Mathieu Choinière

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

Even with that argument (and I know you aren’t advocating it) an all-action guy like MC would fit well with fast wingers on the break.  He is a guy who will sprint 90 yards at the end of a game to be there for rebounds and cutbacks from guys like Davies and Tajon.  To me that very much compliments the style of game we can play - especially if Staq and Kone are on the field playing a bit more stay-at-home.  

Great point. If we are able to counter attack, you could make the case hes likely going to have more offensive output than Oso would. In a low block its less clear but I do agree with you! 

[costarg]

2 hours ago, RS said:

If you've only been watching CFMTL, sure. But we're talking about Choiniere breaking into Canada, not TFC (who I didn't even mention, by the way) or CFMTL. So the names you should be mentioning are Davies, Adekugbe, Laryea (as a LWB) or Eustaquio, Hutchinson, Kone (again), Osorio.

You yourself said he's been easy to ignore since he hasn't been playing midfield until recently, so why would he get a call-up for Canada, as a midfielder, until now?

 

You're not following.

1- The conversation was Choiniere and Osorio, hence the TFC reference.

2- Choiniere has always been a midfielder, CFM has a packed midfield with loads of talent (sorry TFC) so he had a hard time breaking into that line-up, so CFM started playing him mostly as a LWB.  This does not make him a LWB, it also doesn't put him in competition with Davies, Adekugbe and Laryea. 

3- Choiniere's minutes the past years:

2023: 2121

2022: 1667

2021: 2085

He has played some midfield the other years as well.  You might just be learning about him now, but it was no secret to people who have been watching him.  

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by costarg

[RS]

28 minutes ago, costarg said:

You're not following.

1- The conversation was Choiniere and Osorio, hence the TFC reference.

2- Choiniere has always been a midfielder, CFM has a packed midfield with loads of talent (sorry TFC) so he had a hard time breaking into that line-up, so CFM started playing him as a LWB.  This does not make him a LWB, it also doesn't put him in competition with Davies, Adekugbe and Laryea. 

 

So now I'm not following my own post that you responded to with some weird anti-TFC rhetoric. OK.

Read it again. Choiniere was not considered for Canada precisely because he was an average LWB, which is a position of extreme strength on our national team. It's not MC's fault that he had to play out of position for Montreal because of their relative strength in the midfield, but while he was playing LWB at CFM he would've definitely been in competition with Davies, Adekugbe and Layrea (and Shaffelburg, etc.) for a Canada call-up.

It's only now that Choiniere has shown excellence in an extended run of games in his natural position, that he has (for me) truly entered the conversation for a Canada call-up.

I posited that the March and June nations League games were too early for Herdman to call Choiniere up as a midfielder because he didn't want to mess too much with the chemistry of the A squad, meaning the only realistic shot MC would've had is the Gold Cup roster, which was the only experimental line-up Canada's had in years (other than the pre-WC MLS training camp, which Choiniere was a part of).

Next shot is the October window, and I agree he should absolutely be there. 

 

[RS]

33 minutes ago, costarg said:

He has played some midfield the other years as well.  You might just be learning about him now, but it was no secret to people who have been watching him.  

Yes, I'm just learning about Mathieu Choiniere now. In a thread that's five years old, on a board I've frequented since 2003 (and I was on this board's predecessor in 1997).

You got me.

[MauditYvon]

Can’t believe some think he’s not 3rd in our depth (especially in a 3-5-2).

You have Eustaquio and Koné before, no one will argue. After? Arfield is retired and Osorio is going through though times (thanks to his team, winning mentality I suppose).
 

Finally you have the traditional Piette&Kaye. You could add some Loturi to the mix, but they are nowhere near Choinière’s form and talent.

Too bad we don’t play next window.

[costarg]

59 minutes ago, RS said:

It's only now that Choiniere has shown excellence in an extended run of games in his natural position, that he has (for me) truly entered the conversation for a Canada call-up.

Anyone that's seen him play knows he was more than just a LWB.  Go back a few pages, you'll see a few of us were already pushing for him in CANMNT more than 12 months ago.  It was obvious, if you were watching....

[narduch]

Made MLS team of the week.

 

[RS]

14 minutes ago, costarg said:

Anyone that's seen him play knows he was more than just a LWB.  Go back a few pages, you'll see a few of us were already pushing for him in CANMNT more than 12 months ago.  It was obvious, if you were watching....

I'm not sure where your confusion lies, but I never suggested he was a LWB. It's common knowledge that he was playing out of position and he's naturally a midfielder.

My point, which you seem to keep missing, is that he hadn't done enough to show Herdman that he was worthy of a Canada call-up in midfield until this season. His club was using him as a LWB, which means the Canada staff was almost certainly evaluating his performances for Montreal as a wingback because that's where he was playing.

Could Herdman have placed more faith in him to succeed in his natural position despite not really showing it consistently in MLS until this season? Sure, he's done it for other younger players (Bombito immediately comes to mind). But he didn't for Choiniere, likely for the reasons I've repeatedly illustrated.

For all your inferences that I don't watch games outside of my city, you seem very ignorant to the fact that Osorio was head and shoulders above Choiniere until this season (go check his stats for 2022 if you don't believe me). Osorio was one of the players keeping Choiniere out of the Canada midfield, but this year their fortunes have reversed and Choiniere is more deserving of a spot.

My bet is they'll both get call for the Japan game, barring injuries.

[Bigandy]

52 minutes ago, RS said:

I'm not sure where your confusion lies, but I never suggested he was a LWB. It's common knowledge that he was playing out of position and he's naturally a midfielder.

My point, which you seem to keep missing, is that he hadn't done enough to show Herdman that he was worthy of a Canada call-up in midfield until this season. His club was using him as a LWB, which means the Canada staff was almost certainly evaluating his performances for Montreal as a wingback because that's where he was playing.

Could Herdman have placed more faith in him to succeed in his natural position despite not really showing it consistently in MLS until this season? Sure, he's done it for other younger players (Bombito immediately comes to mind). But he didn't for Choiniere, likely for the reasons I've repeatedly illustrated.

For all your inferences that I don't watch games outside of my city, you seem very ignorant to the fact that Osorio was head and shoulders above Choiniere until this season (go check his stats for 2022 if you don't believe me). Osorio was one of the players keeping Choiniere out of the Canada midfield, but this year their fortunes have reversed and Choiniere is more deserving of a spot.

My bet is they'll both get call for the Japan game, barring injuries.

This is as good an explanation as you can get on the forum. 

[BearcatSA]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

This is as good an explanation as you can get on the forum. 

I am with Rudi on this one, as well.

[MauditYvon]

12 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

This is as good an explanation as you can get on the forum. 

Or not, because he played in midfield last season.

[MauditYvon]

3 hours ago, RS said:

Yes, I'm just learning about Mathieu Choiniere now. In a thread that's five years old, on a board I've frequented since 2003 (and I was on this board's predecessor in 1997).

You got me.

Choinière 1996-1997 season was magic

[RS]

1 hour ago, MauditYvon said:

Or not, because he played in midfield last season.

His breakout season as a midfielder is this season, though.

[Bigandy]

14 hours ago, MauditYvon said:

Or not, because he played in midfield last season.

The explanation accounted for that.

"Could Herdman have placed more faith in him to succeed in his natural position despite not really showing it consistently in MLS until this season? Sure, he's done it for other younger players (Bombito immediately comes to mind). But he didn't for Choiniere, likely for the reasons I've repeatedly illustrated."

@RS acknowledged that he could have been called up but its understandable why he wasnt since he wasnt having a cm breakout year.  

[InglewoodJack]

That’s a good point- why was Bombito given trust to play a new position but Choiniere wasn’t? Herdman’s love affair with Bombito is probably the weirdest thing about his tenure with the national team. I can at least get why he gave Fraser and Brym more time than they might’ve earned, but with Bombito, I have no idea what he was cooking.

[costarg]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

That’s a good point- why was Bombito given trust to play a new position but Choiniere wasn’t? Herdman’s love affair with Bombito is probably the weirdest thing about his tenure with the national team. I can at least get why he gave Fraser and Brym more time than they might’ve earned, but with Bombito, I have no idea what he was cooking.

Domenech famously admitted astrology played a part in his squad selection.  I mean Herdman was carrying around a freakin medieval sword with CANMNT and talking brotherhood, who knows what's going on behind the scenes.  One thing is certain, he's loyal to who ever is in, and very clear about who was not. 

[Bigandy]

16 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

That’s a good point- why was Bombito given trust to play a new position but Choiniere wasn’t? Herdman’s love affair with Bombito is probably the weirdest thing about his tenure with the national team. I can at least get why he gave Fraser and Brym more time than they might’ve earned, but with Bombito, I have no idea what he was cooking.

I dont think its strange at all and heres my interpretation of JH process with bombito

I think we get more out of staq and kone when they play as 8's rather than 6's. We dont have any players who can play the 6 in a way to allow staq and kone freedom. Mostly the ability to cover ground, win aerially battles and keep us in possession. Bombito isnt that player at the moment, but he has the foundation that it could be possible he is that guy one day. It's worth exploring that option and theres no better timing than at the GC. Next, hes also another body to add to the CB list so getting him in the camp was an absolute must IMO to get a feel for him. Again, his playing profile at CB is something we lack a bit. Its 2 birds, 1 stone. 

Choiniere for sure deserves a look too but thats independent of bombito IMO. 

[InglewoodJack]

27 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I dont think its strange at all and heres my interpretation of JH process with bombito

I think we get more out of staq and kone when they play as 8's rather than 6's. We dont have any players who can play the 6 in a way to allow staq and kone freedom. Mostly the ability to cover ground, win aerially battles and keep us in possession. Bombito isnt that player at the moment, but he has the foundation that it could be possible he is that guy one day. It's worth exploring that option and theres no better timing than at the GC. Next, hes also another body to add to the CB list so getting him in the camp was an absolute must IMO to get a feel for him. Again, his playing profile at CB is something we lack a bit. Its 2 birds, 1 stone. 

Choiniere for sure deserves a look too but thats independent of bombito IMO. 

I would absolutely agree with this if Herdman was coaching a club because you can ease a guy into a position over the span of several games, you can test out new things during cup matches, but I would think for the National team, you want players who are ready now, especially in competitive games, and I don't think that it's Canada's job to develop Bombito, that's Colorado's. I would also understand the move a lot more if Bombito busted out on the scene for Colorado, but he hasn't exactly very good either. I appreciate the ambition and creativity on Herdman's part, but I don't think that's the purpose of these games unless he thought that Bombito was destined for that tier 1 potential- player like Kone or better. Realistically, you can't play a guy through his hardships on the national team- if he's having a bad game, you sub him out, just like Herdman did when he took him out int he first half. You put Bombito on a team like TFC, and by all means go crazy and try new things.

That said, if Herdman does move to TFC, that probably bodes well for our young players. I think he'll probably be a lot more inclined to play JMR in his best positions, give more freedom to Franklin,hell, maybe he'll turn Stefanovic into an elite CM.

Agreed Choiniere/Bombito are separate convos, but the argument is that Choiniere wasn't chosen because he only broke out as a CM this year, but Bombito hasn't broken out as a CDM ever. I'm sure Herdman has considered this, and even I was skeptical of calling MC when the Nations League roster dropped, but he's a guy who is a much better bet to exceed expectations than Bombito is, just based on where they're at with their clubs.

Edited August 22, 2023 by InglewoodJack

[BearcatSA]

On 4/25/2023 at 9:02 AM, BearcatSA said:

Choiniere has a number of strengths in his game but has also been exposed with protecting the ball under close marking scrutiny or loose passing.  He needs to improve in that area.

I posted this  near the end of  April in my opinion of his play up to that time. and since it is has been terrific to see him up his game and garner league-wide notice

I was surprised that he was not in the GC squad.  I would certainly expect him to be an October call up.

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I would absolutely agree with this if Herdman was coaching a club because you can ease a guy into a position over the span of several games, you can test out new things during cup matches, but I would think for the National team, you want players who are ready now, especially in competitive games, and I don't think that it's Canada's job to develop Bombito, that's Colorado's. I would also understand the move a lot more if Bombito busted out on the scene for Colorado, but he hasn't exactly very good either. I appreciate the ambition and creativity on Herdman's part, but I don't think that's the purpose of these games unless he thought that Bombito was destined for that tier 1 potential- player like Kone or better. Realistically, you can't play a guy through his hardships on the national team- if he's having a bad game, you sub him out, just like Herdman did when he took him out int he first half. You put Bombito on a team like TFC, and by all means go crazy and try new things.

That said, if Herdman does move to TFC, that probably bodes well for our young players. I think he'll probably be a lot more inclined to play JMR in his best positions, give more freedom to Franklin,hell, maybe he'll turn Stefanovic into an elite CM.

Agreed Choiniere/Bombito are separate convos, but the argument is that Choiniere wasn't chosen because he only broke out as a CM this year, but Bombito hasn't broken out as a CDM ever. I'm sure Herdman has considered this, and even I was skeptical of calling MC when the Nations League roster dropped, but he's a guy who is a much better bet to exceed expectations than Bombito is, just based on where they're at with their clubs.

I think you are trying to debate me on the validity of Herdmans logic. I think its easy to understand his logic even if you disagree. For example, you say this experiment is worth it if bombito is a tier 1 player potential. Maybe herdman thinks hes tier 1 potential or maybe his criteria for this experiment has to do with depth of a particular player profile and/or position.

I am not 100% sold that bombito is our CDM answer but I think Herdman saw Bombito as a tier 1 player unlocker.  Not that bombito is a tier 1 player but that hes available to do the things to make our tier 1 players better. IMO, whether bombito is destined to be a tier 1 player or he unlocks our tier 1 players, he deserves a look. 

I also think that the GC is meant to be a tournament to blood in new guys. Bombito looked better than loturi and on par with fraser...ish.   Its not like we had another CDM who wouldve been a clear upgrade on Bombito.  Choiniere obv is more box to box so not a direct competitor.

[BearcatSA]

Bombito looked like a CB athlete who was in on-the-job training with the other important intricacies of playing CDM.

[narduch]

Bombito isn't even a starter on one of the worst teams in MLS.

Meanwhile Choiniere is a fucking All-Star

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

Bombito isn't even a starter on one of the worst teams in MLS.

Meanwhile Choiniere is a fucking All-Star

They dont play the same role. Choiniere is the better player but in a position we have more depth in (he still should be called 100%). Bombito at CDM is competing with fraser, loturi and an injured piette. 

That would be like comparing ugbo to corbeanu. Both attackers and both can technically fill gaps if required, but they arent head to head competitors when building out your roster. 

[InglewoodJack]

8 minutes ago, narduch said:

Bombito isn't even a starter on one of the worst teams in MLS.

Meanwhile Choiniere is a fucking All-Star

Mostly what I was trying to say, yeah. 

[narduch]

30 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

They dont play the same role. Choiniere is the better player but in a position we have more depth in (he still should be called 100%). Bombito at CDM is competing with fraser, loturi and an injured piette. 

That would be like comparing ugbo to corbeanu. Both attackers and both can technically fill gaps if required, but they arent head to head competitors when building out your roster. 

As far as I can tell Bombito doesn't even play CDM for his club