CPL/L1C - Division II - Pro/Rel discussion

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

21 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Do you live in Canada? You know how difficult it to get a stadium even a modest size stadium built in this country? For instance for a div 2 league Kelowna could play in the Apple Bowl but that would not do for CPL standards...

Was this aimed at me? I wasn't arguing with you where the difficulty related to stadiums is concerned. I've always thought a lower budget and shorter season PDL sort of approach with more flexibility on stadiums was a better way to go to get the show on the road in many more cities. In a London, Ont context it's much easier to get a team going in a league like this if the German club can be used with a capacity of 2000 or so. It could easily be another decade before something suitable for CanPL emerges, if ever. 

[Cblake]

The ability to build stadiums has changed greatly for the worse in the last 15-20 years.  

[SpursFlu]

46 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Was this aimed at me? I wasn't arguing with you where the difficulty related to stadiums is concerned. I've always thought a lower budget and shorter season PDL sort of approach with more flexibility on stadiums was a better way to go to get the show on the road in many more cities. In a London, Ont context it's much easier to get a team going in a league like this if the German club can be used with a capacity of 2000 or so. It could easily be another decade before something suitable for CanPL emerges, if ever. 

It's not a better way to go for everyone. It's not a one or the other. Once you get to markets 10-15 you may need to create a bridge because there are too many good young players waiting to jump on board and not enough professional teams at the moment

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

48 minutes ago, Cblake said:

The ability to build stadiums has changed greatly for the worse in the last 15-20 years.  

Life was a lot easier on finding a suitable venue for pro soccer teams in the original CSL era when most U-sports football stadiums still had grass playing surfaces rather than permanently marked fieldturf. Given that backdrop, the idea that CanPL is going to be able to expand out to 16 by 2026 and add a second division at that point is extremely optimistic before we even get into the question of whether all of the groups that are already there look likely to hang around for the duration long term.

Cities like Windsor, London, Kitchener, St Catherines, Barrie, Sudbury and Kingston need something better to aspire to than L1O that doesn't need a 6000 seat stadium and a high seven figure expansion fee as a condition of entry, so it's good to see this D2 thing potentially emerging. Hopefully the powers that be in CanPL and the CSA don't view this as a threat, because it should be easier to convince municipalities of the need to build a 6000 seater soccer stadium as an extra piece of municipal infrastructure, if you can point to a team that's regularly drawing 2000 or so at a grassroots venue in a D2 setup.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Impactsupporter]

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Cities like Windsor, London, Kitchener, St Catherines, Barrie, Sudbury and Kingston need something better to aspire to than L1O that doesn't need a 6000 seat stadium and a high seven figure expansion fee as a condition of entry, so it's good to see this D2 thing potentially emerging. Hopefully the powers that be in CanPL and the CSA don't view this as a threat, because it should be easier to convince municipalities of the need to build a 6000 seater soccer stadium as an extra piece of municipal infrastructure, if you can point to a team that's regularly drawing 2000 or so in a D2 setup.

Then would it not be better to improve L10 to bring it up to a D2 status? (or at the very least a good feeder system for the CPL)

Can the above cities you mention be able to withstand coast to coast travel required by the CPL? ie travel costs.   (IF they were to be promoted to the CPL)

 

[Shway]

I find this thread is beyond over zealous... CPL D2, Promotion/Relegation...... Can we get to 10 teams first? 

[Big_M]

is l1o really semi pro or only in name and really is high level amateur..anyway at 18 teams think they are far from d2 pro but maybe some teams could

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

39 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

Then would it not be better to improve L10 to bring it up to a D2 status? 

L1O is primarily an elite local amateur league for top GTA suburban youth clubs. It's debatable whether it should really be viewed as a provincial league, because its format makes it difficult for teams elsewhere in Ontario to participate.

L1O belongs where it is at D3 and has an important role to play in that context given it can cater to about 20% of Canada's population, but fan interest is minimal and likely to remain so.

Something different in format along the lines of PDL is needed to make long distance bus travel work at D2 level in smaller cities where there is scope for drawing low four figure crowds in a junior hockey sort of way.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[CDNFootballer]

4 hours ago, Big_M said:

is l1o really semi pro or only in name and really is high level amateur..anyway at 18 teams think they are far from d2 pro but maybe some teams could

League 1 Ontario was supposed to be paying wages to players after year 2. Think PLSQ has teams paying at least some players wages as well.

Hopefully the new League 1 BC is paying wages to players from the outset.

[Big_M]

Gatineau was asking players to pay then Soccer Quebec told them to stop and they left the league..strongly doubt 18 teams in l1o will be paying players

[vancanman]

19 hours ago, Shway said:

I find this thread is beyond over zealous... CPL D2, Promotion/Relegation...... Can we get to 10 teams first? 

10 teams?  Can we get to eight first?  

(Sorry, I'm old and I don't know how to make those face thingies or which one indicates that I'm only joking, so please don't take offence.)

[red card]

Why some here can't seem to get on side with pro/reg and other things seen in world football leagues, mainstream North American sports writers and the NBA have started to lean towards the Euro model. The CPL should heed not to make the regular season meaningless with too many playoffs and no pro/reg pathway.

Cathal Kelley in the Globe:

The NBA is acknowledging what the rest of us have already figured out – that the regular season is fading into insignificance.

For most leagues, they’re more like an extended preseason. For six months, teams pretend-fight each other. It’s more slapping than punching, and too often it’s tickling.

Under those circumstances, what is the purpose of the regular season? It’s not to determine advantageous positioning. It’s to wring as much cash as possible out of ticket buyers and cable-package-having viewers.

Their new model is European soccer. All top leagues there run two parallel competitions – the league and the cup. It’s a good idea. It’s the reason people feel they must watch Liverpool vs. Manchester City in November, but no one thinks it is absolutely imperative they watch Washington vs. Colorado in January.

People have already become sports grazers. They’ll tune in when it’s compelling. This is how a few hundred thousand regular Raptors viewers ballooned into several million bandwagon jumpers over the course of their championship run, and why the numbers dialled back down once the regular season restarted.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/article-the-nba-is-far-ahead-of-other-major-sports-leagues-in-understanding/

[Bison44]

Cathal Kelley??  oh boy........ 😒

[Initial B]

The problem with a Div 2 in Canada is the population density. At a Div 2 level, the travel costs become nonviable if spread over too large a geographic region. Honestly, there are very few places in Canada I expect regional Div leagues could be viable, in order of most likely to least (all locations within  7-hr bus ride from any other):

1.  Windsor to Quebec City Corridor: This region is an order of magnitude greater than anywhere else in Canada and dense enough that you could split it into two regions - Windsor-Sudbury-Kingston and Ottawa-Sherbrooke-Saguenay. Each of these areas might be doable for there-and-back same-day league games.
2. Edmonton-Lethbridge-Medicine Hat Triangle: This is probably the next most populous area that could work, but possibly interchangeable with... 
3. Vancouver to Kelowna Corridor:  The mountainous terrain compacts the area  that can be realistically driven to. Sorry, but ferry rides will be unsustainable for other clubs, so Vancouver Island is either Div 1 or bust (unless clubs get subsidized by BC Ferries).
4. Fredericton to Sydney Corridor: This is the lightest density that I think could possibly work. Sorry again, but St. John's ferry rides will *definitely* be unsustainable for other clubs, so Newfoundland is also either Div 1 or bust (unless teams get subsidized by Maritime Atlantic).
5. Brandon-Prince Albert-Swift Current Triangle: I don't think Div 2 could work here, but I included it for completion sake. 

If you wonder why I didn't include other locations, there simply isn't enough towns close enough to make it work, with too long travel times. 80% of Manitoba lives within 100 km of Winnipeg, who are already in Div 1 and Thunder Bay is simply not close to anybody.

One other caveat, if CanPL grows larger than 8-10 teams, then it will make it impossible to create enough Div 2 teams for local regions, which in turn would cannibalize population centres that could incubate Div 3 clubs. I know everybody keeps saying that you can have more than one team per population centre, but that's never really worked at a professional level except for the GTA.

[Impactsupporter]

3 hours ago, Initial B said:

The problem with a Div 2 in Canada is the population density. At a Div 2 level, the travel costs become nonviable if spread over too large a geographic region. Honestly, there are very few places in Canada I expect regional Div leagues could be viable, in order of most likely to least (all locations within  7-hr bus ride from any other):

1.  Windsor to Quebec City Corridor: This region is an order of magnitude greater than anywhere else in Canada and dense enough that you could split it into two regions - Windsor-Sudbury-Kingston and Ottawa-Sherbrooke-Saguenay. Each of these areas might be doable for there-and-back same-day league games.
2. Edmonton-Lethbridge-Medicine Hat Triangle: This is probably the next most populous area that could work, but possibly interchangeable with... 
3. Vancouver to Kelowna Corridor:  The mountainous terrain compacts the area  that can be realistically driven to. Sorry, but ferry rides will be unsustainable for other clubs, so Vancouver Island is either Div 1 or bust (unless clubs get subsidized by BC Ferries).
4. Fredericton to Sydney Corridor: This is the lightest density that I think could possibly work. Sorry again, but St. John's ferry rides will *definitely* be unsustainable for other clubs, so Newfoundland is also either Div 1 or bust (unless teams get subsidized by Maritime Atlantic).
5. Brandon-Prince Albert-Swift Current Triangle: I don't think Div 2 could work here, but I included it for completion sake. 

If you wonder why I didn't include other locations, there simply isn't enough towns close enough to make it work, with too long travel times. 80% of Manitoba lives within 100 km of Winnipeg, who are already in Div 1 and Thunder Bay is simply not close to anybody.

One other caveat, if CanPL grows larger than 8-10 teams, then it will make it impossible to create enough Div 2 teams for local regions, which in turn would cannibalize population centres that could incubate Div 3 clubs. I know everybody keeps saying that you can have more than one team per population centre, but that's never really worked at a professional level except for the GTA.

I have thinking along those lines lately and if you were willing to use a rugby analogy, the CPL would become a rugby super league ( with teams representing various regions) or even the CFL and the above mentioned corridors and triangles would be the equivalant of rugby unions.

As for more that one teams per population centre, that will work in provincial leagues, not really in the CPL.

 

Just a thought.

maybe you will also want to consider this for a divison 2 idea:

https://www.cjhlhockey.com/en/

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

17 hours ago, Initial B said:

The problem with a Div 2 in Canada is the population density...

The Thunder Bay Chill have been able to sustain travel to teams as far away as Missouri, Iowa and Kansas for almost twenty years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_USL_League_Two_season#Heartland_Division

The PDL short season format works if you have young NCAA scholarship type players who are willing to do long distance bus travel and you can run summer camps as a money raiser on the side.

[The Real Marc]

Density is not the problem. It really doesn't matter whether you're travelling 200 km or 500 km or 700 km.

The problem is investment.

At that level, gates aren't a serious source of revenue. So you need a team that can raise the funds via sponsorships and camps, or someone with deep pockets willing to lose money year after year.

In either situation, you need a group of serious owners - not a few, but a whole league's worth - that are in it for the long-haul.

The issue with the list of locations above (Fredericton-Sidney, Brandon et al, etc.) isn't the distances to the next game - it's who the hell in those communities is going to pony up the money to run enough teams, year after money-losing year?

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by The Real Marc

[Bison44]

Thunder bay is closer to kansas city, Des Moines and Green bay (us midwest) than they are to Regina or Toronto.  

[Initial B]

On 12/24/2019 at 7:21 PM, The Real Marc said:

Density is not the problem. It really doesn't matter whether you're travelling 200 km or 500 km or 700 km.

The problem is investment.

At that level, gates aren't a serious source of revenue. So you need a team that can raise the funds via sponsorships and camps, or someone with deep pockets willing to lose money year after year.

In either situation, you need a group of serious owners - not a few, but a whole league's worth - that are in it for the long-haul.

The issue with the list of locations above (Fredericton-Sidney, Brandon et al, etc.) isn't the distances to the next game - it's who the hell in those communities is going to pony up the money to run enough teams, year after money-losing year?

You're right that investment is probably even a bigger issue than Pop density, but I see both as interlinked. I remember us discussing that Saint John could get a team before Moncton with a smaller population base because Irving Corp could be the backers.

The trick is to have the CanPL survive at least 5 seasons so they will have enough seasonal operational data to allow prospective owners to decide that it's worth their while to invest in the league. Look at MLS - it took at least 10 years middling along at 10-12 teams, then in the next 10 years doubled in size. The deal with MediaPro is for 10 years and Volkswagen is a multi-year deal, which should give the league enough time and cashflow to stabilize and allow growth.

The key is going to be getting CanPL to the seventh year of operations. CSL failed after year 6, and the only reason MLS didn't fail after year 6 was because they contracted the league by two teams and 3 owners controlled all the clubs. I get the feeling Bob Young and the Southerns are that safety net for the CanPL.

[TFC2017]

What if D2 was split geographically? For ex: 3rd/4th divisions in Germany/Italy/Spain. That would cut travel costs, as well as allowing more smaller municipalities to have a team as worst case they'd still have D2 soccer and they'd be playing more locally (For ex: BC teams and Alberta teams in 1 group). The top teams would be able to move up to a "Playoff" between the other region winners and that would decide promotion. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 12/23/2019 at 4:37 PM, red card said:

Why some here can't seem to get on side with pro/reg and other things seen in world football leagues, mainstream North American sports writers and the NBA have started to lean towards the Euro model. The CPL should heed not to make the regular season meaningless with too many playoffs and no pro/reg pathway.

Cathal Kelley in the Globe:

The NBA is acknowledging what the rest of us have already figured out – that the regular season is fading into insignificance.

For most leagues, they’re more like an extended preseason. For six months, teams pretend-fight each other. It’s more slapping than punching, and too often it’s tickling.

Under those circumstances, what is the purpose of the regular season? It’s not to determine advantageous positioning. It’s to wring as much cash as possible out of ticket buyers and cable-package-having viewers.

Their new model is European soccer. All top leagues there run two parallel competitions – the league and the cup. It’s a good idea. It’s the reason people feel they must watch Liverpool vs. Manchester City in November, but no one thinks it is absolutely imperative they watch Washington vs. Colorado in January.

People have already become sports grazers. They’ll tune in when it’s compelling. This is how a few hundred thousand regular Raptors viewers ballooned into several million bandwagon jumpers over the course of their championship run, and why the numbers dialled back down once the regular season restarted.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/article-the-nba-is-far-ahead-of-other-major-sports-leagues-in-understanding/

Just to mention that the NBA is essentially looking at doing a European style cup competition but basketball model: a final 8 single knockout tournament mid season. And eliminate leagues games along the way. 

[mtlsab]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 11:48 AM, TFC2017 said:

What if D2 was split geographically? For ex: 3rd/4th divisions in Germany/Italy/Spain. That would cut travel costs, as well as allowing more smaller municipalities to have a team as worst case they'd still have D2 soccer and they'd be playing more locally (For ex: BC teams and Alberta teams in 1 group). The top teams would be able to move up to a "Playoff" between the other region winners and that would decide promotion. 

D2 can't happen if theres no geographical split, at least 3-4 zones. East-West can't work because there is too many teams than can play on the both sides

[Ruffian]

2 hours ago, mtlsab said:

D2 can't happen if theres no geographical split, at least 3-4 zones. East-West can't work because there is too many teams than can play on the both sides

I think it would have to be 3 divisions. Everything west on Ontario, Ontario, Quebec and East Coast.

[Cblake]

Does the CSA have formal standards for D2 leagues/teams like the USSF does?

[mtlsab]

3 hours ago, Ruffian said:

I think it would have to be 3 divisions. Everything west on Ontario, Ontario, Quebec and East Coast.

West (BC, AB, Sask)

Center (Manitoba, Ontario)

East (Québec, Atlantic)