2016 Red Team Playoff Clinching Watch (aka Toronto FC 2016 MLS season thread)

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

45 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

Don't underestimate the "give me the ball because I say so" factor with Bradley - he is less demonstrative about screaming at his teammates than G he is less demonstrative about screaming at his teammates Giovinco but I believe that he still demands the ball from the more junior members of the team, which is everybody else in the midfield except for him at the moment.  that's not to say that it's all down to Bradley, but that it's a factor which has to be considered.

 To put it another way, I don't recall Osorio playing like that on that stretch where there was no Bradley & no Cheyrou, or even when Cheyrou was there but not Bradley.  And to be fair for last night, it's always a bit more difficult when you're playing against a bunker defence  

couldn't have said it better myself.

I found quite a few players deferring in last nights game.  It's good to want to be unselfish, but there is a limit, and it's important for offensive players to be able to run at players to create chances.  If you're constantly passing and never carrying the ball it's far to predictable to defend.  

The entire TFC midfield needs to forget that bradley exists unless he's in a position that is an obvious pass.  At least if you're going to constantly give the ball to Gio he's going to be in scoring position some of the time.  

[Obinna]

Yeah, Bradley is at his best when he doesn't try to do too much, both for club and country.

I agree with most of what you guys just said here. It's interesting that Chapman is looking much more of a chance creator, while Osorio is looking far more passive. Some of that is due to the selection with Chapman playing more advanced, but even that in itself is surprising. Not a bad surprise or anything, I am glad he's had a chance to show what he can do further forward.

[yomurphy1]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Yeah, Bradley is at his best when he doesn't try to do too much, both for club and country.

I agree with most of what you guys just said here. It's interesting that Chapman is looking much more of a chance creator, while Osorio is looking far more passive. Some of that is due to the selection with Chapman playing more advanced, but even that in itself is surprising. Not a bad surprise or anything, I am glad he's had a chance to show what he can do further forward.

I think Bradley would be best on right side of the diamond. He's not consistent enough at the tip of the diamond. Cheyrou is a better holder. He can run, make passes, and crosses. 

[Gian-Luca]

So the Cooper loan was made official:

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/08/18/toronto-fc-acquire-armando-cooper-loan

 

 

[Michael Crampton]

On 7/29/2016 at 5:14 PM, Trillium said:

Rightly or wrongly I think TFC gets 12 points out of remaining 42 points on offer. 

Totally.

[Gian-Luca]

Except for a blatantly offside David Villa goal to give NYCFC the win, TFC would be in first place right now. However, they are putting distance between themselves and the teams behind them so a historic first home playoff game might actually happen.

[Yohan]

lol@trillium. TFC wins another and Mtl loses 3-0 at home to Fire who hasn't won away in like 2 yrs

[jpg75]

TFC win 1-2 in Orlando! Ricketts and Altidore score for Toronto, Larin scores for Orlando.

TFC now in 1st place in the East with 43 points ahead of NYCFC sitting on 41. Both clubs have 8 games to play. Toronto with 6 of their remaining 8 at home.

[Gian-Luca]

Ironically the move to first place happens in a game where I didn't think they played all that well (mainly because I think Vanney got his tactics wrong to start the game - not sure why he keeps thinking that 5-3-2 is a good option for TFC, they always seem to have to adjust because it's not working) and possibly scored an offside goal to win. As it happened I thought he was offside but they did show one angle suggesting he wasn't. Then again, we may have been owed some good-fortune with the Refs in Orlando.

[Ivan]

Good win,  but after this one, let's hope Vanney ends the Delgado/Lovitz wingback experiment.  Man that was bad.

[jonovision]

On 7/31/2016 at 9:35 PM, Gian-Luca said:

As such, I get the feeling that on Wednesday we'll still see Hamilton (despite not doing too much in his 57 minutes today) start or perhaps Ricketts or Babouli (neither of whom played today) for some squad rotation as I don't think Altidore is close to being able to play most of a match & they are obviously being extra careful with him.

 

Looked offside to me too, even on the replay.

Larin scoring late instead of blasting off the bar would have been a fitting end to the game.

[rob.notenboom]

16pts since July 31.

[Yohan]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

Looked offside to me too, even on the replay.

Larin scoring late instead of blasting off the bar would have been a fitting end to the game.

AR is in perfect position to make the call... it's so close that attacker should get the benefit of doubt

[Gian-Luca]

It is definitely a close one, the other angle (the one we got during the live action) made it look closer to be off - this one makes it seem on.

Then again, perhaps i shouldn't worry because having watched the Impact-DC highlights, the Impact tying goal seems to be another very close call only with about 4 players possible offside on the play. Or possibly on-side.

[Gian-Luca]

9 hours ago, Ivan said:

Good win,  but after this one, let's hope Vanney ends the Delgado/Lovitz wingback experiment.  Man that was bad.

I was somewhat amazed that they lasted into the 2nd half and that it was Chapman who came off at the half instead. TSN reported that he had a slight knock but I am skeptical of that, I think despite their lousy performances Delgado & Lovitz were more suited to playing in a 4-4-2 on the wings than Chapman and Vanney wanted to make the switch in formation so Chapman got sacrificed (as he wasn't going to take off Osorio or Bradley in the middle). Overall I thought TFC's midfield 3 got overwhelmed in the first half by the superior numbers Orlando had in the middle of the park (not helped by Lovitz being invisible in the first half on his flank and Delgado setting up Larin for a glorious scoring opportunity) and TFC were lucky to be ahead, and only were because Giovinco & Ricketts caught the porous Orlando back-line napping. Still, mark of a good team that you can win on the road when not playing your best.

[shorty]

13 hours ago, Ivan said:

Good win,  but after this one, let's hope Vanney ends the Delgado/Lovitz wingback experiment.  Man that was bad.

Not sure if you mean the 5-3-2 or Delgado & Lovitz specifically in that formation, but TFC have yet to lose when they use it: 

4 draws --  Columbus x2, Seattle, Houston

2 wins -- New England, Orlando

(Granted none of those were spectacular performances, save perhaps the NER game, which had Bloom and Beitashour on the wings)

[Ivan]

I am talking Delgado and Lovitz specifically in that role.  Delgado has played well this year further up the field or as a central defensive midfielder.  No issues with him there, but he sucks in a right back/wingback role.  I am not a Lovitz fan anywhere on the field to be blunt. 

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Ivan said:

I am talking Delgado and Lovitz specifically in that role.  Delgado has played well this year further up the field or as a central defensive midfielder.  No issues with him there, but he sucks in a right back/wingback role.  I am not a Lovitz fan anywhere on the field to be blunt. 

Delgado was far better when the team went back to a four man back line and he shifted into his regular midfield position.  Also, that terrible back pass in the first half from where he was as a wing back was on him, for sure,  but was not helped by the right sided back three defender not being in any kind of position to provide passing support.  

Lovitz is a left footed Jacob Peterson type of journeyman (still going strong at SKC, I see).

I'm not a fan of the formation.  There were too many gaps which could easily have been exploited on another night.  If Kaka had any kind of his youthful burst down the left TFC would have been in even more trouble:  he was getting way too much joy out there. 

Finally, I wish that Cyle Larin would use his left foot when he's on those breaks down the left channel and closing in on goal.  That was very similar to his miss in the Mexico game.     

[shermanator]

No mention of the ball dying with Hagglund at RB every time he got up the pitch? He is absolutely terrible going forward. Although he did have one nice cross that almost resulted in an Altidore goal.

[Ivan]

Hagglund is not a RB.  Beitashour (who I must say I was disappointed at the time of his signing, but he has been real good) was rested and Bloom is hurt.

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Ivan said:

Hagglund is not a RB.  Beitashour (who I must say I was disappointed at the time of his signing, but he has been real good) was rested and Bloom is hurt.

Hagglund got skinned on that play resulting in the cross on Larin's goal and then got beaten on a similar play on later in the half.  No, not a RB.

If they want to play 3 and then 5 mids, then they need to have the regular fullbacks as the wingbacks.  Also, there are some different responsibilities involved with being in a back three as opposed to playing in a CB pairing and you could see openings occur because of it.   

From a tactical perspective, if all the key players are healthy the biggest concern come playoff time is if Vanney starts thinking he's too smart for the room and starts make needless tinkers.  My opinion:  all things being equal, stick with a back four.

[BearcatSA]

On August 15, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Gian-Luca said:

Don't underestimate the "give me the ball because I say so" factor with Bradley - he is less demonstrative about screaming at his teammates than G he is less demonstrative about screaming at his teammates Giovinco but I believe that he still demands the ball from the more junior members of the team, which is everybody else in the midfield except for him at the moment.  that's not to say that it's all down to Bradley, but that it's a factor which has to be considered.

When you look at the passes that don't come off (intercepted), it's the ones Osorio forces into Giovinco that stand out.  I think getting Altidore back as an another reliable attacking target helps (Hamilton really improved with his starts in that area but isn't in the same class, imo).  I don't see the Bradley factor as much of an issue in Osorio's performance because most of the passes he gives to him are part of the deeper lying build up play.  

[Gian-Luca]

7 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Delgado was far better when the team went back to a four man back line and he shifted into his regular midfield position.  Also, that terrible back pass in the first half from where he was as a wing back was on him, for sure,  but was not helped by the right sided back three defender not being in any kind of position to provide passing support.  

Lovitz is a left footed Jacob Peterson type of journeyman (still going strong at SKC, I see).

I'm not a fan of the formation.  There were too many gaps which could easily have been exploited on another night.  If Kaka had any kind of his youthful burst down the left TFC would have been in even more trouble:  he was getting way too much joy out there. 

Finally, I wish that Cyle Larin would use his left foot when he's on those breaks down the left channel and closing in on goal.  That was very similar to his miss in the Mexico game.     

I'm not sure how much attention should be paid to the MLS Audi index (I occasionally check it out ever since there was an article indicating that Larin topped it league-wide one week) but I suppose it must say something that even though TFC won, Delgado finished at the very bottom of this index with a whopping -267 points, over 100 points more than the 2nd last player, Mateos of Orlando who somehow managed to rack up -162 points in just 15 minutes of play. I think Delgado has played well enough in previous games that he'll probably retain his starting spot (even though Cheyrou will apparently be fit for the weekend) but another game like that and I imagine he'll sit.

Mind you, I think this index is far more arbitrary than they make it sound (there are no negative points awarded for being out of position, not involving yourself in the play or not positive points for pressure applied causing the opposition to give up possession, for example - and the points system itself is very arbitrary, both in terms number of positive or negative points awarded for each play or the fact that the size of the points depends on what position you play - problematic when its not entirely clear whether someone - such as Delgado - should be considered a midfielder or defender in that first half), the fact that a player on the winning team can finish last by that great of a distance is probably indicative of something not very good. That said, there's clearly a flaw in the system because Kevin Alston (who finished with a respectable +187) for Orlando should have got -4000 points just for the first TFC goal alone - he pushes up the field for readily-apparent reason, making sure that Orlando has no cover at the back in the process and even worse, he's standing at midfield with his hand raised up claiming the play was offside instead of trying to even get back into the play - on a throw-in! Unfortunately there are no negative points awarded for "mentally-deficient play", "running up the field idiotically and putting yourself out of position for no reason" or "not even remembering the rules of the game even though he's a veteran" so Alston's score is thus deceptive. We can only hope the Honduran defense is that stupid so as to allow Ricketts to score a similar goal, but I won't hold my breath on that one......

[Gian-Luca]

5 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

When you look at the passes that don't come off (intercepted), it's the ones Osorio forces into Giovinco that stand out.  I think getting Altidore back as an another reliable attacking target helps (Hamilton really improved with his starts in that area but isn't in the same class, imo).  I don't see the Bradley factor as much of an issue in Osorio's performance because most of the passes he gives to him are part of the deeper lying build up play.  

I think that's what the poster I was responding to was complaining about though (from 3 games ago now, mind you), that Osorio was passing the ball too much back to Bradley in the Houston game.

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I'm not sure how much attention should be paid to the MLS Audi index (I occasionally check it out ever since there was an article indicating that Larin topped it league-wide one week) but I suppose it must say something that even though TFC won, Delgado finished at the very bottom of this index with a whopping -267 points, over 100 points more than the 2nd last player, Mateos of Orlando who somehow managed to rack up -162 points in just 15 minutes of play. I think Delgado has played well enough in previous games that he'll probably retain his starting spot (even though Cheyrou will apparently be fit for the weekend) but another game like that and I imagine he'll sit.

I looked at whoscored.com and he was the weakest of the four starting mids for TFC, but according to that index in previous matches he was one of the better mids for the team.