De Guzmán Next Year

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If Mo Johnston really was in LA last week negotiating with him that came well after squid2 posted on here about an offer being turned down so it looks at the very least like the idea of signing for TFC wasn't rejected out of hand. I suspect at this point a lot depends on where the actual contract offers as opposed to vague rumours of interest are coming from in a European context.

[earlimus]

Just read this on goal.com:

http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2009/07/05/1364232/report-deportivo-la-corunas-julian-de-guzman-wanted-by

TFC offered Julian the biggest deal but Espanyol and Hamburg are also interested. From everything JDG has said in the past, to me that means no TFC for now, even with the big paycheck. He'd more than likely be getting lots of game time with these two clubs, and they're both fairly big teams in really good cities. Hopefully he'll follow his dreams, not his wallet.

[Toronto MB]

After speaking with him twice in the past couple days, I just don't think he is really considering playing for Toronto FC.

If the deal was in the works for real, he wouldn't have come out and stated that Toronto FC were interested but that he wanted to stay in Spain, or at least Europe.

I would expect Julian to sign with a club in La Liga. And failing that, he will likely sign on in England or Holland.

I could be entirely wrong on this though, so who knows.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In many ways another contract with a mid-table La Liga or Bundesliga team is the low risk stay within the comfort zone option for him. Hopefully he has the cojones to take the challenge of proving he is actually worth the big contract in an MLS context and is capable of being the marque player who can lead TFC to playoff success in the years ahead. It's time that the deeply ingrained notion that serious pro level soccer is not something that happens in Canada is exploded once and for all and it is good to see MLSE trying to make the moves that are needed to accomplish that.

[VPjr]

BBTB, one player coming to this league does not equal people taking the league seriously. The biggest star in the world of soccer came to MLS and essentially reinforced the notion that the league is a bit of a joke. MLS is better than not having a league but JDG in Toronto will do little to change the perception of what the league and the team are all about.

In fact, in the TFC scenario, adding Julian on a DP contract when they already have so many players making over 250K, means that while they will enjoy a talent upgrade, there will be an inevitable corresponding drop off in the depth department. Is the team then really stronger? On paper, yes but injuries or international call ups would seriously decimate such a team.

It has always been my belief that Mo is chasing Julian for self-preservation reasons as much as for team improvement reasons. Julian will definitely improve the club's talent but, more than anything, it will reinforce Mo's currently (somewhat) tenuous position and will boost his profile throughout the league. My dislike for the man is such that I don't want to see him enjoy any success or acclaim. I just want him fired and forced to flip burgers at a Harvey's.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

BBTB, one player coming to this league does not equal people taking the league seriously. The biggest star in the world of soccer came to MLS and essentially reinforced the notion that the league is a bit of a joke. MLS is better than not having a league but JDG in Toronto will do little to change the perception of what the league and the team are all about.

In fact, in the TFC scenario, adding Julian on a DP contract when they already have so many players making over 250K, means that while they will enjoy a talent upgrade, there will be an inevitable corresponding drop off in the depth department. Is the team then really stronger? On paper, yes but injuries or international call ups would seriously decimate such a team.

It has always been my belief that Mo is chasing Julian for self-preservation reasons as much as for team improvement reasons. Julian will definitely improve the club's talent but, more than anything, it will reinforce Mo's currently (somewhat) tenuous position and will boost his profile throughout the league. My dislike for the man is such that I don't want to see him enjoy any success or acclaim. I just want him fired and forced to flip burgers at a Harvey's.

Do they have Harveys in Rio ?

Seriously Mo cant get a job flipping burgers in Rio .. he does not have the skill set, best he be off home to Great Britain to run a chippy.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

BBTB, one player coming to this league does not equal people taking the league seriously.....

20,000 people take it seriously enough to buy tickets every game with a further 14,000 rumoured to be on a waiting list for season tickets so I think that's a non-issue. TFC are already perceived very differently from the Toronto Lynx and the CSL.

I don't believe for a minute that Mo Johnston given a budget in excess of $10,000,000 to spend on a DP of his choice would make a huge effort to go after Julian de Guzman. Odds on he would do what any other GM in MLS would do and try to go after a top goalscorer rather than a holding midfielder. Ideally, that would mean another world famous player along the lines of Roberto Bettega or Eusebio to use examples from the NASL era moving to Toronto in the twilight of his career. That type of signing would also probably be seen as more impressive and exciting by most TFC fans because many will have barely even heard of JDG because they don't follow the CMNT and La Liga all that closely.

I strongly suspect this is something that is coming from MLSE as a strategy to eventually get having a top Canadian player playing for TFC seen in the same sort of terms as a top Canadian player playing for the Maple Leafs. I suspect they are not content to simply provide the stepping stone to Europe for aspiring wannabes and the retirement home for returning washed-up hasbeens that you and many others on here appear to see as being TFC's role where CMNT players are concerned. They probably have much higher ambitions for the TFC "brand" than that because they have an NHL and NBA type mindset where North America rather than Europe is seen as the centre of the action.

[Ivan]

VPjr, I respect your opinion on most matters, but calling MLS a joke is way too harsh. It has a way to go, sure, but I certainly wouldn't call it a joke.

Especially when you take every opportunity to pump up the CSL - which I also enjoy and appreciate. Leaves your MLS opinion open for questioning I must say.

[VPjr]

^ Ivan, I didn't mean to say that I personally believe MLS is a joke. I have serious concerns about the way the league is structured and it has a long way to go to get my full respect but its certainly no more of a joke than any other 2nd or 3rd tier fully pro league.

What I was implying was that the Beckham fiasco reinforced the belief that MLS is a bit of a joke among many football lovers (especially those who don't follow MLS or TFC).

[tmcmurph]

I don't see JDG playing for TFC any time soon. I think those who stated that he was playing the TFC card for leverage with the clubs in Spain he really wants to play for got it right. From the recent interview at the Gold Cup Spain seems to be his first choice, then other Euro teams and way down the list MLS. I would love to see it but I doubt it for the next 3-4 years.

Salary is only one part of the picture. All his games and practice in Europe will be on grass. How many MLS teams play on artificial turf? I think there are 5 or 6 at least. I don't know what the endorsements are that JDG has but his potential earnings would have to be more in a soccer culture like Spain than a hockey culture like Canada. Throw in recognition and a bit of fame compared to almost total anonymity.

As for the "Mo hates Canadians" part of this thread. He made some disparaging comments about the available Canadian talent in his first year and his selection of Canadians he would like included Owen Hargreaves. I think that fixed a lot of people's minds.

This year they have brought in a lot of Canadians and with Ali Gerba joining after the Gold Cup I think TFC might be the most Canadian team in North American pro soccer.

I still think they missed the boat with Marcus Haber but in a way I'm glad because he is playing great for the Caps

[Califax]

I hope doesn't play for TFC. He should play for a quality side while he still can. Also, the fact that Serioux and De Ro are with their hometown team is part of the reason that we don't have them for the Gold Cup. So, I'd like to see as many Canadians overseas as possible, so these summer tourney's can bring them come rather than conflict them with club duty.

[TFCRegina]

Half of me wants De Guzman in Toronto. The half wants him in Europe where he's going to be playing against top flight competition.

One half wants a Canadian in the prime of his career to come to Toronto FC and give them the extra push they need to win the Cup or make a deep Champions League run. The other half wants them to forget it and instead sign an academy player and send a message to young Canadian players across the country that attaching themselves to TFC Academy is an opportunity to turn pro.

[Obinna]

He is not going to play for Toronto right now. The offer will be there 2-3 years from now and will probably be at least half of what they are luring him with now, which is still significant money. Guevara still has a couple of years left in him, and at that point I'd like to see JDG come in as his replacement. Jeffery what do you reckon his chances are of signing with Villareal of Seville at this point? Is it more likley he will sign with Espanyol if he stays in Spain?

I wonder what club(s) are interested in Holland....

[Nate]

He might actually get a bigger MLS contract by waiting a couple of years. Remember, in 2011 there'll be at least 2 Canadian MLS clubs -- each of whom can only employ a handful of non-Canadian players -- bidding for his services. That could drive his value up.

The corollary, of course, is that if TFC doesn't get him now, they risk not ever getting him.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Obinna

He is not going to play for Toronto right now. The offer will be there 2-3 years from now and will probably be at least half of what they are luring him with now, which is still significant money. Guevara still has a couple of years left in him, and at that point I'd like to see JDG come in as his replacement. Jeffery what do you reckon his chances are of signing with Villareal of Seville at this point? Is it more likley he will sign with Espanyol if he stays in Spain?

I wonder what club(s) are interested in Holland....

I have not seen a thing since the Osasuna rumours. I wonder if he told his agent to cool it until he got past the Gold Cup. Osasuna is okay, but they are lower level than Depor and I doubt can pay more, probably less.

The Spanish market is in fact slow, in spite of the Madrid signings or maybe because of them, I think clubs want to wait a while to let the artificial bubble created by Madrid to deflate a bit, otherwise all signings would be overblown and no one is in conditions to behave so irresponsibly right now. So maybe clubs like Sevilla and Villareal want to wait a bit before making their moves, I mean there should be a lot of movement but I expect it will come in the next few weeks, when the clubs are getting into preseason.

[VPjr]

^ from what I've heard from a couple of agents, Jeffrey is bang on. The only club willing to open its wallet freely right now is Real Madrid, who are hell bent to avoid being embarrassed by Barca in the 2009/2010 season.

Everyone else in Spain is just wishing Madrid would hurry up and finish signing whomever they want to sign so the market can calm down significantly.

The end of July / 1st week of August should bring a flurry of player movement in Spain.

Even England is quite quiet right now. The Recession is clearly having an effect on European football (except for Madrid apparently)

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

^ from what I've heard from a couple of agents, Jeffrey is bang on. The only club willing to open its wallet freely right now is Real Madrid, who are hell bent to avoid being embarrassed by Barca in the 2009/2010 season.

Everyone else in Spain is just wishing Madrid would hurry up and finish signing whomever they want to sign so the market can calm down significantly.

The end of July / 1st week of August should bring a flurry of player movement in Spain.

Even England is quite quiet right now. The Recession is clearly having an effect on European football (except for Madrid apparently)

The pound has dropped significantly against the euro and that will affect their player-signing power. I also understand there may be taxation changes, but have not read in any detail about that.

The key to this summer is to watch how Milan spends their Kaka money and Manchester United their Cristiano cash. Lyon has money for Benzema, great player IMO, but there are limits to what money can buy for the French league, and to salaries especially. Then it will all start to trickle down and around, here and there, and the little guys will also sort things out along the way.

Julian should of course hang on, as a free agent comes free. And that is something you offer as a plus to your new club in exchange for them giving you very good salary terms. And I am not sure a team like Osasuna can give him the salary that he would deserve for coming free, the key is to go free to a team as strong or stronger budget-wise than Depor economically, debt apart.

[earlimus]

Just to add in my opinion, transfers are very slow right now. There's not much going on and I'd agree with you guys that it's partly to do with the Madrid factor. Wait for one big name to go at a much more resonable price and we'll see more transfers taking place.

Osasuna is a regular in la liga but Julian could do better. I do hope he ends up here in Spain though.

I'm living with my better half here in Madrid for all of July and I must say all of the commotion on Real only strengthens my mild dislike for all things league soccer (outside of our "fair" mls of course) in terms of league equality. 75,000 fans are supposed to turn up at the Bernabeau today for Crissy R's shirt unveiling. Kinda BS when you think that not one other team in La Liga will spend more than what he costs on all of their transactions but together, or that the other 19 teams put together won't spend what Real is this summer.

At least De Guzman will end up at a team that merits some respect.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

Constant minutes is not the point. As I tried to say elsewhere, depth is just as important as having a strong starting 11, moreso in a league like MLS that often has players missing for international duty. Guys like Hemming, Rosenlund and Pozniak are very valuable because they can get slotted in and do a job when required. Also, you don't have to break the bank to keep them around, just pay them more than $17K. I bet both would've stuck around TFC for $50-$60K. And now, when you look at TFC they have very few options for midfield and defence coming off the bench.

For whatever reason, TFC has shat the bed through July and August for their first two seasons. Not sure if that's going to happen again this year, but if it does, would it not be beneficial to have decent subs that can come in and shake up the starting lineup?

But, as in other team sport, having true "depth" means having players who could be called upon to start and deliver comparable quality (or less of a drop off in quality from the existing starters). Could you say that about those players given that other MLS teams had a chance to claim them or retain them but did not?

In my opinion, if you say that we need so and so around becasue you need him on the bench and he can deliver minutes and nothing else, then I wouldn't call that depth. In soccer the best description of depth would be some of the giants that comprise the group of sixteen. Its often said and proven that they keep so much talent on their bench that would easily start for mid table teams. Although that is an extreme example that you cannot replicate in the MLS because of the salary cap, it is none the less what the definition of depth is.

No athlete that I can imagine, would aspire to being a bench player. Hence if those players would have latched and stuck on with a rival MLS squad and managed to deliver quality and minutes that was not apparent or able to demonstarte with TFC, then I could support your argument. But as it stands now, I see no evidence of that. So I will have to agree completely with Loyola, and reserve judgement on whether this is proof of evidence of bias against Canadian by TFC.

Also, dont forget, the GM is not the only guy with input in Player personel decisions. Surely the coach has say. Thats makes the " Mo hates Candaians arguement" even more tenuous.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

No athlete that I can imagine, would dream or desire of ultimately being a bench player. Hence if those players would have latched and stuck on with a rival MLS squad and managed to deliver quality that was not apparent or able to demonstarte with TFC, then I could support your argument. But as it stands now, I see no evidence of that. So I will have to agree completely with Loyola, and reserve judgement on whether there is evidence of bias against Canadian by TFC.

Also, dont forget, the GM is not the only guy with input in Player personel decisions. Surely the coach has say. Thats makes the " Mo hates Candaians arguement" even more tenuous.

I don't think there is a bias against Canadians per se. I do however think there are Canadians available that would address a need on TFC.

I don't think they should be considered exclusively bench players. I believe they would be there to push for a starting place and if a regular starter is slumping, they could be replaced with guys from the bench. There would be a drop off in quality sure, but not as big a dropoff as you are insinuating. It would be nominal in my opinion and certainly not as big a difference in quality as currently exists between the starters and the bench right now (who's there other than Velez, the Ghanaians, Ibrahim and Gala? That's a big concern for me as a TFC fan).

Edit: I meant to add that right now TFC has zero depth and bringing in the guys mentioned (or holding on to them in the first place) would be a fantastic start in fixing that. As it stands, TFC is 1 or 2 injuries away from having serious problems.

The fact that they haven't caught on with another MLS squad has got to be due to other MLS squads having access to a larger pool of players from which to draw from. Bringing in an international to provide cover and maybe play half the games doesn't make a lick of sense to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

And while the coach may have input, if he's the one scouting players and telling the GM to go out and get so and so, then what exactly is the GM doing?

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by Nate

He might actually get a bigger MLS contract by waiting a couple of years. Remember, in 2011 there'll be at least 2 Canadian MLS clubs -- each of whom can only employ a handful of non-Canadian players -- bidding for his services. That could drive his value up.

The corollary, of course, is that if TFC doesn't get him now, they risk not ever getting him.

JDG in a Caps uniform! Now there's a thought that brings a smile to my face

Good point and you need several things to be competitive in your first season in MLS. Just look at Seattle where goalie and midfield were their 2 main signings.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

JDG in a Caps uniform! Now there's a thought that brings a smile to my face

Keep dreaming.

JDG was asked specifically on It's Called Football if Vancouver would have a chance at him in two years, and he said, "nah, I'm Toronto for life." []

BTW, The Score is now saying it's "90% done" and the Fan 590 is reporting that a 3 year, $10 million deal is close to being finalized.

I won't allow myself to get excited until I see him on the TFC website.

[superbrad]

Toronto eyes Canada star de Guzman

http://www.socceramerica.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.showArticleHomePage&art_aid=33054

by Ridge Mahoney, Tuesday, Jul 7, 2009 7:01 AM ET

[MLS] Canadian international midfielder Julian de Guzman confirmed on a radio show Monday that Toronto FC has bid aggressively for his services.

De Guzman, 28, is out of contract following four seasons with Spanish club Deportivo Coruna and TFC has offered him a Designated Player contract, the value of which has been hotly debated on various web sites. However, a source confirmed last month that the club had discussed offering him as much as $3 million per season, which stacks up well with what he earned in Spain, though his salary earnings in that country are net, not gross, with the team paying associated costs and taxes.

What is not in dispute is that TFC has shed significant salaries this season by releasing or trading Greg Sutton ($165,062), Todd Dunivant ($109,974), Rohan Ricketts ($165,000) and Kevin Harmse ($79,200). It also acquired some allocation money in the Harmse deal with Chivas USA and has allocation money left over from previous deals and missing the playoffs again last year.

Just by dumping those salaries and using a sliver of allocation money, it can accommodate the salary-cap hit of $425,000 for a DP, even though its buyout of Ricketts' deal still counts against the cap. De Guzman would only count against the cap for $210,000 for the remainder of the 2009 season if he signed this summer. Dwayne De Rosario is TFC's highest paid player, earning a base salary of $357,000 and the MLS maximum $425,750 in total compensation.

De Guzman has offers from other clubs in Spain, and a French club is believed to be interested as well. The native of Toronto earned Concacaf Gold Cup MVP honors in 2007 for scoring two goals and helping his country reach the semifinals. He is with his national team in Columbus preparing for its second match against El Salvador after beating Jamaica, 1-0, as he ponders his next, and perhaps most important, career move.

[youllneverwalkalone]

^As this potential move seems to be at least partly about the money, let me state my astonishment that Man City can be talking 400k per week for Terry and DeGuzman can't even get an offer for 30k? WTF? He would be a perfect fit at Villa or even, dare I say it, Arsenal?

[Obinna]

I wonder if the french club after him is Lyon? They will have Benzima money to spend after all! I would be happy with him moving there, what do you guys feel about that?