CPL General

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Oranje said:

This is how I see everything shaking out in light of today's news. In it's infancy, I'd assume they'd be super cognoscente of travel costs for the 2nd division so I see it being 2 separate but equal divisions, each of who's champion would be in a playoff to play last place in the CPL. The feeder leagues would go through a similar process, however, 2 teams would have the opportunity to be promoted.

I really like this, but I don't know if regional Atlantic and prairie leagues are viable due to travel.

For example, a CPL2 West division and the Prairie league would almost surely spend the same amount of time and money on travel. 

I do like the idea of a CPL2 East and CPL2 West, but underneath that I would suggest an Alberta league instead of a Prairie league. Out east I would scrap the Atlantic league altogether, or at best revive the Maritime league, but that failed for a reason..

So four regional leagues: Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and BC

Question then becomes: what happens when Newfoundland FC gets relegated from CPL2 East? Shoving them in the Quebec regional league just complicates the travel, and travel is why we don't have an Atlantic regional league in the first place...

I think a national CPL1 and CPL2 can have pro-rel relatively seamlessly, but pro-rel on the regional level will be complicated.

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Obinna

[dyslexic nam]

I won't pretend to be an expert on all things Atl soccer, but the way things have shaped up here over the decade or so, we aren't that far away from an Atlantic, or at least Maritime, division (if you take the top tier of amateur soccer - the various premier divisions - as potential fodder for an Atl feeder league).

Last year, PEI's top team played in the NB Premier League, and a decade ago our top team was playing in the NS Premier league.   With the right incentive - and I think a formalized relationship with CPL could potentially provide it - I could see the various provincial associations organizing a top tier structure that could serve the same regional function for Atlantic Canada that is contemplated in the draft org chart proposed above.  

[Complete Homer]

15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Question then becomes: what happens when Newfoundland FC gets relegated from CPL2 East? Shoving them in the Quebec regional league just complicates the travel, and travel is why we don't have an Atlantic regional league in the first place...

Works for the QMJHL? 

Alternatively I think they would just have to accept a certain level of flexibility with how the lower levels work in different regions. Maybe in the maritimes you have each regions top existing amateur leagues send their teams to a champion, and offer a spot to the winner to the interleague playoff. If they win they have to option to be promoted, on the condition that they are able to meet certain financial targets. Obviously it would lead to the team not actually getting promoted the majority of the time without an angel investor appearing, but I believe there's lower european divisions that work like this. You can get promoted on merit but you have to prove you won't be folding mid season, and if you can't prove that you stay where you are

Edited November 14, 2018 by Complete Homer

[Obinna]

Just now, Complete Homer said:

Works for the QMJHL? 

Alternatively I think they would just have to accept a certain level of flexibility with how the lower levels work. Maybe in the maritimes you have each regions top existing amateur leagues send their teams to a champion, and offer a spot to the winner to the interleague playoff. If they win they have to option to be promoted, on the condition that they are able to meet certain financial targets. Obviously it would lead to the team not actually getting promoted the majority of the time, but I believe there's lower european divisions that work like this. You can get promoted on merit but you have to prove you won't be folding mid season, and if you can't prove that you stay where you are

It works for the QMJHL because they have much larger budgets for travel. The revenue of those junior hockey team would be closer the the CPL than to a regional league such as the PQSL.

On the regional level we are talking about, we are talking about bus travel at most.

[Complete Homer]

Just now, Obinna said:

It works for the QMJHL because they have much larger budgets for travel. The revenue of those junior hockey team would be closer the the CPL than to a regional league such as the PQSL.

On the regional level we are talking about, we are talking about bus travel at most.

I hear you. I think the maritimes would require a more creative approach if it is formally included in any future pyramid. Like I said, maybe they give the top amateur side a shot at a promotion mechanism with the knowledge that they probably won't be accepted for promotion without a major backer coming out of the woodwork

[Obinna]

I suspect pro-rel at the regional level doesn't serve any real function aside from appeasing soccer aficionados like us.

Even for L1O clubs, jumping up to a CPL2 East division would be a massive financial undertaking.

There would still be movement in the form of player signings between regional leagues and CPL1 and 2 or whatever. That be good enough I think.

 

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I hear you. I think the maritimes would require a more creative approach if it is formally included in any future pyramid. Like I said, maybe they give the top amateur side a shot at a promotion mechanism with the knowledge that they probably won't be accepted for promotion without a major backer coming out of the woodwork

Yeah no doubt. I think that could work, but I also don't think we really gain much twisting ourselves in knots trying to make it work. 

I think someone else in the thread mentioned that 86% of the country is Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and BC, right? That's not 100% coverage but it's pretty close.

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

Yeah no doubt. I think that could work, but I also don't think we really gain much twisting ourselves in knots trying to make it work. 

I think someone else in the thread mentioned that 86% of the country is Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and BC, right? That's not 100% coverage but it's pretty close.

I agree, though I think the thought of potential promotion would be a driver of interest from the investor side in leagues like L1O, not just soccer aficionados. It hurts the business prospect of the D1 if relegation is a possibility but it increases interest in the bottom end

In areas like the maritimes where there isn't much of a business case for a semi pro team, much less more pro teams, you're probably right that it doesn't make a lot of sense. Perhaps one or two financially strong groups could join PLSQ, just like a few financially strong far flung Canadian teams participate in PDL

[Oranje]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

I agree, though I think the thought of potential promotion would be a driver of interest from the investor side in leagues like L1O, not just soccer aficionados. It hurts the business prospect of the D1 if relegation is a possibility but it increases interest in the bottom end

In areas like the maritimes where there isn't much of a business case for a semi pro team, much less more pro teams, you're probably right that it doesn't make a lot of sense. Perhaps one or two financially strong groups could join PLSQ, just like a few financially strong far flung Canadian teams participate in PDL

Love the discussion that my little pyramid spurred, lots of great points!!

TBF when I was drawing it up, I was convinced that the regional teams wouldn't be able to beat the last place teams in the CPL II. However, if the Morton Tidal Bores™ has beaten the CPL IIs last place team 2-3 years running (after getting through the best of Quebec) but for reasons you've highlighted (finances, stadia, etc) they did not get promoted , I have to believe that someone from Moncton or the Maritimes would get on board. 

[Nerf]

I love all the pro-rel discussion, but it isn't going to happen. 

You'd need at least 20 teams for pro-rel to make any sense, and as I think that a second division needs to be East-West as in Oranje's model, then you'd need 26 teams. I would mean that 16 owners would invest in 6 to 10,000 seat stadiums and all the infrastructure expected of a CPL team knowing that they are not going to get the crowds, tv revenue, etc to pay for it all.

Also, the only way that any of these lower divisions are ever going to be allowed to play in the CPL is if they pay the same entry fees as the seven current teams. Or more realistically, whatever the value is down the road (hopefully significantly higher in the future).

We have to remember that the CPL isn't a charity. There is no reason why the CPL can't grow to 20 or 26 teams in the future. That is my hope.  But to think that any owner is going to voluntarily accept their investment being squandered by going to a lower division with it's lower revenue and lower team valuation is sadly just a fantasy.

[Guest]

^ Agreed, it simply isn't going to happen. Why would anybody in the top division agree to something that could see them relegated? It has happened organically in other places because there were lots of teams with the infrastructure and fan base to play at the top level but we are never likely to face that "problem".

[Alex D]

Exactly. Because when a club gets relegated that's it, it's over. They can never hope to move back up because it's never been done in the history of the sport. 

I'll make the same rebuttal I do every time somebody suggests MLS is incapable of pro rel:

Nobody is taking away their stadiums, training grounds or shares in a sports marketing company. If they get relegated give them golden parachute payments like EPL and give them a fair shot to win their way back up. Second division revenues should grow overtime anyway because it would no longer be completely meaningless. 

Canada isnt a big country, the big cities should have no problem staying in the top 16 or whatever. It's more of a reward for the smaller clubs to play with the big dogs. 

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, dsqpr said:

^ Agreed, it simply isn't going to happen. Why would anybody in the top division agree to something that could see them relegated? It has happened organically in other places because there were lots of teams with the infrastructure and fan base to play at the top level but we are never likely to face that "problem".

...only if the owners are purists which want it too, which unless the league is straight up lying they are interested 

I'm all for healthy skepticism, but I fail to see how "the league 100% is not going to do this thing they say they are going to do" fits with reasonable skepticism. At most a reasonable position would be "it may not happen/they might change their minds once the league is a reality/etc"

These absolutes people place on the league from the outside in are a bit odd

Edited November 15, 2018 by Complete Homer

[Complete Homer]

2 hours ago, Nerf said:

We have to remember that the CPL isn't a charity. There is no reason why the CPL can't grow to 20 or 26 teams in the future. That is my hope.  But to think that any owner is going to voluntarily accept their investment being squandered by going to a lower division with it's lower revenue and lower team valuation is sadly just a fantasy.

They are a business that has identified authenticity as a key differentiation point from their competitors. Despite the consternation of MLS fans, pro/rel is consistently brought up as a factor that interferes with perceptions of authenticity. It could very well be a business decision to pursue some form of pro/rel  

They also have ambitions to be in markets as small as 200,000. I think we all have serious doubts about such markets being able to sustain D1 soccer, but also would have difficulty attracting anyone to minor league soccer. Maybe the business decision is to enable lower tier teams that have something that makes them less "minor", thereby expanding the pyramid and the value of the centrally owned assets of CSB

Those who have spoken directly with owners have come back reporting that they are bullish on pro/rel. That's good enough for me until better evidence arises. I don't think anyone should be dismissing pro/rel as if there are fundamental laws of economics preventing it. There's lots of legitimate reasons why owners wouldn't want to do it, but it they are promoting it as their eventual path forward, the most reasonable conclusion is that there are also reasons they may want to go forward with it 

I'm not even a pro/rel evangelist, I was of the opinion that it was unlikely for the same reason you did until the league stated it as a goal

Edited November 15, 2018 by Complete Homer

[Kent]

39 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

They are a business that has identified authenticity as a key differentiation point from their competitors. Despite the consternation of MLS fans, pro/rel is consistently brought up as a factor that interferes with perceptions of authenticity. It could very well be a business decision to pursue some form of pro/rel  

They also have ambitions to be in markets as small as 200,000. I think we all have serious doubts about such markets being able to sustain D1 soccer, but also would have difficulty attracting anyone to minor league soccer. Maybe the business decision is to enable lower tier teams that have something that makes them less "minor", thereby expanding the pyramid and the value of the centrally owned assets of CSB

Those who have spoken directly with owners have come back reporting that they are bullish on pro/rel. That's good enough for me until better evidence arises. I don't think anyone should be dismissing pro/rel as if there are fundamental laws of economics preventing it. I'm not even a pro/rel evangelist, I was of the opinion that it was unlikely for the same reason you did until the league stated it as a goal

This is what I was going to say but you beat me to it. With smaller markets or second teams in bigger markets to make up the numbers it might be easier to have an annual pruning opportunity that relegation (or relegation playoffs) would give you. The fear of relegation or the hope of promotion can help drive the teams around that level to get better. If the best case scenario happens and the league really takes off but a team (let’s call them, Columbus Crew) becomes a bit of a drag on the league’s ambitions, you don’t have to even think about the PR problem of relocating them (to let’s say, Austin). If/when their results fall enough, a lower tier team with more momentum (let’s say, Cincinnati) can come take their place without any scandal.

P.S. Yes I know Columbus isn’t moving to Austin, but it very nearly happened and maybe would have if not for the bad PR the league was getting.

P.P.S. And I know Cincinnati is joining MLS, but CPL is probably less likely to expand beyond 16 (as they have stated) or at most 20.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Kent

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

...only if the owners are purists which want it too, which unless the league is straight up lying they are interested 

I'm all for healthy skepticism, but I fail to see how "the league 100% is not going to do this thing they say they are going to do" fits with reasonable skepticism. At most a reasonable position would be "it may not happen/they might change their minds once the league is a reality/etc"

These absolutes people place on the league from the outside in are a bit odd

I hadn't heard they had said they were going to do it. I'd be interested in a link if you have one.

I'm not placing any "absolute" on the league, I'm just giving my opinion that it will never happen. Of course I could be wrong!

[Complete Homer]

Just now, dsqpr said:

I hadn't heard they had said they were going to do it. I'd be interested in a link if you have one.

I'm not placing any "absolute" on the league, I'm just giving my opinion that it will never happen. Of course I could be wrong!

Apologies! Definitely something reasonable to be skeptical about without that bit of info

Here is a link...it doesn't say it quite as directly as the one I was looking for, but it makes it clear it's a goal at least 

 

[Kent]

As for the geographical problem of pro/rel at the bottom levels I think basically the regional leagues will just have to be OK with a fluid number of teams. After all, L1O has had a different number of teams each season so far.

So the way I see it happening is that CPL 2 has a floating boundary between East and West. Start in the West and count up half the teams then draw a line. So maybe one season you have London in the West (unfortunately despite, say Kitchener being in the east) and then the next year London could be in the East.

Then for the next level down, if a team from Ontario is playing in CPL 2 West and gets relegated, they still go to their regional league, L1O. So maybe someone promotes out of L1BC and nobody relegates down to replace them. That’s OK, L1BC has a season with 9 teams instead of 10. Likewise L1O has a season with 19 teams instead of 18 (because a team relegated to them and nobody promoted out).

The only problem with this system is if a regional league is short on number of teams and they promote out of the league to the point where they don’t have enough teams to support the regional league anymore. So like L1P (Prairie) only has 6 teams to start, then a few promote and they are eventually down to 4 or 3 teams. I would hope in a case like that they could work out something with a lower level league, perhaps with centralized games in a city centre with the top level city league.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Apologies! Definitely something reasonable to be skeptical about without that bit of info

Here is a link...it doesn't say it quite as directly as the one I was looking for, but it makes it clear it's a goal at least 

 

Close enough. Definitely makes it clear it is something they would like to do.

For the record, my dream CPL is two national divisions of 16 teams with 2 up 2 down.

But the reality is that relegation would mean a significant drop in revenue. When push comes to shove, will the existing teams sign up for that? Maybe, but I can't see it.

[C2SKI]

1 hour ago, dsqpr said:

When push comes to shove, will the existing teams sign up for that? Maybe, but I can't see it.

Is it not the existing teams that are proposing this? What am I missing?

[Watchmen]

28 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

Is it not the existing teams that are proposing this? What am I missing?

The belief among the existing teams that they won't be the ones relegated.

[shamrock]

It's not going to happen, just like it doesn't with basketball, Canadian football or hockey. Forget about it. 

[Gopherbashi]

Do we know how many teams PLSQ will have next year?

I still want them to create my dream of having an L1O-PLSQ D2 superleague.

[Oranje]

15 hours ago, Nerf said:

I love all the pro-rel discussion, but it isn't going to happen. 

You'd need at least 20 teams for pro-rel to make any sense, and as I think that a second division needs to be East-West as in Oranje's model, then you'd need 26 teams. I would mean that 16 owners would invest in 6 to 10,000 seat stadiums and all the infrastructure expected of a CPL team knowing that they are not going to get the crowds, tv revenue, etc to pay for it all.

Also, the only way that any of these lower divisions are ever going to be allowed to play in the CPL is if they pay the same entry fees as the seven current teams. Or more realistically, whatever the value is down the road (hopefully significantly higher in the future).

We have to remember that the CPL isn't a charity. There is no reason why the CPL can't grow to 20 or 26 teams in the future. That is my hope.  But to think that any owner is going to voluntarily accept their investment being squandered by going to a lower division with it's lower revenue and lower team valuation is sadly just a fantasy.

On the walk into work I was thinking about team numbers issue  you posed. \

There was a USport draft this year, but I could see the talent at USport teams opting to try and make a CPL/CPLII team if perusing a professional career is their goal. In 10-15 years wouldn't it make sense to have Men Soccer programs at USport schools go to "club" status and be the foundation for the regional leagues?

Just a disclaimer, in my own experience of University Sports there have to be equal men's and women's teams. If there is enough interest in a new men's team (say Rugby) there needs to be equal interest in a women's team as well as enough funding to support 2 new teams. The men's Rugby team can also opt to play "club" rugby against other clubs without being an official USport team, unsure how that funding works though...

[Ansem]

Seems that no one noticed this:

CPL is now in Ottawa thanks to Ottawa South United Force...

They are stalking the Fury ?