2016 Red Team Playoff Clinching Watch (aka Toronto FC 2016 MLS season thread)

[TRM]

As much as I love Osorio's dribbling and touch he really has to get the shots on net. Chances are few and far between and squandering 2 with nothing on even on net is heading for Hurtado territory, something I really don't want him in.

[Soccerpro]

34 minutes ago, TRM said:

As much as I love Osorio's dribbling and touch he really has to get the shots on net. Chances are few and far between and squandering 2 with nothing on even on net is heading for Hurtado territory, something I really don't want him in.

Osorio is an awful, simply awful, finisher. He always has been, and I suspect he always will be. He seems to have several highlight reel misses a year.

He's a good player by Canadian standards, but generally can't hit the broad side of a barn.

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

Another display on why TFC's insistence on playing mediocre American talent is going to bite them in the ass. Lovitz and Hagglund, Endoh were all terrible in their buildup play. And to be fair, Babouli was poor as well tonight. Hamilton's finishing was lacking as well.

Lovitz was the worst player on the field although he Did earn what should have been given as a PK. Endoh, while poor again tonight, isn't American, as far as I know, though I know he went to college there. Hamilton played well and I thought looked better off the bench than he had the last couple of starts. I am not sure why Hagglund is being singled out he was ok and not the reason they lost. Babouli started off well but unfortunately earned the ire of Vanney after he tried to back flick the ball to himself on his own side of centre which ultimately  led to the corner that DC scored on. He was not going to start the next game anyway when Giovinco is back but  I could see him not making the 18 again this year after that one play. That said, there was a heck of a lot of other mistakes (including two players doing their best to keep DC on side and about four unsuccessful attempts to clear) that happened after possession was lost. Vanney said he was also pissed at the entire back four for the second goal but the play made me wonder if TFC might actually be better off with Bono in the net.

[Gian-Luca]

52 minutes ago, Soccerpro said:

Osorio is an awful, simply awful, finisher. He always has been, and I suspect he always will be. He seems to have several highlight reel misses a year.

He's a good player by Canadian standards, but generally can't hit the broad side of a barn.

He wasn't an awful finisher his first year in the league when he got 5 goals. I don't know why he seems to have regressed in this particular respect

[Dub Narcotic]

'Mediocre American talent' == anyone not developed by the great and almighty CPL.

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, Soccerpro said:

Injured Jay Chapman seems to be the only Canadian impressing this season...

Hamilton has cooled off but he has made large strides (impressed) this year.  And Osorio has played well at the top of the diamond, showing some flashes of creative play rarely seen (and sorely needed) with CMNT.  His scoring boots sure have gotten lost though.  Its funny because after that first season I thought he had a nose for goal, maybe a bit of a poacher.  But it sure seems to have gone away even as other parts of his game get better.  

[El Hombre]

10 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

'Mediocre American talent' == anyone not developed by the great and almighty CPL.

'Mediocre American talent' = skillfully-immature 23 year old "football" players developed by the tactically naive and athleticism-over-everything NCAA.

Not sure why that is so hard to understand.

[Gian-Luca]

Well Michael Bradley finds the term trending hard to understand in this unintentionally hilarious interview: (about 2 minutes and 40 seconds in):

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/10/01/we-have-be-better-both-ends-field-michael-bradley?autoplay=true

[shermanator]

12 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Lovitz was the worst player on the field although he Did earn what should have been given as a PK. Endoh, while poor again tonight, isn't American, as far as I know, though I know he went to college there. Hamilton played well and I thought looked better off the bench than he had the last couple of starts. I am not sure why Hagglund is being singled out he was ok and not the reason they lost. Babouli started off well but unfortunately earned the ire of Vanney after he tried to back flick the ball to himself on his own side of centre which ultimately  led to the corner that DC scored on. He was not going to start the next game anyway when Giovinco is back but  I could see him not making the 18 again this year after that one play. That said, there was a heck of a lot of other mistakes (including two players doing their best to keep DC on side and about four unsuccessful attempts to clear) that happened after possession was lost. Vanney said he was also pissed at the entire back four for the second goal but the play made me wonder if TFC might actually be better off with Bono in the net.

Endoh has his green card, so he's considered a domestic player. But fair enough, I think he's simply not cut out for this level of play even after impressing early on in the season. 

Hagglund often had the ball on the left side and the ball died on the left side. He is not in any way, shape or form cut out to be a FB, and there is zero reason to play him there IMO. 

I've never been impressed by Babouli, and I found that when he got the ball he tried to do some flashy moves and then botched the play. It's what he seems to be good at. 

Hamilton was decent overall but he did miss his chance at the edge of the box (after showing some good composure to get in that position) as well as a header from in close. Finishing is his strong suit, but it wasn't last night.

[Fastfeet2]

Hagglund is actually very capable of playing RB, he had a 2 goal performance from there if im not mistaken. Upgrade to Eriq'lose focus'Zavaleta in the CB role imo.

[BearcatSA]

22 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Babouli started off well but unfortunately earned the ire of Vanney after he tried to back flick the ball to himself on his own side of centre which ultimately  led to the corner that DC scored on. He was not going to start the next game anyway when Giovinco is back but  I could see him not making the 18 again this year after that one play. That said, there was a heck of a lot of other mistakes (including two players doing their best to keep DC on side and about four unsuccessful attempts to clear) that happened after possession was lost. 

I also thought Babouli looked good in the early stages but his needless giveaways would have drawn the ire of any coach worth his salt.  He had a couple of other blind, first time flicks that got read and intercepted by tracking, supporting mids but I think the play that really broke  the deal on the night was the one where he had Bloom wide open (and I mean, really, wide open) on the right yet opted to dribble across the face of the defence only to force a pass to the left which was intercepted.  Caldwell called him out on that one during the broadcast and rightly so.

Lovitz was the poorest player of the starters, agreed, and he got the hook the earliest.  Osorio has moments where he can look terrific (notably with 1 v 1 dribbling) but then becomes the Invisible Man for too many long stretches, such as from the start of the second half.  Cooper had a strong match last night and I wonder if he should get a shot in that spot for the next match?

[BearcatSA]

12 hours ago, El Hombre said:

'Mediocre American talent' = skillfully-immature 23 year old "football" players developed by the tactically naive and athleticism-over-everything NCAA.

Not sure why that is so hard to understand.

Judging by this thread, there's still interest here in Canadians playing in such a set up.

[El Hombre]

10 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Judging by this thread, there's still interest here in Canadians playing in such a set up.

Don't get me wrong, I have been one of the biggest contributors to the Canadians in NCAA threads in the past.  I love watching them and (hopefully) uncover a diamond in the rough.  However, I fully realize that the talent there is very hit and miss.  A lot of an individual's success in that league can be down to the conference and the coach.  I do not understand how players like Hagglund, Lovitz, and Endoh have been able to translate a modicum of success in that league into a regular spot in the game day 18.  For some organizations there is a cachet that comes with NCAA players that eludes me.  This is particularly true when a player enters the Superdraft as a senior.  Most great players that come out of NCAA leave for the professional ranks early (Larin being a prime example).  To me, a 23 year-old dominating a U23 league that values athleticism over skill is not really a great basis for evaluating players.  Some work out but the vast majority do not, and those that do not are already 3 or 4 years behind developmentally.

Those three that I mentioned above are just three of the latest examples.  There have been a ton at Toronto FC and I would argue there have been just as many of them as there have been Canadian kids that were rushed (ie. for every Keith Makabuya, there was a Matt Gold).  They are however prime examples of the problem.  All three of them played four years NCAA and play their first professional game at the age of 23.  At this point, it is really hard to consider them a prospect.  If they don't have it then, teams need to make a judgement call as to how much they really want to invest to see if they can bring it out.  There are too many examples of this decision being the wrong one.

[shermanator]

52 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Don't get me wrong, I have been one of the biggest contributors to the Canadians in NCAA threads in the past.  I love watching them and (hopefully) uncover a diamond in the rough.  However, I fully realize that the talent there is very hit and miss.  A lot of an individual's success in that league can be down to the conference and the coach.  I do not understand how players like Hagglund, Lovitz, and Endoh have been able to translate a modicum of success in that league into a regular spot in the game day 18.  For some organizations there is a cachet that comes with NCAA players that eludes me.  This is particularly true when a player enters the Superdraft as a senior.  Most great players that come out of NCAA leave for the professional ranks early (Larin being a prime example).  To me, a 23 year-old dominating a U23 league that values athleticism over skill is not really a great basis for evaluating players.  Some work out but the vast majority do not, and those that do not are already 3 or 4 years behind developmentally.

Those three that I mentioned above are just three of the latest examples.  There have been a ton at Toronto FC and I would argue there have been just as many of them as there have been Canadian kids that were rushed (ie. for every Keith Makabuya, there was a Matt Gold).  They are however prime examples of the problem.  All three of them played four years NCAA and play their first professional game at the age of 23.  At this point, it is really hard to consider them a prospect.  If they don't have it then, teams need to make a judgement call as to how much they really want to invest to see if they can bring it out.  There are too many examples of this decision being the wrong one.

To add to this, it's not that all players that are developed in NCAA are necessarily poor, but many that I have watched are. I think Tim Parker is a good example of a recently drafted player that was developed for 4 years in NCAA that will go on to have a good career in MLS.

Lovitz, Hagglund and Endoh don't seem to fall into the same category and in Lovitz and Hagglund's cases, they are into their mid 20's now. While they could end up to be late bloomers, what we see now is most likely their ceiling.

And if anyone wants to consider this a bias towards American players, I think Kyle Bekker could be put in the same category as well, even though I've been impressed when watching him this year.

[Gian-Luca]

13 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

 

 Cooper had a strong match last night and I wonder if he should get a shot in that spot for the next match?

One of the things that I think limits Osorio from being a truly elite player on the World Stage (not that any other Canadian player is in this category, mind you) is his speed - he has a good engine but I don't think he has the ability to accelerate and blow past people - but something that surprised me about Cooper was that he appeared very slow to me on the weekend - both in terms of wanting to slow the game down (at a different pace to his teammates) and appeared to be a much slower runner than I thought. I think this may be why he will drift in centrally so much. I'm not anticipating that we'll see the change that you might suggest, unless Osorio goes back out wide left if Johnson is out again for some time.

Speaking of slow, Irwin was painfully slow in comparison to Bono at getting the ball back in play. He took forever to do that on the play which led to the winning goal, where he missed Altidore with his attempted boot down the field and in fact was the last TFC player to touch the ball before it was shot past him into the back of the net. That's one area where the kid seems to have a one-up on the veteran, and he's also made some better one-on-one saves. I'd be tempted to stick with him (not something I would have said after the SJ game).

[BearcatSA]

4 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

One of the things that I think limits Osorio from being a truly elite player on the World Stage (not that any other Canadian player is in this category, mind you) is his speed - he has a good engine but I don't think he has the ability to accelerate and blow past people - but something that surprised me about Cooper was that he appeared very slow to me on the weekend - both in terms of wanting to slow the game down (at a different pace to his teammates) and appeared to be a much slower runner than I thought. I think this may be why he will drift in centrally so much. I'm not anticipating that we'll see the change that you might suggest, unless Osorio goes back out wide left if Johnson is out again for some time.

Many of the lauded Latin American attacking mids in this league aren't about speed of foot but more about speed of thought and decision making when that window of opportunity comes up, such making that key pass at the right moment to provide service for the striker:  you saw that on one particular first half play where on the second touch where Cooper played in a long ball to Altidore that just was overhit.  I think his Opta rating, fwiw, was pretty high on the night.  Osorio in an attacking 1 v 1 on the flank can certainly corkscrew a defender in a small area before playing a pass but he also bogs down the build up play when he dithers on the ball or he goes through fairly long stretches where he's anonymous out there. 

The club has a couple of games left and as shown with his formation switches Vanney has demonstrated that he's willing to tinker with things, so he might decide what the Panamanian can do in a central role in one of these last matches, especially with Giovinco coming back. 

[BearcatSA]

6 hours ago, shermanator said:

And if anyone wants to consider this a bias towards American players, I think Kyle Bekker could be put in the same category as well, even though I've been impressed when watching im this year.

Of the times I've watched him since the positive reviews he received here earlier in the season, I haven't seen a whole lot different player, tbh.  My sense is that this is an early bloomer as opposed to a late one. 

[Gian-Luca]

18 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Many of the lauded Latin American attacking mids in this league aren't about speed of foot but more about speed of thought and decision making when that window of opportunity comes up, such making that key pass at the right moment to provide service for the striker:  you saw that on one particular first half play where on the second touch where Cooper played in a long ball to Altidore that just was overhit.  I think his Opta rating, fwiw, was pretty high on the night.  Osorio in an attacking 1 v 1 on the flank can certainly corkscrew a defender in a small area before playing a pass but he also bogs down the build up play when he dithers on the ball or he goes through fairly long stretches where he's anonymous out there. 

 

I saw it even more from Cooper on the goal that TFC scored as it was his first-time ball that played Altidore in. But then on other occasions I think there was not the greatest speed of thought - although maybe that was because the players he wanted to pass to were too far up the field so he held on to it - I'd have to re-watch the game, which I haven't done yet due to it being painful enough the first time round. Generally though I think Vanney will have been happy enough with his performance in the spot he did play that he'll keep him there (especially as they still have a first round bye to play for), but with Osorio unavailable for practices over the next few days due to National team duty (something I wish I could have said when we were still in WCQ) maybe he will give it a try. I think much depends on Johnson's health - if he can't go at left mid, that might be the most compelling reason to try Cooper up top of the diamond because Vanney knows Osorio can play on the left side of it and he knows (or ought to know) he is a much better option there than Lovitz. Other than than, the other option to play there appears to be Cheyrou. There's also Chapman to consider as well I suppose, assuming he recovers in time, but he has tended to play at the top of the diamond or on the right (same with Delgado, except substitute top of the diamond with bottom of the diamond - which I still think is his best position).

 

[BearcatSA]

4 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I saw it even more from Cooper on the goal that TFC scored as it was his first-time ball that played Altidore in. But then on other occasions I think there was not the greatest speed of thought - although maybe that was because the players he wanted to pass to were too far up the field so he held on to it - I'd have to re-watch the game, which I haven't done yet due to it being painful enough the first time round. Generally though I think Vanney will have been happy enough with his performance in the spot he did play that he'll keep him there (especially as they still have a first round bye to play for), but with Osorio unavailable for practices over the next few days due to National team duty (something I wish I could have said when we were still in WCQ) maybe he will give it a try. I think much depends on Johnson's health - if he can't go at left mid, that might be the most compelling reason to try Cooper up top of the diamond because Vanney knows Osorio can play on the left side of it and he knows (or ought to know) he is a much better option there than Lovitz. Other than than, the other option to play there appears to be Cheyrou. There's also Chapman to consider as well I suppose, assuming he recovers in time, but he has tended to play at the top of the diamond or on the right (same with Delgado, except substitute top of the diamond with bottom of the diamond - which I still think is his best position).

 

I'm curious to see how Vanney chooses to go.  Regardless of the one game he had at the base of the diamond where he had a good game, I'm not convinced that is Delgado's best position (I just have issues with his possession game there):  to me, he's still the short term (and possible longer term) replacement for Johnson on the side of the midfield because of his engine room.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion on this topic, G-L.

[Gian-Luca]

20 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I'm curious to see how Vanney chooses to go.  Regardless of the one game he had at the base of the diamond where he had a good game, I'm not convinced that is Delgado's best position (I just have issues with his possession game there):  to me, he's still the short term (and possible longer term) replacement for Johnson on the side of the midfield because of his engine room.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion on this topic, G-L.

My pleasure. Incidentally, my theory that Vanney might experiment with Cooper in Osorio's spot during practices while Osorio's away on National team duty is now out the window because Cooper was also called in by Panama. With the number of injured and called-up players they have, the remaining members of the squad might have to resort to training with TFC II over the next 5-6 days.

[BearcatSA]

25 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

My pleasure. Incidentally, my theory that Vanney might experiment with Cooper in Osorio's spot during practices while Osorio's away on National team duty is now out the window because Cooper was also called in by Panama. With the number of injured and called-up players they have, the remaining members of the squad might have to resort to training with TFC II over the next 5-6 days.

Vanney definitely likes to tinker.  I hope for TFC fans' sake he doesn't outsmart himself and screw it up come playoff time.

[gator]

Obviously getting their best player back and in game shape will be important in determining how far this team can go in the play offs, there are other issues though! There is an obvious weakness in the 2nd CB position beside Moor, I don't think Hagglund, Williams or Vanney's nephew are good enough if I'm honest and that is a position where one mistake will change a game! I think Osorio has played the top of the diamond really well creating all kinds of chances for others, he could have had a hat trick of assists vs Orlando last week with better finishing! Although Osorio's misses have been bad at times how many goals have actually been scored by midfielders on this team, there are other culprits! If I was setting up the midfield diamond Bradley and Osorio would stay where they are, Johnson if fit would play on one side with Cooper on the other with Cheyrou ready to be the 1st sub or starter due to injuries! Delgado, Endoh and Lovitz would get nowhere near the pitch, they have all played lots of minutes and to me are just not good enough! As for Babouli, I like his flair, he does things that only Giovinco does but he is prone to errors, he needs more opportunities and it might be getting late in the year for that!

[Keegan]

On October 3, 2016 at 4:20 PM, shermanator said:

To add to this, it's not that all players that are developed in NCAA are necessarily poor, but many that I have watched are. I think Tim Parker is a good example of a recently drafted player that was developed for 4 years in NCAA that will go on to have a good career in MLS.

Lovitz, Hagglund and Endoh don't seem to fall into the same category and in Lovitz and Hagglund's cases, they are into their mid 20's now. While they could end up to be late bloomers, what we see now is most likely their ceiling.

And if anyone wants to consider this a bias towards American players, I think Kyle Bekker could be put in the same category as well, even though I've been impressed when watching him this year.

Anyone remember Kurt Larson predicting that Hagglund would be getting a USMNT call within a year (during his rookie season)?  I never saw anything special in him really, he was adequate from the get go but that's about it.. no better than a 20 year old Attakora on TFC.  I agree that if you're not coming out of the gates at 23 and ready to contribute you aren't likely going places.  Two great examples of players who came out right away and contributed after 4 years of college are Zusi and Besler.  

[Gian-Luca]

Anyone hear if Hamilton got injured while on international duty? Noticed that he wasn't in the 18 against Montreal while Babouli was instead. Also no Chapman for TFC, with only one midfielder (Cheyrou) on the bench - so much for him being out just 3 weeks, it's been 6.5 weeks thus far, unless they simply didn't dress him. Although I believe that Bradley is suspended for the final game of the regular season so perhaps we'll see Chapman dressed next week. The way Bradley played this afternoon, his suspension might be a blessing in disguise to pick up maximum points vs. Chicago.

Looks like a Philly vs. TFC first round match up unless NYFC screw up at home against Columbus, or NE manages to score 7 against Montreal while Philly loses at home to NYRB by 5. Given the way Philly is backing into the playoffs, not the worst opening round match-up. 

[Ivan]

Agree on Bradley GianLuca.  I counted 5 blatant giveaways in the first half.  He took care of the ball much better in the second half.  For Impact fans:  Is Evan Bush really that good, or does he only stand on his head vs. TFC?