MLS  clubs enter
8 Teams	Quarterfinals
4 Teams	Semifinals
2 Teams	Final

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, RS said:

Tell me you don't know how cup competitions work without telling me you don't know how cup competitions work.

Enjoy the mental gymnastics (you know excatly where I'm going with this) - find me a US fan who views the US Cup winner as the champions of the US... Jesus

MLS clubs will be able to get CCL berth via the league and league cup. They can become the American champions and good for them for no longer being glorified guests. That was always the fairer scenario.

Not sure what's so traumatic about CPL champions being the champions of Canada over 28 games + playoffs instead of branding a club (same opinion should a CPL club win it) needing to win at best 3 games overall.

I played dumb and googled "French Champions"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_football_champions

Why is it saying Lille and not PSG?

Please don't make me call my French cousins and hit them with this dumb question

😉

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ansem

[RJB]

9 hours ago, RS said:

But simultaneously not embarrassing if it's Montreal, yeah?

Not at all, just slightly less embarrassing.  18 points less embarrassing, with one game to go. 

I've said it many times, that the three MLS teams based in Canada should qualify based on the American league they play in. Going forward, the CPL winner will get a direct birth thankfully. Moreover though, now that we have a league, I don't think the MLS teams should be in the Voyageurs Cup!

 

[Watchmen]

8 hours ago, Ansem said:

What would have helped MLS teams would have been for the finalist to also be granted a berth - which I couldn't believe there were people trying to make that case...

I believe my statement at the time was along the lines of "They aren't giving Canada CL 4 spots, but if they do it will be on the understanding that the VCup finalist also gets a spot, because they'll want to get more MLS teams in".  And I was correct in that they didn't give Canada 4 spots, but they did find a different option to give Canada's MLS teams more shots at getting in.

[Watchmen]

8 minutes ago, RJB said:

Moreover though, now that we have a league, I don't think the MLS teams should be in the Voyageurs Cup!

Considering that the CPL teams seem to be pushing for the MLS teams to be in it (but always visiting the lower seeded team), I'm not sure either the CPL or the CSA would agree with you.

[Kent]

8 hours ago, RJB said:

Not at all, just slightly less embarrassing.  18 points less embarrassing, with one game to go. 

I've said it many times, that the three MLS teams based in Canada should qualify based on the American league they play in. Going forward, the CPL winner will get a direct birth thankfully. Moreover though, now that we have a league, I don't think the MLS teams should be in the Voyageurs Cup!

 

The MLS teams being in the Voyageurs Cup makes the tournament more prestigious in my opinion. More eyeballs on the CPL teams, even if TFC fans can't be bothered to go to the games, there were still highlights on Sportscentre so I'm sure a few more people have heard of Pacific now. The chances for upsets like Pacific beating Vancouver, and Cavalry a couple years before as well, also helps legitimize the CPL.

It's good for soccer in Canada, as well as the CPL for the MLS teams to be in the Voyageurs Cup. It's a proving ground for CPL teams, and to a certain extent the D3 teams as well.

[ted]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

The MLS teams being in the Voyageurs Cup makes the tournament more prestigious in my opinion.

I'd go further: without the MLS teams it would be virtually pointless. 

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, ted said:

I'd go further: without the MLS teams it would be virtually pointless. 

Bingo.

Voyageurs created the cup, with originally award for teams in combined USA/Canada Leagues. If the intent was to award it to non-USL teams, they would have awarded it to the CSL or the Open Canada Cup winner.

I don't understand the desire by some to rewrite history. Most Canadian MLS fans were thrilled to see the addition of 3 Canadian leagues to the competition - and hopefully one or two more still!

[RS]

21 hours ago, Ansem said:

Not sure what's so traumatic about CPL champions being the champions of Canada

There's nothing traumatic about it. It's just wrong.

No amount of Wikipedia links proves otherwise.

21 hours ago, Ansem said:

find me a US fan who views the US Cup winner as the champions of the US... Jesus

I could find you many.

What you wouldn't find is a US fan who considered TFC the champions of the US in 2017.

17 hours ago, RJB said:

Moreover though, now that we have a league, I don't think the MLS teams should be in the Voyageurs Cup!

Sorry, but this is an idiotic idea.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, RS said:

There's nothing traumatic about it. It's just wrong.

According to what's traditionally being done, I'm not - They play in a US league but wants to be champion of Canada. Can't have it both ways

[RJB]

The Canadian championship is a cup competition that happens to award the Voyageurs Cup. Just because the trophy once went to the top team in Canada doesn't mean it will forever represent that. And that's not rewriting history, that's correctly identifying the present.

A lot has changed since the trophy started being awarded, including a national league that is growing in importance.  And a lot has changed since we all cheered the three Canadian MLS teams.  Frankly speaking, if no MLS teams means that the Canadian Championship becomes pointless - something I strongly disagree with - then perhaps it should die. And if it does then the trophy could be awarded to the CPL winner.  The Voyageurs Cup is a trophy, not a competition.