2016 Red Team Playoff Clinching Watch (aka Toronto FC 2016 MLS season thread)

[Gian-Luca]

7 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I disagree here with the comparison to Endoh. Babouli in the limited time he's had produced far more in terms of creating goals & creating chances. He's the only player on the team that Giovinco has publicly apologized to for squandering the chances that were provided to him by that player (this is Giovinco, the same guy who has regularly publicly screamed at Endoh & Delgado for that matter).

In terms of scoring goals, Endoh has legitimately scored 1, he was credited with another goal that he knew nothing about as it touched his hair on the way into the net from a Giovinco shot from distance. He has zero assists this season in MLS play. Babouli has one official assist in MLS play but was also the leading playmaker for TFC in the Voyageurs Cup this year - he set up two goals against Montreal & one versus Vancouver. If we are to be extremely charitable, we could give Endoh credit for setting up the Cup winning goal by Johnson but  it was actually a woeful ball into the box nowhere near any TFC player that the Whitecaps keeper & defender completely botched. Even if you were to count that, and giving him the goal off his hair that he "scored", he will have 2 goals scored and 1 goal created for three goals created in all competitions, whereas Babouli would have four created goals which still tops Endoh's total contribution despite the fact that by now Endoh has had well over twice the playing time this season.

Endoh has had far more opportunities to create chances than Babouli has and in the past five or six games (since Babouli hasn't played ironically) he's squandered most of them. Every time they have brought him on as a sub to try to get a goal to level the score or where they are a man up, he has been ineffective. Against Montreal he even helped to cost them the game as he didn't track back to cover Piatti on the play, letting him run past him, even though he was supposed to be representing fresh legs off the bench. Ok, it was a rookie mistake, but we are comparing rookies here, and it's about time to give Mo another opportunity when they need someone to play up on right wing instead of Endoh.

 Sorry I forgot that Endoh  also drew the penalty that gave TFC its first goal of the year away back in March.  In fairness to me it was so long ago now that it was tough to remember.  They don't hand out official assists for penalty kicks created, which is another problem with the relying upon official stats.  So that would actually draw him level with Mo using the charitable view that I took, but still with over twice as many minutes played. Even if  you go by official stats across all competitions, Endoh has two goals and no assists Mo has no goals and three assists in less than half the playing time. 

[AvroArrow]

Re:  Endoh vs. Babouli.  Babouli seems to be more of a high energy player that has the ability to take players 1 on 1, though he does occasionally hang onto the ball too long.  He also seems to float more into the middle of the field.  Endoh seems to play more wide out, and if that's your style, you either need to be an effective crosser of the ball or have the ability to cut in to create your own chances (like Robben).  I don't know if Endoh is either of these types of players.

[paul-collins]

Babouli has always been run out as one of the front 2, though.  Would he be useable as a midfielder in the diamond?  (My gut says yes)

I've seen discussion on the subs for Sunday, that Vanney's move was to go 3-5-2 to get wide with Lovitz and Endoh looking like targets, and forcing NYRB to spread wide.  Up until then NYRB had been very compact and played a very high line.  When they spread out in response to the wide threat, there was more room for Altidore to do his thing...  I'm not sure Babouli would have worked as a wide decoy target, as he has played centrally this year for the main club.

I am not a big Delgado fan and I don't really rate his Sunday game.  Zavaleta had a shocker but it was a one-off, he's been very stable this season.

[Gian-Luca]

7 hours ago, paul-collins said:

 

I've seen discussion on the subs for Sunday, that Vanney's move was to go 3-5-2 to get wide with Lovitz and Endoh looking like targets, and forcing NYRB to spread wide.  

I am not sure that they were meant to be just decoys - to spread the field for sure but they each had the ball passed to them in the flanks on several occasions to get into dangerous positions and each time they failed to get a decent cross into the box. Both players plus Zavaleta finished with negative points on the Audi index and while I think the index can be deceivng (for example Delgado somehow ended up with positive points on the day) it's probably indicates something that they finished with negative points even though they were each a plus two (if you were to go by plus/minus). 

[BearcatSA]

On September 19, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Gian-Luca said:

Beitashour had been way up the field (he was the one who crossed the ball at the end line which led to Delgado unnecessarily giving the ball away in the first plac)I don't think it's realistic to expect Beitashour to sprint back the entire length of the field in time to get all the way back into position, particularly since all Bradley had to do was to stay goal-side of Klejstan and TFC would have had the requisite numbers to defend the play (or alternatively, Delgado could have moved centrally instead of trying to mark the same man as Morrow).

So, what was Johnson doing on that play while Beitashour was way up the field?

 

[paul-collins]

15 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I am not sure that they were meant to be just decoys - to spread the field for sure but they each had the ball passed to them in the flanks on several occasions to get into dangerous positions and each time they failed to get a decent cross into the box. 

"Act as" may not necessarily mean "meant to be".  Their lack of quality was sufficient that "decoy" is the best role they could fulfil - but you have to use your decoys as if they are real, otherwise the defence won't take them seriously.

So being a decoy is not necessarily what the intent was.  Spreading the D is what was the intent, and it worked even without them being effective in the finish, because they were effective in at least taking the play wide.

I'm not disagreeing with you in any way on your analysis of the quality, I'm just trying to address their structural impact.

[Dub Narcotic]

Toronto, in general, plays through the middle of most any team in MLS. This is good, because those are statistically the best areas to score from even though the passes and buildup are more difficult. Now, whether this is intentional (I think it mostly is) or due to the lack of quality out wide is up for debate.

[Gian-Luca]

11 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

So, what was Johnson doing on that play while Beitashour was way up the field?

 

It's a good question, because it's difficult to tell as he doesn't seem to get picked up in the cameras on the replays. I had contemplated throwing him under the bus too for not covering for Beitashour on the play (so he was likely more culpable than Beitashour) but part of the problem is that the left sided NYRB midfielder/winger is also not involved in the play so he may have very well been marking him, wherever he was. It's BWP, Zavaleta's man, who scores the goal but the problem is caused by the fact that Zavaleta faces a 2 on 1 with BWP and Klejstan. Klejstan was Bradley's man (not just on the play, but pretty much the entire game) and he was ball-watching on the play, effectively falling asleep and not getting goal-side of him. Johnson's man isn't really involved. He can take some of the blame perhaps by not providing cover but the lion's share has to go to Bradley & Delgado IMO,, while I don't give any to Beitashour on the play (or Bono for that matter).

[BearcatSA]

4 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Johnson's man isn't really involved. He can take some of the blame perhaps by not providing cover but the lion's share has to go to Bradley & Delgado IMO,, while I don't give any to Beitashour on the play (or Bono for that matter).

Most goals have a daisy chain of errors involved, I agree, but when I watched and then re-watched the play my reaction was the same:  where is the right side/open side defensive cover?  If the RB is that far up the field making an overlapping run and cross, it's imperative for the mid on that side of the field to get himself in a position to cover his teammate's vacated spot.  Johnson's job was to cover Beitashour's job on that particular play, which was to provide support to the CB Zavaleta on the exposed side of the field.

Delgado had a poor to mediocre game but I found more of his problems were with chase-the-ball-defending as opposed to staying with the man who passed the ball (i.e. as what happened with Felipe on the first goal), and that's down to a young player trying too hard to atone for a mistake and then not maintaining the team shape.  Needless giveaways happen throughout MLS:  the key thing is to stop a daisy chain of mistakes from snowballing into a goal.

 

[Blackdude]

On 18/09/2016 at 10:03 PM, Gian-Luca said:

It's strange that TFC have somehow officially clinched a spot, whereas Dallas are 5 points ahead of them and haven't - yet the 7th place team in the West only has one more point than the two teams tied for 7th in the east. I can only assume that NE, DC & Orlando have a lot of games against each other and so all they can't possibly get three points for every single game they have left (as otherwise, a team on 34 points with 5 games left should be able to get to 49 if they win them all - TFC only have 47 at the moment.

That's because Dallas has clinched a spot and TFC hasn't. Seattle would need to win out to get 1 more point than Dallas. They would have to beat RSL. RSL needs then to win their 3 other games including one against Sporting KC. Sporting KC can't catch Dallas that way. 

[Gian-Luca]

 The consensus of everybody that I talked to coming out of the stands in the last game was that they wanted to see Cooper start ahead of Delgado for The next game. However his petulant little kick has got him a one game suspension so that's not going to happen this Saturday

[Gian-Luca]

Delgado and Zavaleta moved to the bench against Philly, it is Cheyrou that is taking Delgado's spot. Interesting to see  how that will work with Bradley also playing. 

Chapman and Ricketts not recovered from injury yet and aren't dressed, neither is Morgan. Same three Canucks to start as last Saturday and Babouli on the bench again 

[TRM]

Congrats to TFC for locking up a playoff spot with 4 games to go. Now go for the highest placement.

[Yohan]

This became all true because of @Trillium's belief in TFC

[Gian-Luca]

I thought the first half of that game was TFC's collective worst, not helped that I don't think that the balance of the team was right with Cheyrou playing on the wing.The  team wasn't sharp or energetic once again to start a match. Hopefully they start to come out flying in the first half of their next home games. I guess getting Giovinco back will help

[BearcatSA]

9 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I thought the first half of that game was TFC's collective worst, not helped that I don't think that the balance of the team was right with Cheyrou playing on the wing.

That side of the field was attacked consistently by the Union, with joy.  He's much better suited for Bradley's spot, with two engine room guys on either side of this diamond formation.  Johnson was poor last night.  Osorio was far better in the second half with his play on the ball, trying to be more direct in taking guys on as opposed to dawdling with it and getting caught in possession or passing it off early:  that's what set up the goal where he took the responsibility to take the defenders on and dish it off to the the open, overlapping fullback as opposed to giving it to Morrow early and having him try to do something 1 v 1.  Neither he nor Beitashour has any consistent shake-and-bake to beat a guy 1 v 1.   

[Free kick]

 I also thought that there were prolonged spots of poor play over the last two games. In that games versus NYRB, BWP missed a gimmie that would have made the score 3-0.  That makes the situation much different than 2-0 or 2-1. They were lucky there.   

The first half was not great versus Philly.  I arrived late because of the transit problems but i watched the first 20 mins aftwwards on line.  These were two home games where only 2 pts were collected.  

 

[Dub Narcotic]

14 minutes ago, Free kick said:

 I also thought that there were prolonged spots of poor play over the last two games. In that games versus NYRB, the BWP missed a gimmie that would have made the score 3-0.  That makes the situation much different than 2-0 or 2-1. They were lucky there.   

The first half was not great versus Philly.  I arrived late because of the transit problems but i watched the first 20 mins aftwwards on line.  These were two home games where only 2 pts were collected.  

 

They are losing the midfield battle against better teams in the East. Not a great sign.

[TRM]

17 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

They are losing the midfield battle against better teams in the East. Not a great sign.

That is bound to happen this time of year. Other teams with fresher mids get their way. That is why it is important to place high and get some rest before the playoffs. Right now you are 3rd best in GA and the only 2 teams better are in the west.

[jpg75]

2 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

They are losing the midfield battle against better teams in the East. Not a great sign.

I chalk it up to tactics, NY and Philly were playing a 5 man midfield against our 4 man diamond. When we switched to 3 at the back and went with 5 in the midfield we were dominating possession. Also, not having Giovinco doesn't help either.

[Gian-Luca]

19 hours ago, jpg75 said:

I chalk it up to tactics, NY and Philly were playing a 5 man midfield against our 4 man diamond. When we switched to 3 at the back and went with 5 in the midfield we were dominating possession. Also, not having Giovinco doesn't help either.

Both of those teams did a lot of high pressing against TFC - Philly may have copied NYRB because they saw it worked, for a time.

The problem is, that those teams - or any team - can't sustain the high-pressing the whole match at such a speed as they get tired, and TFC gradually took the game over in both games in the 2nd half as a result. I think this is why NYRB have had so many games where they have blown leads.

[paul-collins]

13 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

The problem is, that those teams - or any team - can't sustain the high-pressing the whole match at such a speed as they get tired, and TFC gradually took the game over in both games in the 2nd half as a result.

No, I'm sure the reason TFC took over in the second half is because the supporters started cheering.

[shermanator]

Another display on why TFC's insistence on playing mediocre American talent is going to bite them in the ass. Lovitz and Hagglund, Endoh were all terrible in their buildup play. And to be fair, Babouli was poor as well tonight. Hamilton's finishing was lacking as well.

This club is really the Giovinco show featuring a bunch of other players. As he goes, they go.

[Bison44]

I dont know about that, Altidore is a BEAST!!  

 

[Soccerpro]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

Another display on why TFC's insistence on playing mediocre American talent is going to bite them in the ass. Lovitz and Hagglund, Endoh were all terrible in their buildup play. And to be fair, Babouli was poor as well tonight. Hamilton's finishing was lacking as well.

This club is really the Giovinco show featuring a bunch of other players. As he goes, they go.

Injured Jay Chapman seems to be the only Canadian impressing this season...