Lucas Dias - Sporting CP

[Unnamed Trialist]

I don't think folks realize that if he gets first team minutes with Sporting he almost immediately should be called into our senior side and could be taking another mids' minutes. Probably Osorio, certainly ahead of Fraser or Wotherspoon. There with Loturi amongst the younger set. 

It's all so frivolous I find, we don't seem to have a clear idea what we're talking about. Playing for Sporting, nah, let's get all hyped about some lower leaguer.

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Weren't those games with the U23? Per transfermarkt, he made two bench apps for the B team, both in August '22.

Could be. Was just looking at his wiki page (which is probably less reliable than transfermarkt).

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I don't think folks realize that if he gets first team minutes with Sporting he almost immediately should be called into our senior side and could be taking another mids' minutes. Probably Osorio, certainly ahead of Fraser or Wotherspoon. There with Loturi amongst the younger set. 

It's all so frivolous I find, we don't seem to have a clear idea what we're talking about. Playing for Sporting, nah, let's get all hyped about some lower leaguer.

Again, what are you even talking about here? Who amongst us doesn't immediately put him into the mix once he cracks the Sporting first team lineup? I don't care if it's an injury time debut in a Cup match, the moment he sees the field for the first team he automatically goes into the depth chart for our senior team. 

[Bigandy]

24 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

You're saying rumours don't matter, but then you go on to talk about potential situations that maybe might've happened. What we know is that there was interest in sending him to Scotland, his own brother said so. We know he's never played for the B team yet, and we also know that he finished last year with the U23s coming off the bench. I don't want to knock the kid because I still hope he can be very good for us, but based on his development over the last year, you think it's more likely that they're calling him up because they value him and not because he's a player they can use in training because he's not playing anywhere else? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

I didnt talk about potential situations that maybe mightve happened. Thats a nonsense claim. I said he was injured. Then i posed both sides of the debate. 

Side 1: he was injured. Now that hes back, it makes sense to call him up as he is valued. 
-supporting reasons. 
-A. They call up the captain of the B team and a u19 portugal GK.
-B. A player who is on the outs is clearly not good enough for the u23/b teams. Why would this player get selected to train with the first team when you have countless better options. Managers dont want players who would ruin drills. If your on the outs, you have no chance of being good enough to play on the sr. team.

side 2: Hes not valued and on the "outs". Therefore lets call him up.  
-Supporting reasons
-A. There is a rumour of him going to hearts (the fact he never went to hearts could prove that sporting blocked the move because they value him, therefore its a bit of a weak argument without more information).
-B. Someone posted on here that he is on the "outs". 

[InglewoodJack]

7 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I didnt talk about potential situations that maybe mightve happened. Thats a nonsense claim. I said he was injured. Then i posed both sides of the debate. 

Side 1: he was injured. Now that hes back, it makes sense to call him up as he is valued. 
-supporting reasons. 
-A. They call up the captain of the B team and a u19 portugal GK.
-B. A player who is on the outs is clearly not good enough for the u23/b teams. Why would this player get selected to train with the first team when you have countless better options. Managers dont want players who would ruin drills. If your on the outs, you have no chance of being good enough to play on the sr. team.

side 2: Hes not valued and on the "outs". Therefore lets call him up.  
-Supporting reasons
-A. There is a rumour of him going to hearts (the fact he never went to hearts could prove that sporting blocked the move because they value him, therefore its a bit of a weak argument without more information).
-B. Someone posted on here that he is on the "outs". 

Sporting B have a game in 3 days. Why wouldn't they want him to train with the team he actually should be playing for instead of running drills with the A team? No one is saying he sucks, I think any player who is good enough to climb the youth ladder at Sporting is good enough to at the very least train with the team, he wouldn't "ruin drills".

Let me put it this way- what have you seen or heard about Dias that would make you believe that Sporting rates him so high that they're going to call him up to train with the senior team above all those other players when he hasn't even- pre or post injury- played for the B team?

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, InglewoodJack said:

Sporting B have a game in 3 days. Why wouldn't they want him to train with the team he actually should be playing for instead of running drills with the A team? No one is saying he sucks, I think any player who is good enough to climb the youth ladder at Sporting is good enough to at the very least train with the team, he wouldn't "ruin drills".

Let me put it this way- what have you seen or heard about Dias that would make you believe that Sporting rates him so high that they're going to call him up to train with the senior team above all those other players when he hasn't even- pre or post injury- played for the B team?

@Bigandy here is another thing to consider: Maybe the captain of B team is with the first team because he is very close and they may use him. That's not necessarily true of Dias and maybe there is another reason why he was chosen. There could be different reasons why different players were picked to train with the Sporting first team.

Again though, whatever the reasons it's good. I actually prefer he train with the first team and miss the B game. 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

Sporting B have a game in 3 days. Why wouldn't they want him to train with the team he actually should be playing for instead of running drills with the A team? No one is saying he sucks, I think any player who is good enough to climb the youth ladder at Sporting is good enough to at the very least train with the team, he wouldn't "ruin drills".

Let me put it this way- what have you seen or heard about Dias that would make you believe that Sporting rates him so high that they're going to call him up to train with the senior team above all those other players when he hasn't even- pre or post injury- played for the B team?

I think the claim that he sucks is the exact point that Ive refuted this whole time. Or in other words, hes been on the "outs" and I disagree.  If you are on the "outs" you are not good enough for sportings youth teams and therefore not good enough to train with the first team.  

I have never said he is close to a first team debut or boasted his ability. I have maintained that he is not on the "outs"  and is valued based on being called up to first team training.  There is just no possible scenario that you have a youth player you are determined to cut, and the solution to that is to promote him to the first team right before a massive game..... 

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think the claim that he sucks is the exact point that Ive refuted this whole time. Or in other words, hes been on the "outs" and I disagree.  If you are on the "outs" you are not good enough for sportings youth teams and therefore not good enough to train with the first team.  

I have never said he is close to a first team debut or boasted his ability. I have maintained that he is not on the "outs"  and is valued based on being called up to first team training.  There is just no possible scenario that you have a youth player you are determined to cut, and the solution to that is to promote him to the first team right before a massive game..... 

I would refute that too and to be honest I don't think anyone suggested he sucks. If it came from me then I appologize for not being clear. I think Dias is a very good prospect and that's precisely why I have grown impatient with his situation. Had I thought he sucked I wouldn't of made such a big deal. It's because I rate him that I want to see him playing first team football.

Unlike @Unnamed Trialist I actually think there is a limit to how long you can stay at a massive club without playing for the first team. Eventually you have to move on if you are not breaking through, plain and simple. At 20 years old there is still time for him to break into Sporting, but he's not 17 or 18 anymore. The time is coming soon where he needs to move on if he's not breaking through, but when that time is can be debated. 

I have said before that I want to see him getting close to the first team before the year is out. If he's made the bench a handful of times without actually seeing the field I will be encouraged. If he's playing regularly for the B side without even getting on the bench for the first team, I will still be relatively optimistic. If he plays mostly with the U23 team and barely plays with the B team and doesn't get a sniff at the first team, I will be very worried. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think the claim that he sucks is the exact point that Ive refuted this whole time. Or in other words, hes been on the "outs" and I disagree.  If you are on the "outs" you are not good enough for sportings youth teams and therefore not good enough to train with the first team.  

I have never said he is close to a first team debut or boasted his ability. I have maintained that he is not on the "outs"  and is valued based on being called up to first team training.  There is just no possible scenario that you have a youth player you are determined to cut, and the solution to that is to promote him to the first team right before a massive game..... 

You are 100% correct. Some posters are simply trying too hard to tear him down; it's a bit sad because the zeal they put into it is way out of proportion, and way off the radius of their habitual posts here.

I also think it has no correspondence to how academy structures work for top teams. Look, I follow a team with probably the most teens in the first team roster in Europe, Gavi, Balde, Fermin, Yamal. But I am not so ignorant to rule out the B players into their 20s and the u19s who never go to 1st team practice even. Because all evidence points to multiple paths, that is the plain fact. The path ends when your contract ends and they let you go, never before.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You are 100% correct. Some posters are simply trying too hard to tear him down; it's a bit sad because the zeal they put into it is way out of proportion, and way off the radius of their habitual posts here.

@Bigandy don't listen to this garbage. Nobody is tearing down Dias. 

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I also think it has no correspondence to how academy structures work for top teams. Look, I follow a team with probably the most teens in the first team roster in Europe, Gavi, Balde, Fermin, Yamal. But I am not so ignorant to rule out the B players into their 20s and the u19s who never go to 1st team practice even. Because all evidence points to multiple paths, that is the plain fact. The path ends when your contract ends and they let you go, never before.

We are on the same page here. Being a B player for Sporting is huge and when/if his contract runs out he'll land on his feet.

It's just that SPL rumblings combined with zero first team appearances make it seem likely that it'll play out this way. Again though, you never know. He could be a Sporting first team player by season's end for all we know. 

[Footyeh]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I think the claim that he sucks is the exact point that Ive refuted this whole time. Or in other words, hes been on the "outs" and I disagree.  If you are on the "outs" you are not good enough for sportings youth teams and therefore not good enough to train with the first team.  

I have never said he is close to a first team debut or boasted his ability. I have maintained that he is not on the "outs"  and is valued based on being called up to first team training.  There is just no possible scenario that you have a youth player you are determined to cut, and the solution to that is to promote him to the first team right before a massive game..... 

Respectfully, it’s very COMMON for players from the 2nd team & even the Academy to fill in numbers for 1st team training.  They are there for bodies, their inclusion is hardly meaningful and mostly used in tactical demonstrations/shadow play.  You also don’t bring a player to fill numbers in training if he has a the chance to play. competitive game in the same days.  We see it all the time, the USMNT fans on social media get caught hyping players for “being spotted in 1st team training with x club” when usually it’s International Break and many bodies are needed so the academy boys get the call.  

There has to be some common sense here, he’s not playing in the B team, he’s not playing in the U23 team (C team?), he’s not favoured and that’s not going to change anytime soon.  Doesn’t mean he’s not a good player, just means Sporting has zero intention for the player.   He signed a 5-6 year contract back in 2020, it’s not far fetched to be believe the club is having a hard time offloading him maybe due to his wages (he was considered one of their top prospects at the time of extension).  

Edited October 4, 2023 by Footyeh

[Bigandy]

38 minutes ago, Footyeh said:

Respectfully, it’s very COMMON for players from the 2nd team & even the Academy to fill in numbers for 1st team training.  They are there for bodies, their inclusion is hardly meaningful and mostly used in tactical demonstrations/shadow play.  You also don’t bring a player to fill numbers in training if he has a the chance to play. competitive game in the same days.  We see it all the time, the USMNT fans on social media get caught hyping players for “being spotted in 1st team training with x club” when usually it’s International Break and many bodies are needed so the academy boys get the call.  

There has to be some common sense here, he’s not playing in the B team, he’s not playing in the U23 team (C team?), he’s not favoured and that’s not going to change anytime soon.  Doesn’t mean he’s not a good player, just means Sporting has zero intention for the player.   He signed a 5-6 year contract back in 2020, it’s not far fetched to be believe the club is having a hard time offloading him maybe due to his wages (he was considered one of their top prospects at the time of extension).  

What you are saying is true. How you apply that to dias is challenging.

Who does the 1st team call up when they need players? Do you call them up from the bottom or top of the depth charts. Obviously there are circumstances like matches that prevent some from getting the call. 
My point is that dias cant be bottom of the depth chart or on the "outs" if hes chosen alongside the B team captain. if the B team captain is picked, they can obviously pick any B team player. They wouldnt choose dias if they wanted him gone.  

Common sense is such a poor way of justifying your opinion. Isnt it "common sense" that when the B team captain, the best GK prospect are called up to train with the first team, they are closer to being on the "in" than the "outs".  Surely dias is the same.  

High wages? what sort of 17year old at sporting without any first team appearances has high wages that cant be moved. Thats so much more far fetched than saying he hasnt played recently because hes been injured.  

Even if he is just a C level player, he still is not on the outs. There is probably 50-60 players to choose from. Even if half are unavalable, theres still 25-30 players to select from. No first team chooses youth players who are on the "outs". Thats just not common sense. 

[Bigandy]

You can call dias treatment, "the adam pearlman/michel, campagna" treatment during the CMNT camps. These players are on the "in" with CMNT (even if they arent close to the first team) not the "outs" like a tiebert. CMNT is invested in them, not actively trying to get rid of them.  Same for dias.  Im shocked so many people are trying to justify that his first team inclusion is irrelevant and that he is still on the "outs".

[Footyeh]

8 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

What you are saying is true. How you apply that to dias is challenging.

Who does the 1st team call up when they need players? Do you call them up from the bottom or top of the depth charts. Obviously there are circumstances like matches that prevent some from getting the call. 
My point is that dias cant be bottom of the depth chart or on the "outs" if hes chosen alongside the B team captain. if the B team captain is picked, they can obviously pick any B team player. They wouldnt choose dias if they wanted him gone.  

Common sense is such a poor way of justifying your opinion. Isnt it "common sense" that when the B team captain, the best GK prospect are called up to train with the first team, they are closer to being on the "in" than the "outs".  Surely dias is the same.  

High wages? what sort of 17year old at sporting without any first team appearances has high wages that cant be moved. Thats so much more far fetched than saying he hasnt played recently because hes been injured.  

Even if he is just a C level player, he still is not on the outs. There is probably 50-60 players to choose from. Even if half are unavalable, theres still 25-30 players to select from. No first team chooses youth players who are on the "outs". Thats just not common sense. 

Mate, clubs really aren’t looking at the how a player is ranked within their club when they simply need bodies for a session.  If you’ve been to any club in Europe and observed training you’d see it.  Heck, go to your local mls club and you’ll see the same thing.  Kids get used as pylons a lot.  You’re just really over-thinking things.  
 

Regarding wages… what’s farfetched?  Do you happen to know the economics of what top prospects can earn in clubs like that?   It’s not a cash strapped club.  What’s the single biggest issue that prevents a transfer from happening?  Money.  It’s a club with resources, he was a top youth international and one that had options.  The club signed him to a 5-6 year deal, for example say the salary is in the realm of $200k-$250k euros, who knows what Sporting is asking to get him out?  It’s not farfetched to think what they are asking is not something attractive to other clubs (maybe they won’t cover full wages, maybe the purchase option isn’t realistic with so many years left on the contract, maybe teams have no confidence because he’s not playing at ANY level.)

Those Scottish teams he was rumoured with are definitely not going to cover those wages.  No team in Portugal outside the big 4 can afford that.  Netherlands, outside the big 4 forget it.  Maybe the MLS would be willing to.  What else are you left with? 

Also, we don’t know what the players expectations were about an exit.  Has he been realistic?  Does he have poor advisors?  These situations are common all across Europe.  

[Bigandy]

14 hours ago, Footyeh said:

Mate, clubs really aren’t looking at the how a player is ranked within their club when they simply need bodies for a session.  If you’ve been to any club in Europe and observed training you’d see it.  Heck, go to your local mls club and you’ll see the same thing.  Kids get used as pylons a lot.  You’re just really over-thinking things.  
 

Regarding wages… what’s farfetched?  Do you happen to know the economics of what top prospects can earn in clubs like that?   It’s not a cash strapped club.  What’s the single biggest issue that prevents a transfer from happening?  Money.  It’s a club with resources, he was a top youth international and one that had options.  The club signed him to a 5-6 year deal, for example say the salary is in the realm of $200k-$250k euros, who knows what Sporting is asking to get him out?  It’s not farfetched to think what they are asking is not something attractive to other clubs (maybe they won’t cover full wages, maybe the purchase option isn’t realistic with so many years left on the contract, maybe teams have no confidence because he’s not playing at ANY level.)

Those Scottish teams he was rumoured with are definitely not going to cover those wages.  No team in Portugal outside the big 4 can afford that.  Netherlands, outside the big 4 forget it.  Maybe the MLS would be willing to.  What else are you left with? 

Also, we don’t know what the players expectations were about an exit.  Has he been realistic?  Does he have poor advisors?  These situations are common all across Europe.  

Can you name a single example of players who are on the "outs" that get called up to first team training? Im not saying kids dont get call ups. However, it is not the player you are actively trying to get rid of. Then lets add some context. Its right before a big europa league game and theyve called up top prospects besides dias. Nothing about that says that hes on the "outs". 

As for wages of first team players (In euros)https://thesundayathletes.com/salaries/sporting-lisbon-players-salary/
essugo-92k per year
paulinho- 111k per year
reis 131k per year 

Are you trying to tell me that dias at 17 signed a contract worth double what essugo, paulihno and reis make? 

Theres no way. Your numbers are astronomically off to try and make a point thats not actually true. 

You also talk about the transfer fee. If sporting asked too high of a fee from hearts, that means they value him. Otherwise they would just try to dump him..... especially if his wages are as high as you think.  

[Footyeh]

18 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Can you name a single example of players who are on the "outs" that get called up to first team training? Im not saying kids dont get call ups. However, it is not the player you are actively trying to get rid of. Then lets add some context. Its right before a big europa league game and theyve called up top prospects besides dias. Nothing about that says that hes on the "outs". 

As for wages of first team players (In euros)https://thesundayathletes.com/salaries/sporting-lisbon-players-salary/
essugo-92k per year
paulinho- 111k per year
reis 131k per year 

Are you trying to tell me that dias at 17 signed a contract worth double what essugo, paulihno and reis make? 

Theres no way. Your numbers are astronomically off to try and make a point thats not actually true. 

You also talk about the transfer fee. If sporting asked too high of a fee from hearts, that means they value him. Otherwise they would just try to dump him..... especially if his wages are as high as you think.  

I don’t know what to tell you when you send me a website that somehow has all the correct salaries of Sporting players lol.

Let’s give you a local example from Vancouver.  They’re a certain CB on a Homegrown contract (I won’t say his name), he was continuously left out many match days with the MLS Next Pro team this past season…. Where was he?  Most of the time In 1st team training standing off to the side and used sparingly.  Why would Vancouver do that when he could get regular competitive minutes?  Do you think they have a plan for him?  Do you think this is a sign they rate him?  What will you say if/when he gets released next month?  

[Bigandy]

11 minutes ago, Footyeh said:

I don’t know what to tell you when you send me a website that somehow has all the correct salaries of Sporting players lol.

Let’s give you a local example from Vancouver.  They’re a certain CB on a Homegrown contract (I won’t say his name), he was continuously left out many match days with the MLS Next Pro team this past season…. Where was he?  Most of the time In 1st team training standing off to the side and used sparingly.  Why would Vancouver do that when he could get regular competitive minutes?  Do you think they have a plan for him?  Do you think this is a sign they rate him?  What will you say if/when he gets released next month?  

Here is a second link to confirm the wages. https://sillyseason.com/money/salary/sporting-cp-players-salaries-129987/

If you wont say his name then theres no way to prove what youre saying.  What an absurd example. Why would you not release his name.  This sounds like such a lie.... 

[Footyeh]

9 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Here is a second link to confirm the wages. https://sillyseason.com/money/salary/sporting-cp-players-salaries-129987/

If you wont say his name then theres no way to prove what youre saying.  What an absurd example. Why would you not release his name.  This sounds like such a lie.... 

We’re going to go in circles on this salary thing aren’t we.  Here’s a link to Burnley’s salaries from “Capology”, another one of the websites I’m sure you were going to cite soon enough.  Koleosho’s wages are far off.  Actually I’m pretty sure his salary was even discussed on this forum a month or so back.  You can go find it, and check my credibility on him.

There’s only 3 young HG on the entire Vancouver roster lol, one of which is a CB.  Believe it, don’t believe, doesn’t really matter to me.  Find the player check the stats from this year and you’ll see yourself…. Your HG’s are supposed to be your top young players, unless injured (which the player wasn’t) it doesn’t make any sense for them to not be playing, especially when they are being paid a lot.  In a month or so when roster decisions come out you’ll also see.  

Edited October 5, 2023 by Footyeh

[Xavier.]

13 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Here is a second link to confirm the wages. https://sillyseason.com/money/salary/sporting-cp-players-salaries-129987/

If you wont say his name then theres no way to prove what youre saying.  What an absurd example. Why would you not release his name.  This sounds like such a lie.... 

Matteo Campagna

[narduch]

7 minutes ago, Xavier. said:

Matteo Campagna

Seems to be heading along the same career path as his brother 

[Bigandy]

18 minutes ago, Xavier. said:

Matteo Campagna

Cant be campagna. Hes already matched last years total minutes in mls 2 in 3 fewer games.... 

 

22 minutes ago, Footyeh said:

We’re going to go in circles on this salary thing aren’t we.  Here’s a link to Burnley’s salaries from “Capology”, another one of the websites I’m sure you were going to cite soon enough.  Koleosho’s wages are far off.  Actually I’m pretty sure his salary was even discussed on this forum a month or so back.  You can go find it, and check my credibility on him.

There’s only 3 young HG on the entire Vancouver roster lol, one of which is a CB.  Believe it, don’t believe, doesn’t really matter to me.  Find the player check the stats from this year and you’ll see yourself…. Your HG’s are supposed to be your top young players, unless injured (which the player wasn’t) it doesn’t make any sense for them to not be playing, especially when they are being paid a lot.  In a month or so when roster decisions come out you’ll also see.  

So you think its more likely that my stats from 2 sources are so incredibly off that dias at 17 was making more than double what first team players make based on my sources? 

Its surely not campagna. 
Stats: Hes matched last seasons minutes in 3 fewer games
again you talk about wages. Are you suggesting campagna is also paid alot? 

EDIT: Also, if hes signed a HG contract, hes a first team player. Of course he's training with the first team.  The comparison would be a youth player training with the first team. Not a young player with a first team contract. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Bigandy

[Footyeh]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Cant be campagna. Hes already matched last years total minutes in mls 2 in 3 fewer games.... 

 

So you think its more likely that my stats from 2 sources are so incredibly off that dias at 17 was making more than double what first team players make based on my sources? 

Its surely not campagna. 
Stats: Hes matched last seasons minutes in 3 fewer games
again you talk about wages. Are you suggesting campagna is also paid alot? 

13 games out of a possible 27.  Two he didn’t even get off the bench.  That’s good to you?  

Per the MLSPA, he makes $95,000 usd this year.  Your sources are saying a top European prospect like Essugo in sporting is making less than a HG in Vancouver?  

[Xavier.]

8 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Cant be campagna. Hes already matched last years total minutes in mls 2 in 3 fewer games.... 

 

So you think its more likely that my stats from 2 sources are so incredibly off that dias at 17 was making more than double what first team players make based on my sources? 

Its surely not campagna. 
Stats: Hes matched last seasons minutes in 3 fewer games
again you talk about wages. Are you suggesting campagna is also paid alot? 

Half the matches he wasn’t in the 18. Someone like Lazar Stefanovic has double his mins. 

[Bigandy]

49 minutes ago, Footyeh said:

13 games out of a possible 27.  Two he didn’t even get off the bench.  That’s good to you?  

Per the MLSPA, he makes $95,000 usd this year.  Your sources are saying a top European prospect like Essugo in sporting is making less than a HG in Vancouver?  

I never said its good.  But playing 50% of the games doesnt sound like they are trying to get rid of him. However, the biggest stat is that hes playing more min this year than last. THAT is the reason why he is not on the outs IMO. However, hes on a first team contract. Its not relelvant to use him as an example. Of course hes going to train with the first team if he has a first team contract. 

You need to use an example of someone who is not a first team player and is called up to first team trainign, while the club is actively looking to cut ties.  Thats the accurate comparison. 

Also, I never said essugo was making less. His salary is in euros as per my post.  Also campagna is making 85k base salary and another 10k elsewhere. So a more accurate apples to apples would be 85k for campagna. 135k for essugo. Campagna makes 60% of what essugo makes in a league that has a minimum salary.   That sounds about accurate to me.