CPL/L1C - Division II - Pro/Rel discussion

[Cblake]

I could see a D2 league happening on a smaller financial scale and a regional footprint but i just do not see how promotion/relegation works at this point in this scenario. Say you have a team in Red Dear, Alberta or Barrie, Ontario playing in front of say 1,000 to 1,500 a night is it really all that viable for them to end up in the CPL. I could see an handful of junior hockey owners especially out west take a stab at this, considering that they already have the staff and infrastructure in place to get involved in such a venture during the summer months.

There would be a real cost for say the PDL/USL League 2, L1O teams etc to turn pro and they would have to be really sure about. It is not like we have seen rush of USL League 2 teams wanting to make such a jump, only a few have and even some the most successful teams have chosen not too. 

I really do not see what type of role the CPL/CSB would play in such a league with a completely different set of owners beyond an advisory one as more successful soccer in this country is better for them. It will be interesting though. 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

There have been occasional rumblings elsewhere about the CSA not allowing the Whitecaps U-23 team into USL D1 and Don Garber was vocal recently about a solution needing to be found for the MLS academy investment to make sense in a Canadian context given how few loan signings are happening in a CanPL context.

Suspect this D2 stuff is the potential solution, if the tweets are accurate. We'll find out in May whether it gets sanctioned by the CSA for a 2021 launch. This is potentially highly problematic for the future growth of CanPL and provincial D3 leagues, so the soccer politics could get interesting. It's not safe to assume it would be an automatic slam dunk. If CanPL are really insisting on a $9 million expansion fee, it's difficult to argue over the need for a cheaper alternative, however.

I have no idea what FC London's attitude on this would be, but I think it would be much easier to sell a D2 league as an important spectator event in a London context than an L1O game against some nondescript GTA youth club, so would not be surprised if they got involved. If regional Ontario markets like K/W, London, St Catherines, Barrie, Kingston, Sudbury and Windsor are not viewed as a priority on CanPL expansion there is a definite niche for a PDL style bus travel league that could quickly be filled in the Windsor-Quebec corridor.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

More powerful clubs did form a super league.  It's called the Premiership, and it's only rival on a global scale is the NFL.  Highly recommend a book called The Club about it's formation.  And a European Super League is coming.  It hasn't failed, because the money has still been worth it to not form one yet.  But as mega clubs form (or get bought up), the owners are going to say "why are we sharing the wealth with these smaller clubs?"  And they'll break away and won't give a sh!t about FIFA or sanctioning, and they'll throw enough money at the players that they won't care either.

In conclusion, I think a I have concerns about the financial viability of a league 2 in Canada but view the way they seem to be setting it up as the way to go.

The Premier league isn't cross border though

As for your assumption that clubs will form a Euro super league and not care about sanctioning is plain wrong. As pointed out to you, FIFA has all the leverage to prevent that from happening.

[dyslexic nam]

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

...a European Super League is coming.  It hasn't failed, because the money has still been worth it to not form one yet.  But as mega clubs form (or get bought up), the owners are going to say "why are we sharing the wealth with these smaller clubs?"  And they'll break away and won't give a sh!t about FIFA or sanctioning, and they'll throw enough money at the players that they won't care either.

I think you are significantly overestimating the chance that this will happen. 

FIFA has a huge interest in maintaining order in the national league system, and permitting the creation of a Euro super league would completely undermine that order.  They will use all available tools to ensure it doesn't happen.  That includes exclusion from the WC, the Euros, and in fact any national level competitions.  That may or may not be a sustainable stance in the long term, but I am sure FIFA would go nuclear and at least try it to prevent such a league from happening.

And it isn't just FIFA that has a strong interest in the status quo.  National associations reap significant benefits from having strong national networks of teams scouring their countries for talent, and developing them through the highest level of competition they can provide.  All of this is undermined if they let the big clubs walk away and take their revenue with them.  That means those teams would be excluded from not only local league play, but also from the various cup competitions that allow them to generate more revenue and provide squad players with competition.  

The fact is that most of these clubs already reap some of the benefits of a "super-league" through their participation in the champions league.  It may not offer precisely the same level of revenue, but when you consider it in the context of  the benefits they already accrue through the status quo arrangement, I think  it makes less sense than you imply.  You can only fit so many people into a stadium, and TV revenues max out at some point.   These clubs are already global brands and sell a ton of merch due to their super club reputation.  Participation in an even more elite competition doesn't actually advance their interests that much, and has the aforementioned downsides (and likely others).  

I suspect the threat of a breakaway league is more of a bargaining tool to allow the mega clubs to secure acceptable revenue sharing terms during negotiations rather than anything that will actually materialize.  The fact is that it hasn't materialized yet, despite years and years of European cup competition that has shown these clubs the model. To me, that is telling.

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

 

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

The Premier league isn't cross border though

As for your assumption that clubs will form a Euro super league and not care about sanctioning is plain wrong. As pointed out to you, FIFA has all the leverage to prevent that from happening.

FIFA has the ability to prevent players from playing internationally. I'm saying it's possible the top clubs reach a point of wealth that they throw enough money at the players that that doesn't matter.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Watchmen said:

FIFA has the ability to prevent players from playing internationally. I'm saying it's possible the top clubs reach a point of wealth that they throw enough money at the players that that doesn't matter.

Enough money so they never play in Copa America, Euro or a World Cup???

Not a chance in hell.

You do understand that there's no way FIFA let's a precedent slide which the most powerful clubs in the world would be eager to use to advance their plans. The US might be the "elephant" in North American sports but they really are the opposite in FIFA. 

They aren't letting this happen over an American league and Canadian clubs. That's overestimating our importance within FIFA.

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think you are significantly overestimating the chance that this will happen. 

FIFA has a huge interest in maintaining order in the national league system, and permitting the creation of a Euro super league would completely undermine that order.  They will use all available tools to ensure it doesn't happen.  That includes exclusion from the WC, the Euros, and in fact any national level competitions.  That may or may not be a sustainable stance in the long term, but I am sure FIFA would go nuclear and at least try it to prevent such a league from happening.

And it isn't just FIFA that has a strong interest in the status quo.  National associations reap significant benefits from having strong national networks of teams scouring their countries for talent, and developing them through the highest level of competition they can provide.  All of this is undermined if they let the big clubs walk away and take their revenue with them.  That means those teams would be excluded from not only local league play, but also from the various cup competitions that allow them to generate more revenue and provide squad players with competition.  

The fact is that most of these clubs already reap some of the benefits of a "super-league" through their participation in the champions league.  It may not offer precisely the same level of revenue, but when you consider it in the context of  the benefits they already accrue through the status quo arrangement, I think  it makes less sense than you imply.  You can only fit so many people into a stadium, and TV revenues max out at some point.   These clubs are already global brands and sell a ton of merch due to their super club reputation.  Participation in an even more elite competition doesn't actually advance their interests that much, and has the aforementioned downsides (and likely others).  

I suspect the threat of a breakaway league is more of a bargaining tool to allow the mega clubs to secure acceptable revenue sharing terms during negotiations rather than anything that will actually materialize.  The fact is that it hasn't materialized yet, despite years and years of European cup competition that has shown these clubs the model. To me, that is telling.

 

Oh, FIFA, UEFA, and the national organizations have a massive incentive to prevent that from happening. I'm not saying any of these organizations would *let* it happen. I'm saying we're heading to a point where the mega clubs say "we don't care" and do it anyway. Where they build a closed circuit "Champions League", where a team like Man U is always in (not fighting to get back), and instead of taking just some of the revenue from TV take all of it. Where they can say to the players "play for us and you'll make more money than anywhere else". The threat of the breakaway league has been enough for now, but I think there's a financial tipping point where it makes more sense (for them) to leave. 

[Watchmen]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Enough money so they never play in Copa America, Euro or a World Cup???

Not a chance in hell.

Yes. I 100% believe this.

And that in the end FIFA backs down, because it then turns out they'd rather have those players at a World Cup then not.

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Yes. I 100% believe this.

And that in the end FIFA backs down, because it then turns out they'd rather have those players at a World Cup then not.

Why would they do that when they can have their cake and eat it too?

 Most would just play for teams remaining in sanctioned leagues allowing them to keep going to FIFA tournaments and make similar money.

Go Everton, Marseille, Valencia etc...

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

38 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Why would they do that when they can have their cake and eat it too?

 Most would just play for teams remaining in sanctioned leagues allowing them to keep going to FIFA tournaments and make similar money.

Go Everton, Marseille, Valencia etc...

Because they wouldn't make similar money. That's my point. They'd make much more. And I think FIFA then bends and allows them to play anyway.  Just like UEFA keeps trying to enforce their "financial fair play" rules and then completely caving as soon as a super team challenges them. 

This discussion has moved very far away from the topic of this thread.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[Impactsupporter]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I have no idea what FC London's attitude on this would be, but I think it would be much easier to sell a D2 league as an important spectator event in a London context than an L1O game against some nondescript GTA youth club, so would not be surprised if they got involved. If regional Ontario markets like K/W, London, St Catherines, Barrie, Kingston, Sudbury and Windsor are not viewed as a priority on CanPL expansion there is a definite niche for a PDL style bus travel league that could quickly be filled in the Windsor-Quebec corridor.

Then just think the following:

https://www.cjfl.org/

or

http://nfcfootball.ca/

Even Down Under:

https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/arnie-we-need-a-second-division-529723

Just a thought.

[Ams1984]

6 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think you are significantly overestimating the chance that this will happen. 

FIFA has a huge interest in maintaining order in the national league system, and permitting the creation of a Euro super league would completely undermine that order.  They will use all available tools to ensure it doesn't happen.  That includes exclusion from the WC, the Euros, and in fact any national level competitions.  That may or may not be a sustainable stance in the long term, but I am sure FIFA would go nuclear and at least try it to prevent such a league from happening.

And it isn't just FIFA that has a strong interest in the status quo.  National associations reap significant benefits from having strong national networks of teams scouring their countries for talent, and developing them through the highest level of competition they can provide.  All of this is undermined if they let the big clubs walk away and take their revenue with them.  That means those teams would be excluded from not only local league play, but also from the various cup competitions that allow them to generate more revenue and provide squad players with competition.  

The fact is that most of these clubs already reap some of the benefits of a "super-league" through their participation in the champions league.  It may not offer precisely the same level of revenue, but when you consider it in the context of  the benefits they already accrue through the status quo arrangement, I think  it makes less sense than you imply.  You can only fit so many people into a stadium, and TV revenues max out at some point.   These clubs are already global brands and sell a ton of merch due to their super club reputation.  Participation in an even more elite competition doesn't actually advance their interests that much, and has the aforementioned downsides (and likely others).  

I suspect the threat of a breakaway league is more of a bargaining tool to allow the mega clubs to secure acceptable revenue sharing terms during negotiations rather than anything that will actually materialize.  The fact is that it hasn't materialized yet, despite years and years of European cup competition that has shown these clubs the model. To me, that is telling.

 

Some people have been advocating for multi national super leagues for ages. I think it’s an absolutely terrible idea for all the reasons you mention, but also because one of the things I love most about soccer is how organic it is; a group of guys can start a non league club in a bumpkin town in Scotland or wherever, and ten years later they could be in the ECL! Magic! That can’t happen in these stupid top-down centralized leagues like the NFL or whatever... and the idea that we’ll just take the top few clubs in Europe, separate them out, and screw the rest, is antithetical to the nature of soccer as a sport. 

Also, the novelty of seeing Real Madrid vs Man City will become much less if they play each other all the time in some kind of super league. 
 

Finally, another one of the great things about soccer is that there are different styles of play. You’ve got the Anglo style, there’s Catennacio, there’s Tiki Taka, there’s the Dutch variety total football etc... 

Creating a ‘super league’ makes everything a bland amorphous mush of grey continental style, devoid of any flavour. Sure, we’ll still have West Brom, Herenveen, Torino, and Betis, but they’d presumably never play each other if only the now continental and tasteless ‘elite’ of their respective countries are involved in a ‘super league’. 
 

Want to ruin football? Make it into a one-size-fits-all bland continental ‘super league’. I’ll stop watching, and so will everyone else after they realize how boring  and meaningless it is. 

[narduch]

I swear I've been hearing about a Euro 'Super League' for over 20 years now.

I actually think those clubs should be careful what they wish for.

Do teams like ManU and Arsenal think they will grow their fair-weather fan bases if they are continually coming in 17th place in this fictitious league?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

16 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

Then just think the following:

https://www.cjfl.org/

or

http://nfcfootball.ca/

Even Down Under:

https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/arnie-we-need-a-second-division-529723

Just a thought.

Don't think it's any more complicated than actually doing what was in the Easton report with a Canadian version of PDL organized regionally. The usual suspects on Twitter seem to be talking down the idea that this is at odds with CanPL's vision, but it's really not that long ago that 2026 was still being mentioned by David Clanachan as the timeline for having a D2 after first reaching 14-16 D1 teams.

At the very least this suggests there has been a sudden radical change in strategy to accomodate the wishes of potential investors like the SkSSS group but how does that square with the Victoria Highlanders, Calgary Foothills (according to the initial series of tweets) and a top Edmonton AMSL club (according to a Reddit poster - post now deleted) being involved? I seriously doubt those three markets are getting second CanPL franchises any time soon.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[IAmPappy]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Because they wouldn't make similar money. That's my point. They'd make much more. And I think FIFA then bends and allows them to play anyway.  Just like UEFA keeps trying to enforce their "financial fair play" rules and then completely caving as soon as a super team challenges them. 

This discussion has moved very far away from the topic of this thread.

Would love to continue this discussion somewhere else, but what you’re suggesting: I’m not saying it’s never gonna happen, but seriously, it’s NEVER gonna happen.

Edited December 17, 2019 by IAmPappy

[SthMelbRed]

6 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Because they wouldn't make similar money. That's my point. They'd make much more. And I think FIFA then bends and allows them to play anyway.  Just like UEFA keeps trying to enforce their "financial fair play" rules and then completely caving as soon as a super team challenges them. 

This discussion has moved very far away from the topic of this thread.

The supporters of the major clubs talking about a Euro Super League don't want it. None of them. Not the match going fans. Not the ones watching on TV. That's why it's not going to happen.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[SkuseisLoose]

On 12/17/2019 at 9:07 AM, Watchmen said:

Oh, FIFA, UEFA, and the national organizations have a massive incentive to prevent that from happening. I'm not saying any of these organizations would *let* it happen. I'm saying we're heading to a point where the mega clubs say "we don't care" and do it anyway. Where they build a closed circuit "Champions League", where a team like Man U is always in (not fighting to get back), and instead of taking just some of the revenue from TV take all of it. Where they can say to the players "play for us and you'll make more money than anywhere else". The threat of the breakaway league has been enough for now, but I think there's a financial tipping point where it makes more sense (for them) to leave. 

They'll play in front of nobody most likely. The fans of these  teams don't want to play away to Bayern or Barcelona or whoever the fuck each week. Soccer is about the fans and the fans aren't going to support leaving their league to go play in some super league when the champions league exist for that very reason. Most of these fans can't afford to travel around Europe every second weekend and it will kill the away fan atmosphere at games. Besides the point every club in the country has to be sanctioned by the fa of the country. So if they do decide to break away from their national organizations they'll likely be unsanctioned and unable to continue to play. Even if it was allowed to go through I doubt the fans will support it and they'l be playing in front of empty stadiums every week.

[BFBF]

Let me summarize...

Canadian clubs from across the country: actually communicate with each other.

Canadian fans across the country: oh no! The CPL is going to die!

[SpursFlu]

I think it shows an eagerness to get shit moving and not have to wait for a proper stadium

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

...or pay the alleged $9 million expansion fee, which seems to run counter to having a club rather than a franchise format. This is basically the sort of format I was advocating on here a couple of years back. A Canadian version of USL D2 is lower risk and should be able to evolve over time into something more substantial whether in terms of individual clubs moving to D1 or in terms of the entire league, if the fan interest is there to sustain it. Will be interesting to see whether the CSA sanctions it in May at their next AGM, so it can launch in 2021 after the tournament format that is supposed to be happening in 2020.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[SpursFlu]

Do you live in Canada? You know how difficult it to get a stadium even a modest size stadium built in this country? For instance for a div 2 league Kelowna could play in the Apple Bowl but that would not do for CPL standards. Cue the CAVE people at city council meetings when your trying to get something built. In fact the league as cited venues countless times as the number 1 issue they face. I attended the public meeting once upon a time when the Whitecaps were considering building a stadium at Queens Park. I have never felt so depressed as I did leaving that meeting. One women went on a 20 minute rant about Tim Hortons hiring foreign workers, another person claimed nobody played soccer in Canada and when they were told 4x more people in New West v baseball register for soccer they said it was a lie and that they're just trying to build a stadium because the World Cup was on tv. One person started yelling at Duzzi that he was building the stadium without consulting the public. Irony. Another guy was mad because that location is where the city stores it's rakes and shovles. It went on and on

CAVE pepple are citizens against virtually everything. They're everywhere but once a team connects to the community people are willing to tell them to go away

Edited December 20, 2019 by SpursFlu