Canadians in MLS 2016 Season

[TRM]

Since Gersh left he has solidified his role as "DM not named Laba" #2 spot. So if we are in the 4-5-1 (4-2-3-1) then he will start beside Laba. The formation dictates when Russ gets on the field.

If Morales is playing deeper to make room for 2 forwards in the 4-4-1-1 like we've seen the last 2 games he will be a sub unless Laba is out or we are ahead and he subs in for Pedro.

Question is move on to where? NASL? That would be a step down for him. He needs to face the competition he does in Vancouver. I doubt he will get that in NASL. Nico has been great for us and yet he doesn't start very often either. It is a tough lineup to crack but that is a good thing.

Given the number of goals we are leaking I wouldn't be surprised to see us go back to the 4-5-1 which means he'll see more time. Over the last 3 seasons he's averaged  1727 minutes/season in MLS games (1777 - 2013, 1969 - 2014, 1435 - 2015) plus he plays the full 90 in all V's Cup games.

Would he get that level of competition playing in NASL? No. Is quality of competition, both on the team and in the league, more or less important than minutes played? I think it is more.

I hope he stays in Vancouver.

[jpg75]

I think he means it's time to ask for a trade to another MLS team or move abroad to a similar level of play. It's obvious Tiebert is a solid MLS player, why would NASL even enter the conversation?

[jpg75]

18 hours ago, Grizzly said:

To be fair though, Aird was not playing because of his red card suspension. But yes the Caps only had one Canadian on the bench, Tiebert, and he stayed on the bench the whole match.

I wasn't shitting on the Whitecaps, i was just agreeing with whoever said that the only reason someone would watch an MLS game over a better quality game is because of the Canadian content.

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, TRM said:

It is a tough lineup to crack but that is a good thing.

Given the number of goals we are leaking...

These two thoughts do not reconcile.

[Free kick]

On May 21, 2016 at 0:41 AM, BuzzAndSting said:

You can't compare anything to the NBA, they have no hard cap and rosters of 14 with league revenue of $15B.  It's also a game where one player can dominate and demand a "max contract." You can't really accurately compare MLS to anything else because the league is a hybrid between traditional NA leagues and traditional football leagues. 

I agree it's staggering, you go back and look at Beckhams teammates and the discrepancy is even higher. I think the Everdivise or maybe Portugal would be a better comparison. But I have no idea of revenues or salary range.

You have to wonder how situations like Seba's or Bradley's play in the room. There was seemingly issues when De Guz came to TFC making 10 times what De Ro made, do Jay Chapman/Mo Babouli/Jon Lovitz resent guys making 75-125 times their salary? It is odd and not something you see in North America.

I think that in soccer one player can make a big difference in the same way that a game changing player can in the NBA.  I always said, with that right type of player on our NT, Canada could be a top team in Concacaf. If you look at past World cup finals and look at second tier sides from south america or europe or even africa, what you will see that many of those sides were riding off of one player or two players.   In the 80's and 90's, look at Belgium with Enzo Schifo. Or Bulgaria with Hristo Stoichkov.  Or Colombia with Valderama. These are just or three that come to mind. You could look at Peru, Chile, Romania and find similar examples.   You could really see their impact when they were playing and when they retired, you stopped seeing their NT's at the world cup finals for while.  

Regarding your second point about the dressing impact.   Giovinco, has had a hand in probably 80% of TFC's goals scored in the past year and a half.   And for the first time in history, TFC made the playoffs.   Whereas when Deguzman was making 7 Mill,  the team was lousy.   He had no impact on the goals against nor the goals for side of the ledger.   In fact, the team may have looked better in those games where he was absent.  That is the kind of things that will create disharmony on any club.  But that is not the case with Giovinco.  

 

[canucklefan]

17 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I think that in soccer one player can make a big difference in the same way that a game changing player can in the NBA.  I always said, with that right type of player on our NT, Canada could be a top team in Concacaf. If you look at past World cup finals and look at second tier sides from south america or europe or even africa, what you will see that many of those sides were riding off of one player or two players.   In the 80's and 90's, look at Belgium with Enzo Schifo. Or Bulgaria with Hristo Stoichkov.  Or Colombia with Valderama. These are just or three that come to mind. You could look at Peru, Chile, Romania and find similar examples.   You could really see their impact when they were playing and when they retired, you stopped seeing their NT's at the world cup finals for while.  

Regarding your second point about the dressing impact.   Giovinco, has had a hand in probably 80% of TFC's goals scored in the past year and a half.   And for the first time in history, TFC made the playoffs.   Whereas when Deguzman was making 7 Mill,  the team was lousy.   He had no impact on the goals against nor the goals for side of the ledger.   In fact, the team may have looked better in those games where he was absent.  That is the kind of things that will create disharmony on any club.  But that is not the case with Giovinco.  

 

I see your point when you give the example of Giovinco. However, to the question "How much a difference one player can make on the result?", if we are talking about winning tournaments, like WC or the UCL, I believe the answer is that in today's football, an individual has less influence than years ago, due to the fact that the sport is more professionalized than ever before, and I don't believe that you can win a big tournament only with the best player of the world.

If we are talking about league matches, I agree that a player like Giovinco will definitely help the team, but win the playoffs is another story. A few years ago, when I complained about TFC relying only on Giovinco, there was a poster that gave me the the counterargument of Messi winning UCL finals with Barcelona, while I was making reference to TFC league matches. The two situations just don't compare IMO. 

As for comparing basketball with football, I'd say a player will have more influence in a basketball game due to the fact the field is smaller and also the number of players on the field is lower than in football.

[C2SKI]

4 hours ago, jpg75 said:

I wasn't shitting on the Whitecaps, i was just agreeing with whoever said that the only reason someone would watch an MLS game over a better quality game is because of the Canadian content.

Is this really how people on here feel? How about supporting your local club, and watching live footy?

[jpg75]

23 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

Is this really how people on here feel? How about supporting your local club, and watching live footy?

Uh, that's why I try to watch every Toronto FC game on TV and used to go to as many games as i could when i still lived in Toronto. I could care less about Vancouver if they don't have a Canadian on the field (but i still watched the 2nd half after the Copa final was over). Now, this morning i flipped around and found a replay of the Orlando-Montreal game and watched the second half because the Impact had 2/3 Canadians on the field and Larin was on the other team. 

[TRM]

5 hours ago, El Hombre said:

These two thoughts do not reconcile.

Yes they do.

It is a tough lineup to get into the starting 11 on. We would be second in the east behind only Philly on a PPG basis. As it is we are in the west and in 6th.

We are allowing a lot more goals against than we were last year so by last year's standard (tied for best in the league in GA) we are leaking goals. Third in the league in goals for and tied for last in goals against. Need to do better on the latter.

Like I said I think we'll revert to the 4-5-1 to fix the defensive problems especially with Waston away and then suspended when he gets back. We've allowed 7 in the last 2 games when we went with the 4-4-1-1. I predict Russ will start against Houston, Ottawa (twice) and New England.

[shermanator]

4 hours ago, C2SKI said:

Is this really how people on here feel? How about supporting your local club, and watching live footy?

I can say that the primary reason I watch MLS or NASL is because they have Canadians in the lineup. Given that none of the professional clubs in Canada are my local, I don't really have a reason to support them other than the fact that there are Canadians on the club. In fact, I have tuned in to MLS games, not seen any Canadians in the line up, and changed the channel. If I want to watch foreign players, I'm going to watch the best in the world, not a bunch of journeymen from the US or Ghana or Brazil or Argentina or France, etc. I am sure I am in the minority though.

Regarding "supporting your local", that phrase really means something different in Canada than in the rest of the world. Are any of our professional clubs truly local, in the sense that they have players, coaches, and club officials from the area? Or are they just local in the sense that they carry the name of the city? Say, in comparison to an Athletic Bilbao, who take the "local club" mantra to the other extreme when players must be born or trained in the Bilbao region. Two completely different concepts in my mind. 

For other clubs in Canada that are more local in this sense, does anyone outside of the soccer parent care about that? As an example, our PDL club in Calgary is more of a local club, where the majority of players, coaches and club officials are born and/or developed in Calgary. However, I don't know of many Calgary V's who have actually showed up to watch our local PDL club thus far. I'm not trying to shame then into doing so, but just using it as an example of how having live soccer in your city does not correlate to getting butts in seats, even with the hardcore fans. 

[Bison44]

5 hours ago, C2SKI said:

Is this really how people on here feel? How about supporting your local club, and watching live footy?

This is exactly how I feel.  For me there is no comparable local clubs, or live footy.  Watching the local high school team or driving 10 hours to find a NASL match are not real options for me.  Although my local HS team is very entertaining, GO GOLDEN BEARS!!  When i watch the 3MLS teams  I am looking for CDN content.   I am not a hard core fan of any of the 3MLS squads.  I now find myself addicted to watching USL games on youtube.  The games aren't that bad and even Van2 has the acceptable amount of CDN's playing this year.  Although Montreal is hard to watch, they are very poor.  If there was a CPL, with a decent standard of play I wouldn't watch another MLS game that didn't have CDN players in it.  

[C2SKI]

Fair enough. It just seems like if you support an MLS club, you might also have a little interested in the other games within that league. Those games can simply effect standings, but may also provide insight into tactics, players, team weaknesses, and many other things that  might make watching your own team more interesting. Many Canadians seem very invested in a club while having no interest in the league as a whole. I hope that changes once we have our own league, but I'm not sure it will. I'll agree that I certainly follow teams fielding Canadians more closely than any others.

[BearcatSA]

On May 22, 2016 at 7:00 AM, aloyol said:

Wandrille had an uneven game. Made some great defensive plays but was caught napping a couple of times as well.

I like Bekker. Played a solid game with good passing in the middle. Keep things simple.

My assessment as well, especially with Lefevre.  He was good on some highlight reel type of plays but shaky in other areas.  Bekker playing alongside Donadel did what he does best, keep the possession rolling.  He was steady out there.

I don't know how you and others feel here but I hold my breath when Tissot is in defensive situations as an fullback.  

[Macksam]

18 hours ago, C2SKI said:

Is this really how people on here feel? How about supporting your local club, and watching live footy?

Yes,

Why would I watch a bunch of crappy foreigners play when I can watch much better ones on TV. Considering MLS is a low budget, developmental league in all honesty, it should have domestic (mainly young) players comprising the majority of their rosters. Now, for the US based sides, that is the case for the most part when it comes to domestics (not so much the young part). However, for us, it's a different story. I wouldn't have an issue with the majority of the lineup being foreigners if we had a 40 to 50 million dollar budget, being on the level of Porto or Benfica. In that case, I'd be the happiest mofo on the face of planet earth. I'd be cool with it because the majority of our top talent would stay here to develop, and more importantly, more of our top athletes would stay in the sport. I truly believe we would actually have a lot more domestic talent break through if we had a local team of that magnitude than what we currently have because of the aforementioned reasons. 

I'm derailing a lot of threads lately

[C2SKI]

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

Yes,

Why would I watch a bunch of crappy foreigners play when I can watch much better ones on TV. Considering MLS is a low budget, developmental league in all honesty, it should have domestic (mainly young) players comprising the majority of their rosters. Now, for the US based sides, that is the case for the most part when it comes to domestics (not so much the young part). However, for us, it's a different story. I wouldn't have an issue with the majority of the lineup being foreigners if we had a 40 to 50 million dollar budget, being on the level of Porto or Benfica. In that case, I'd be the happiest mofo on the face of planet earth. I'd be cool with it because the majority of our top talent would stay here to develop, and more importantly, more of our top athletes would stay in the sport. I truly believe we would actually have a lot more domestic talent break through if we had a local team of that magnitude than what we currently have because of the aforementioned reasons. 

I'm derailing a lot of threads lately

Because by watching the crappy foreigners playing in Canada you at least know that you're supporting the clubs that are working the hardest to promote the game in this country and develop those Canadian players that you so dearly support. Anyways, I wasn't intending to be argumentative, I was just curious about the overall mentality on these boards. I also follow bigger leagues around the world, and I've watched far more live matches scattered throughout Latin America and Europe than I've ever watched of MLS matches.

[BuzzAndSting]

21 hours ago, Free kick said:

I think that in soccer one player can make a big difference in the same way that a game changing player can in the NBA.  I always said, with that right type of player on our NT, Canada could be a top team in Concacaf. If you look at past World cup finals and look at second tier sides from south america or europe or even africa, what you will see that many of those sides were riding off of one player or two players.   In the 80's and 90's, look at Belgium with Enzo Schifo. Or Bulgaria with Hristo Stoichkov.  Or Colombia with Valderama. These are just or three that come to mind. You could look at Peru, Chile, Romania and find similar examples.   You could really see their impact when they were playing and when they retired, you stopped seeing their NT's at the world cup finals for while.  

Regarding your second point about the dressing impact.   Giovinco, has had a hand in probably 80% of TFC's goals scored in the past year and a half.   And for the first time in history, TFC made the playoffs.   Whereas when Deguzman was making 7 Mill,  the team was lousy.   He had no impact on the goals against nor the goals for side of the ledger.   In fact, the team may have looked better in those games where he was absent.  That is the kind of things that will create disharmony on any club.  But that is not the case with Giovinco.  

 

I don't agree that one player can influence a game or team in football the same way one player can influence a game or carry a team in the NBA. What guys like MJ, Kobe, Lebron and now Steph Curry have done is just statistically mind boggling, they reinvented how the game was played with each new generation, the same can't be said for soccer. It's just one example but look at Ronaldo, he's been arguably the best player in the world at times yet he's never had major international success even being surrounded by decent Portuguese squads.

As for the dressing room issues at TFC I totally agree. Gio is a much better player on a much better team the De Guz but that doesn't mean the scrubs making $50K are okay with his salary. I don't have any personal insight into the current state of emotions at the club but it's quite possible then even with Gio being a great player on a team with mediocre success recently that there are issues. Humans and especially professional athletes aren't always the most rational thinkers. 

[BearcatSA]

On May 22, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Gian-Luca said:

Chapman the first 45 before he's subbed for Osorio for the 2nd half as Toronto draw 0-0 at home against Columbus.

Neither was very good, imo.  I didn't watch the NYC match where Johnson apparently played well but on Saturday he was pretty meh overall and got caught in possession a couple of times.  Taking account of the injury situation (Cheyrou, Delgado), as much as some people rag on Bradley's performance I sense the club may struggle in this area of the pitch while he's away and it will have effects with both the back line and attacking support.  Hopefully, key guys will consistently step it up and do the job.

[BearcatSA]

22 hours ago, Free kick said:

Regarding your second point about the dressing impact.   Giovinco, has had a hand in probably 80% of TFC's goals scored in the past year and a half.   And for the first time in history, TFC made the playoffs.   Whereas when Deguzman was making 7 Mill,  the team was lousy.   He had no impact on the goals against nor the goals for side of the ledger.   In fact, the team may have looked better in those games where he was absent.  That is the kind of things that will create disharmony on any club.  But that is not the case with Giovinco. 

This.  Definitely this.

I have a different take on this from a personal workplace perspective in that it's the discrepancy in pay checks between guys who have similar skill sets that cause as much or even more resentment.  The team's paying some pretty high salaries for guys who are essentially role players (which is what I thought happened in the JDG scenario):  for example, there is a lot of money tied up in two starting fullbacks.  Is Beitashour really worth that kind of money?  How about Perquis on a DP cap hit while the guy who looks to be the leader of the back line, Moor, took a pay cut to play here? 

[Keegan]

On May 23, 2016 at 7:03 PM, jpg75 said:

I think he means it's time to ask for a trade to another MLS team or move abroad to a similar level of play. It's obvious Tiebert is a solid MLS player, why would NASL even enter the conversation?

Exactly, I feel Vancouver is taking advantage of the fact he is so loyal to them.  He's the token Canadian/residency homegrown that they can point to when it's convenient and meanwhile they use him as a squad player.  Some guys are fine with that, especially playing for a team that they love but I think it's time to move on and solidify himself as not just a rotation player but a key player either in MLS or a similar league overseas.  His stock has dropped drastically in the past few years.  

[TRM]

Teibert is not a token anything. Nobody is kept around as a token. This is pro sports.

He is a good player and has made the gameday 18 every game when he wasn't injured. He has some great qualities but seems to have plateaued at the 18 level. Hopefully he keeps working and starts cracking the starting 11. 

You have to ask yourself if you were in his shoes "why would I move?". From residency to on the roster to gameday 18 and making $115k to $180k a year. You are in an organization that has helped develop you, pays you great and has plans for you as they have given you a contract extension just 2 years ago. There is no guarantee that if he moves he will be a starter any more than others who have left. Unless he goes to a lower level which would be undesirable from all angles.

He is 23 and may move on at some point but he may also break out of his plateau and get more starts where he is.

[Macksam]

7 hours ago, C2SKI said:

Because by watching the crappy foreigners playing in Canada you at least know that you're supporting the clubs that are working the hardest to promote the game in this country and develop those Canadian players that you so dearly support.

They (the league takes the majority of the blame to their defense) are going about it the wrong way. So I'm not going to watch unless there are young Canadians playing, which happens sometimes so I do tune in when it does, or this league decides to finally become top quality.

[Gian-Luca]

7 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Neither was very good, imo.  I didn't watch the NYC match where Johnson apparently played well but on Saturday he was pretty meh overall and got caught in possession a couple of times.  Taking account of the injury situation (Cheyrou, Delgado), as much as some people rag on Bradley's performance I sense the club may struggle in this area of the pitch while he's away and it will have effects with both the back line and attacking support.  Hopefully, key guys will consistently step it up and do the job.

They were both fairly anonymous but neither hurt the team either with silly giveaways (which many of the back five were guilty of on this occasion). I found that both non-Bradley midfielders (or all three when Endoh came off the bench) were largely being by-passed in this game, which I think is partly a consequence of the 5-3-2 format that Vanney said he employed because they didn't think they had as many as four midfielders who could play 90 minutes on Saturday. They either tried to build through the fullbacks or they would send these long balls hoping Giovinco & Babouli  would win them in the air. On the plus side, I thought Chapman had some nice moments defensively (which is good because its not his traditional forte) where he helped to shut down Higuain, including one time I can recall he got applause from Vanney on the bench.

[Free kick]

8 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

As for the dressing room issues at TFC I totally agree. Gio is a much better player on a much better team the De Guz but that doesn't mean the scrubs making $50K are okay with his salary. I don't have any personal insight into the current state of emotions at the club but it's quite possible then even with Gio being a great player on a team with mediocre success recently that there are issues. Humans and especially professional athletes aren't always the most rational thinkers. 

One might be able to make a case that Giovinco might be underpaid at 7 mill per year.   Just from what i have seen in the stands (occupied seats) this year and in the later parts of last year compared to the year before Giovinco's arrival.  Without hard numbers at my disposal, i am guessing conservatively 6-8k more butts in the seats on average.  Which is important when you expand the facility and add inventory becasue it means you dont have to drop the prices to fill it up.   Then figure that any of those extra 6-8k cant escape spending 10-20 bucks if they just go to the concessions.   Thirdly, I am seeing a lot Giovinco jersey's around.    Do the rough math based just on all that.   

those extra 6-8k fans are not there because of any of those guys that are making 50-60K.   Even they would understand that.

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

They were both fairly anonymous but neither hurt the team either with silly giveaways (which many of the back five were guilty of on this occasion). I found that both non-Bradley midfielders (or all three when Endoh came off the bench) were largely being by-passed in this game, which I think is partly a consequence of the 5-3-2 format that Vanney said he employed because they didn't think they had as many as four midfielders who could play 90 minutes on Saturday. They either tried to build through the fullbacks or they would send these long balls hoping Giovinco & Babouli  would win them in the air. On the plus side, I thought Chapman had some nice moments defensively (which is good because its not his traditional forte) where he helped to shut down Higuain, including one time I can recall he got applause from Vanney on the bench.

There has been some who believe that TFC have been over reliant on Giovinco.   This point has some merit when you look at the number times we have seen in plays where players are just looking for Giovinco on the pitch and not looking to pass to anyone else.   

And  if that is the case, i am fine with it.  But it will mean that a number of others such as chapman, endoh and babouli will not get the same amount of touches in a game.   

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

They were both fairly anonymous but neither hurt the team either with silly giveaways (which many of the back five were guilty of on this occasion). I found that both non-Bradley midfielders (or all three when Endoh came off the bench) were largely being by-passed in this game, which I think is partly a consequence of the 5-3-2 format that Vanney said he employed because they didn't think they had as many as four midfielders who could play 90 minutes on Saturday. They either tried to build through the fullbacks or they would send these long balls hoping Giovinco & Babouli  would win them in the air. On the plus side, I thought Chapman had some nice moments defensively (which is good because its not his traditional forte) where he helped to shut down Higuain, including one time I can recall he got applause from Vanney on the bench.

The guys playing wingback were especially poor and killed a lot of potential build up with giveaways.  The opponents stock in trade of high percentage possession passing and keeping the ball didn't help either.  As for Chapman, he had a moment or two defensively but also had moments where he was outmuscled and he had so giveaways in the attacking third, but he's a young guy and will get better with experience:  his work ethic was good.  I was hoping Osorio would have more of an impact but he was also guilty of a couple of wayward punts somewhere in the vicinty the two forwards.