CPL/L1C - Division II - Pro/Rel discussion

[m-g-williams]

My gut tells me that this is going to be a cross-country league in the same sense that the CHL is; teams play in region-specific leagues/conferences/whatever, with the champions of each region then competing for a national title. I'm thrilled to see this happen, but I can't for the life of me picture a semi-pro team from the Lower Mainland regularly pay the travel costs of going to Ontario or Quebec for matches. 

In that same vein, I think that League 1 Canada should definitely adopt a pro-rel model, but in a closed system that rests entirely below the CPL. Keep the CPL separate and let League 1 Canada develop a lower-tier pro-rel model to help build players and develop a stronger pathway, while keeping travel and operating costs manageable. If this could turn into a Canadian equivalent of Australia's National Premier Leagues or a pro-rel version of USL C/USL League One/USL League 2, I think this could go a long way to building a stable, practical means of developing talent and increasing the level of competition without setting up clubs for financial failure. 

[Ansem]

I thought I would post this here since we were talking pro/rel in the CPL thread

 

Is there a need for it?

I think we all see it on the pitch... that gap between L1C and CPL and how some guys might not be CPL level but clearly don't belong in L1 leagues. So there is a need for it - that's undeniable

 

Is there a demand for it?

Objectively, that's a hard one to answer. I think if we talk about communities "having a club" - Yes. Under the current/previous model - No not right now.

League 1 Canada will be a huge factor into getting this D2 movement going by "professionalizing D3" like the president of Soccer Quebec had said. This is clearly within L1O grasp with their pro/rel which makes "professional" soccer attainable and would provide an attractive/appealing product to convert local casual/new fans.

 

Professionalizing D3

By pro/rel in L1O, I mean that ambitious clubs will consistently stay in the top flight while the rest will either stay down and/or fluctuate between leagues. This makes professionalizing D3 much more doable and achievable as focusing on the top flight means that you're working with clubs/owners who have the similar/same goals - you're not trying to force a club who wants to stay small to function above its needs & wants.

This is where getting clubs to agree on higher standards for infrastructure (https://sixfivestadiums.com/) (example 2500 seats modular) and buy into a coherent vision becomes more realistic. If the branding, marketing, infrastructure and ownership works well - it gets easier to build a fan base willing to support a club.

 

Professional D3 Leagues investors & clubs

We know clubs like Blainville, Electric City, Simcoe or Oakville who dream of CPL - at least talked about it. I actually believe the league when it says it has 10, 12 or 16 groups "interested". However when it's time to meet the league standards, they back away or stay on the fence.

As CPL grows and become more successful, it will only get pricier to get in while they seem adamant on the soccer specific stadium at the on set. If presented with an alternative of a "professional D3" operating at lower costs, it think we'd have more clubs/potential investors on board. That option simply doesn't exist as of today and its either "all or nothing". League 1 Canada needs to become the alternative

 

CSB - Players

CSB is key in making this happen should they own all the D3 leagues. Clubs/ownership could buy into CSB and get a share of revenues proportional to their investment which would help those clubs making investment that aren't realistic in a semipro environment. (infrastructure, traveling, hosting V Cup games) etc...

As for players, since CPL and L1C would be under the same umbrella - this could facilitate some kind of legal frame for ensuring compensation to those clubs when players move up (CPL or elsewhere) so they stop losing guys for nothing. This makes that level more attractive for potential investors

 

Building that bridge with CPL

I used to be of the opinion that we needed D2 right after 2026. I just changed my mind, let's take our side and make League 1 Canada as professional and as good as it can be with pro/rel and professional standards in all top tier of L1C. Let's build towards making that League 1 Canada Cup mean something meaningful for this sport in this country. That's kind of what the CHL-NHL relationship looks like --> Clubs all over the place and your local star moving up which converts those locals into following them in the top league. The CPL/L1C branding aligning with one another is another sign that this is what they are trying to do.

 

All of this takes time so I'm totally fine if we're 10 years away from that. Let's give ourselves that time to get

1. CPL into "2.0" era
2. League 1 Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Atlantic setup
3. Bundle League 1 Canada into the next media deal so marquee games can get aired/games aired locally / online
4. Pro/Rel in all the League 1s
5. Expand the V Cup - make the L1 tables look like UEFA qualifiers where there's a fight to finish top 3 or 4 to get into the V Cup.
6. D3 hosting CPL and MLS in the first rounds should be a MUST so they grow their base and get eyes on them
7. Professionalize D3 top tier after introducing Pro/Rel --> set professional standards for League 1 Canada "1.0". At that point, all clubs at that tier participate into the V Cup and the lower tier would have to qualify or decline to do so if they choose.
8. Build the League 1 Canada Cup as big as possible --> Host the final in a CPL/MLS club closest to the host club
9. Announce intent for a D2, establish higher standards (CPL 1.0) and take bids
10. Launch the league and build it up until establishing Pro/Rel makes sense

 

Who knows?

Maybe League 1 Canada becomes our national D2 which would be an organic way to get there.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Ansem

[Kent]

From the CPL General thread:

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I really don't understand what people think the benefit is going to be of a national D2 league even 9 years from now. The two biggest costs of the CPL (not counting the stadiums) are travel (which wouldn't change in a national D2 league) and player salaries. The players are basically forcing the salaries up right now because they're virtually unliveable and there's only so much lower they could go before your product is garbage and you're at the L1 level.  So what owner is sitting there saying "I'm willing to take on basically the same costs as CPL Div 1 but at the D2 level with lower income"?

This is a fair question. My thinking is that the benefit would be...

1. Having more pro teams. I don't think it works well having more than 20 teams in a league. And for our climate it might not be possible to have home/away matches against each team with even 18 teams. You don't want the season too congested, and the weather shrinks the feasible season length as well. I don't imagine it would ever happen in my lifetime, but to have more than 20 pro teams (not including MLS teams) would be best done with a D2 league.

2. As Ansem mentioned, playing level. Having, say, 12 teams in CPL and 8 in CPL2 is probably better than having 20 teams in CPL and not having a CPL2. The 12 team CPL should be less watered down, which can help players reach higher heights. And CPL2 would be a good spot for players that need more experience before they can play at CPL level.

But as I have said before, I don't think any of this is realistic in the foreseeable future. You mentioned even 9 years from now. I'd be extremely happy if we even have 12 CPL teams 9 years from now. I really don't think a D2 league is in the cards that soon.

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, Ansem said:

I thought I would post this here since we were talking pro/rel in the CPL thread

 

Is there a need for it?

I think we all see it on the pitch... that gap between L1C and CPL and how some guys might not be CPL level but clearly don't belong in L1 leagues. So there is a need for it - that's undeniable

 

Is there a demand for it?

Objectively, that's a hard one to answer. I think if we talk about communities "having a club" - Yes. Under the current/previous model - No not right now.

League 1 Canada will be a huge factor into getting this D2 movement going by "professionalizing D3" like the president of Soccer Quebec had said. This is clearly within L1O grasp with their pro/rel which makes "professional" soccer attainable and would provide an attractive/appealing product to convert local casual/new fans.

 

Professionalizing D3

By pro/rel in L1O, I mean that ambitious clubs will consistently stay in the top flight while the rest will either stay down and/or fluctuate between leagues. This makes professionalizing D3 much more doable and achievable as focusing on the top flight means that you're working with clubs/owners who have the similar/same goals - you're not trying to force a club who wants to stay small to function above its needs & wants.

This is where getting clubs to agree on higher standards for infrastructure (https://sixfivestadiums.com/) (example 2500 seats modular) and buy into a coherent vision becomes more realistic. If the branding, marketing, infrastructure and ownership works well - it gets easier to build a fan base willing to support a club.

 

Professional D3 Leagues investors & clubs

We know clubs like Blainville, Electric City, Simcoe or Oakville who dream of CPL - at least talked about it. I actually believe the league when it says it has 10, 12 or 16 groups "interested". However when it's time to meet the league standards, they back away or stay on the fence.

As CPL grows and become more successful, it will only get pricier to get in while they seem adamant on the soccer specific stadium at the on set. If presented with an alternative of a "professional D3" operating at lower costs, it think we'd have more clubs/potential investors on board. That option simply doesn't exist as of today and its either "all or nothing". League 1 Canada needs to become the alternative

 

CSB - Players

CSB is key in making this happen should they own all the D3 leagues. Clubs/ownership could buy into CSB and get a share of revenues proportional to their investment which would help those clubs making investment that aren't realistic in a semipro environment. (infrastructure, traveling, hosting V Cup games) etc...

As for players, since CPL and L1C would be under the same umbrella - this could facilitate some kind of legal frame for ensuring compensation to those clubs when players move up (CPL or elsewhere) so they stop losing guys for nothing. This makes that level more attractive for potential investors

 

Building that bridge with CPL

I used to be of the opinion that we needed D2 right after 2026. I just changed my mind, let's take our side and make League 1 Canada as professional and as good as it can be with pro/rel and professional standards in all top tier of L1C. Let's build towards making that League 1 Canada Cup mean something meaningful for this sport in this country. That's kind of what the CHL-NHL relationship looks like --> Clubs all over the place and your local star moving up which converts those locals into following them in the top league. The CPL/L1C branding aligning with one another is another sign that this is what they are trying to do.

 

All of this takes time so I'm totally fine if we're 10 years away from that. Let's give ourselves that time to get

1. CPL into "2.0" era
2. League 1 Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Atlantic setup
3. Bundle League 1 Canada into the next media deal so marquee games can get aired/games aired locally / online
4. Pro/Rel in all the League 1s
5. Expand the V Cup - make the L1 tables look like UEFA qualifiers where there's a fight to finish top 3 or 4 to get into the V Cup.
6. D3 hosting CPL and MLS in the first rounds should be a MUST so they grow their base and get eyes on them
7. Professionalize D3 top tier after introducing Pro/Rel --> set professional standards for League 1 Canada "1.0". At that point, all clubs at that tier participate into the V Cup and the lower tier would have to qualify or decline to do so if they choose.
8. Build the League 1 Canada Cup as big as possible --> Host the final in a CPL/MLS club closest to the host club
9. Announce intent for a D2, establish higher standards (CPL 1.0) and take bids
10. Launch the league and build it up until establishing Pro/Rel makes sense

 

Who knows?

Maybe League 1 Canada becomes our national D2 which would be an organic way to get there.

Just think you unfactored the women entirely and the women are a key factor in L1.

In fact, teams enter L1BC on the condition they have women's team as well. Similar is happening, though not as exactly, in other L1s. 

Then you factor CSB big when the new proposed pro women's league has the idea of dodging CSB entirely. We'll see how that works. Especially  since they are convinced some CPL teams will join, and that there will be infrastructure sharing with CPL teams.

I see it this way: the financial effort to make a women's pro league work, even at a rather bare-bones level, will condition the growth of both CPL and L1s. Condition in both directions, it could mean financiers, sponsors and backing goes to the women, leaving lower league men's growth stalled. I think this will happen: a men's team will not emerge in a given market but a women's will.

It could also mean positive synergies, such as if two teams are sharing a stadium and it is drawing fans every week. I would have thought that would be a major factor in getting public support for infrastructure in fact. Then the relative efficiency of having a single staff and streamlined departments for two pro teams.

I'll finally address the first point: yes, currently there seems to be a need for a higher level L1 for those players you correctly identify. But if CPL is a goal and these teams develop in all respects, I think that will happen. The Voyageurs Cup has not seen blowouts, and soon enough we'll see a L1 take out a CPL side, when the lower tier teams start training more days a week and professionalise their prep.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ansem]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In fact, teams enter L1BC on the condition they have women's team as well. Similar is happening, though not as exactly, in other L1s. 

I agree that this should be also a requirement for promotion/staying in the top tier of D3

 

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Then you factor CSB big when the new proposed pro women's league has the idea of dodging CSB entirely. We'll see how that works. Especially  since they are convinced some CPL teams will join, and that there will be infrastructure sharing with CPL teams.

I see it this way: the financial effort to make a women's pro league work, even at a rather bare-bones level, will condition the growth of both CPL and L1s. Condition in both directions, it could mean financiers, sponsors and backing goes to the women, leaving lower league men's growth stalled. I think this will happen: a men's team will not emerge in a given market but a women's will.

It could also mean positive synergies, such as if two teams are sharing a stadium and it is drawing fans every week. I would have thought that would be a major factor in getting public support for infrastructure in fact. Then the relative efficiency of having a single staff and streamlined departments for two pro teams.

This might not be the thread for this and this will prove unpopular. I don't think they can have a women's league with the scope they presented without CSB and I doubt CPL clubs join it unless they bring CSB on board. It's in their interest to work with them otherwise CSB will keep cashing in the CanWNT revenues and not put a dime into their league unless they get on board. It's ok that they try to go around them but eventually, they'll go back to them in my opinion - cooler heads needs to prevail here

 

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'll finally address the first point: yes, currently there seems to be a need for a higher level L1 for those players you correctly identify. But if CPL is a goal and these teams develop in all respects, I think that will happen. The Voyageurs Cup has not seen blowouts, and soon enough we'll see a L1 take out a CPL side, when the lower tier teams start training more days a week and professionalise their prep.

Vaughan came close to take out Halifax the 1st year. An upset will happen eventually but the gap between CPL and L1 is widening in my opinion. Professionalizing D3 will help avoid future blow outs and set the stage for a D2

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I agree that this should be also a requirement for promotion/staying in the top tier of D3

 

This might not be the thread for this and this will prove unpopular. I don't think they can have a women's league with the scope they presented without CSB and I doubt CPL clubs join it unless they bring CSB on board. It's in their interest to work with them otherwise CSB will keep cashing in the CanWNT revenues and not put a dime into their league unless they get on board. It's ok that they try to go around them but eventually, they'll go back to them in my opinion - cooler heads needs to prevail here

 

Vaughan came close to take out Halifax the 1st year. An upset will happen eventually but the gap between CPL and L1 is widening in my opinion. Professionalizing D3 will help avoid future blow outs and set the stage for a D2

 

Agree that circumstance may force the women's league back into the arms of the ogre that is CSB. 

As for the gap between L1 and CPL, the key factor always is conditioning, training and prepping like a pro team. If a L1 team is training 5 times a week, has a good medical and physio staff, has nutrition support, and has decent league competition --or goes look for tougher friendlies--then a good coach can help bridge the gap. 

[Kent]

On 2/9/2023 at 4:32 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

The Voyageurs Cup has not seen blowouts, and soon enough we'll see a L1 take out a CPL side, when the lower tier teams start training more days a week and professionalise their prep.

Apologies, this is off topic, but the closest thing to a blow out I could remember was York United losing to TFC 4-0. I had to look up what the biggest blow outs have been in the Canadian Championship, since CPL.

The biggest is York United beating Masters FA 5-0. That was right before the game I mentioned above (both in 2021). The only other 4+ goal spread was TFC beating CF Montreal 4-0 last year.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

Apologies, this is off topic, but the closest thing to a blow out I could remember was York United losing to TFC 4-0. I had to look up what the biggest blow outs have been in the Canadian Championship, since CPL.

The biggest is York United beating Masters FA 5-0. That was right before the game I mentioned above (both in 2021). The only other 4+ goal spread was TFC beating CF Montreal 4-0 last year.

Perfectly in line with what could happen in a Cup match between different tier teams. 

It's really too bad Concacaf club competitions are so weak, because we are going to have CPL clubs competiting, and well, and we are not really going to get much credit for it. And we may get a CPL V-Cup winner and they'll celebrate, but not the way it would merit.